Whats the difference between long/shallow and deep/short?

[bhs]

How do you choose between the two fin settings?

[jjackkrash]

Try both and decide; buy and read @SkiJay's book and decide; or some combination of both.

https://www.finwhispering.com/skijay/

[Jweber]

I recently tried both on my ski, the buoy count result was the same, right about 2 or 3 at 39off with both settings, but the ski did feel different. Long and shallow gave me more tail slide on my off side turn. Deep and short seemed to carry more speed through the turn and have a more consistent carve feeling to the turn. I definitely recommend trying both.

[paul413ski]

Deep short helps me keep more connected out to the buoy line

[BraceMaker]

https://www.finwhispering.com/long-shallow-vs-short-deep-fin-setup/#more-2188

 

Be an interesting process to "blind" test your settings by using a ski buddy to set up your fin.

[aupatking]

Anybody think 2.415 is too shallow? My stock setup is pretty short/deep at 6.840 2.500 0.810. I’m about to setup a second fin box at a Long/Shallow setup. If I take Jay’s standard Delta, the FL and DFT look fine, but that FD seems super shallow. I’m wondering if anyone has run into a “no shallower than X” limit. Either way, it’s worth a swerve, just to see

[jayski]

What about long and deep...

[Horton]

Long & Deep = sore back

[Drago]

...and ankles, and ...

[jayski]

@Horton ask Chet about his Revo settings, I thought it was nuts till I ran them...

[A_B]

My take on the two is that the Deep/Short setup, with fin and bindings back, is a ski that is fast and runs out but requires the skier to have more input into the turn and angle achievement while the Shallow/Long setup helps the ski finish with angle but will not be as "fast" and will not run out as easily and the fin and bindings will need to go forward from the Deep/Short setup. I seem to have to work harder to get the same width on the Shallow/Long setup, just my perception..

[Zman]

@jayski You keeping secrets?

[Horton]

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/20407/long-shallow-vs-short-deep-fin/p1

[jayski]

@zman depends what you are referring too lol

[SkiJay]

If you have a favorite long/shallow or short/deep, here's a handy formula for making a big change and ending up with a ski that still feels pretty familiar:

 

FD∆ x -2.3 = FL∆ (where ∆ signifies "change")

Say your setup is: 2.450, 6.960, .760 and you want to try FD = 2.510.

FD∆ = 2.510 - 2.450 = .060

FL∆ = .060 x −2.3 = −.138

New FL = 6.960 - .138 = 6.822

And the short/deep setup would be: 2.510, 6.822, .760

 

This generalized formula works remarkably well on most skis, and even if it's not perfect on your ski, it will get you close enough for minor fine-tuning.

[Chef23]

@SkiJay why would you don’t that if you are trying to emulate the same feeling. Serious question from me if you are trying to get the same feeling why make the change.

[Drago]

@Chef23 That’s a good general formula so you don’t kill yourself. Trust me, it won’t feel the same.

[SkiJay]

Most skiers tune by feel. But feel can be very misleading. When the tail feels too loose, there may be too much tip in the water which makes the tail feel loose relative to the tip, or the tail may not have enough support despite a perfect tip. Both of these feel so similar they can lead to poor tuning decisions. These tuning miscues then lead to proclamations that shallow is better than deep or vice versa, when in fact one setup was just better optimized than the other.

 

When I'm tuning from the boat or from video, I can see if the root of the problem is tip-engagement, tail support, or skiing technique, then fune-tune accordingly. And when properly optimized, shallow and deep setups perform and feel very similarly. So similarly that when blind tested, I've had pro skiers guess incorrectly which one was which. In other words the deep setup felt like it rolled more and easier than the shallow setup—and ran the same number of buoys. I can explain why these FD extremes roll so similarly another time.

 

Where a very subtle difference remains is at the finish of the turn and through the edge change. If there are differences elsewhere in the pass, one of the setups is better optimised than the other—so go with the best one.

 

And that's why I bother, @Chef23. To demonstrate how similar these too FD extremes are. Then the skier can pick whichever one seemed best, fully optimise it, then forget about the whole debate and ski—happy in the knowledge that the grass isn't greener at the other extreme of FD.

[A_B]

I go with the setup that lets me scramble after a mistake and still salvage passes.

 

There is that “perfect” setup for every skier and likely not the same for all. If you don’t tinker around to find it, and just run what so and so is running, you may be shorting yourself.