When to start edge change

[vtmecheng]

Talking with a couple guys I ski with, the topic of edge change timing came up with respect to boat speed. I'll jump right to the question, saving you the back-and-forth we had. I have seen on here and the Train with Terry video that at 34 mph the edge change should start at the second wake. When the boat speed is reduced to 30 mph, where should the edge change start? Should it be delayed to cut through the second wake or should enough speed be gained by that point to transition?

[Chef23]

@vtmecheng this has been a somewhat controversial topic here. For very good skiers that generate angle and speed out of the ball the edge change should start at the second wake or even earlier. Skiers working on running 30, 32, or 34 mph at 15 off generally don’t have enough speed and angle for that. For those skiers the work zone needs to be longer. I coach those skiers to work through the white water after the second wake then change edges. Once you can run 28 and 32 off at your max speed with reliability you likely have good enough fundamentals to think about changing edges sooner.

 

There are videos of @Sethski and @Horton out there running slower speeds where they change edges behind the boat. Those guys capable of running 38 off and shorter and generate good angle and speed. If skiers that are working on running 30 mph could change edges at the second wake and get out to the buoy they would be running higher speeds and shorter line lengths.

[vtmecheng]

@Chef23, that's a really nice explanation. Thank you.

[Sethski]

@chef23 and @vtmecheng I agree wholeheartedly. The theory definitely indicates that a transition as you pass through the middle of the wakes makes sense on paper, however we aren’t skiing on Paper. And like @Chef23 says, it’s not the speed and line length that is the difference, it’s the fact that people who run faster speeds and shorter line lengths have learned how to generate energy/speed so well that they can transition as the pass through the centerline. I like to tell people that I coach, “as you increase your efficiency and ability to generate speed and as your transition becomes more effective and efficient, you will need to start transitioning sooner.” Cool question and excellent answer @chef23!

[Chef23]

Maybe some of the guys I ski with will believe me know that my thoughts have been reinforced by Seth.

[Horton]

totally agree with @Sethski I would like to add that once you do generate that speed you really do want to transition as early as possible. The longer you are on the line past center the harder it is to approach the next ball correctly.

[Stevie Boy]

San Gervasio Pro Am Event

Watching Freddie Winter in the Head to Head, he appeared to be changing edge significantly later than the likes of Will Asher.

At times he was beyond the second wake, I guess it all comes down to what works for you.

[Chef23]

@Stevie Boy I think sometimes when the pros get to their harder lengths they pull longer. The ideal is still changing edges early for them but everyone reaches a point where the science goes out the window and the focus becomes getting around buoys.

[Than_Bogan]

I am completely in the same camp with @Chef23 on this, but there is an "interesting" school of thought that you should learn by changing in the "right" place and just ski inside buoys until you can generate enough speed to carry out around the buoy.

 

I can sort of see that, BUT that sounds super frustrating to me. Gotta go around some balls!

[andjules]

I agree with @Chef23 right up to the "once you can run 28 and 32 off at your max speed" part. Indeed, 35 off is unforgiving of a late transition, but I think 22 off is the last line length that would work if you're pulling through the white wash. I had a long and unhappy relationship with 28 off until I started getting disciplined about an earlier transition. Then we fell in love, mostly.

[Drago]

@Than_Bogan

Where did that theory come from??

[Chef23]

@andjules I disagree with you about 22 off but I think it depends on the skier. I see plenty of people that run 22 off that don't generate enough angle and speed off the ball to make an early edge change work. I do agree that ideally at 22 off you should start changing edges earlier but it is dependent on good angle out of the ball and good work into the first wake. If those good fundamentals are there an earlier edge change makes sense. Frankly I think as the fundamentals improve the edge change kind of takes care of itself meaning you don't force it but that is a topic for a different thread.

[Than_Bogan]

@Drago On here somewhere. I don't recall who was the main proponent of it, but I distinctly remember them emphasizing that early edge change was much more important than actually going around the buoys.

 

I've never seen it implemented, though, so maybe it was more like "this is how I imagine I'd instruct someone."

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan I remember reading that as well. I don't remember who the proponent was. I agree with Than that it might work but I would think it would be tremendously frustrating to not get around any buoys.

[Drago]

I think it's obsurd.

And I'm very much a believer in changing edges through centerline

[Dano]

I'll chime in as a guy currently working through this. Skiing at 34mph -22 is a gimme and -32 I have not run yet. -28 is surprisingly easy if I simply remember to work less, pull less, change edge ealier, etc... all of those I guess would result in an earlier edge change. Mostly for me if I can relax, get a good gate with progressive lean to the wakes, head up looking to 1 ball, the approach to 1 becomes very controlled and sets the tone for the rest of the pass this goes for every line length I run. If I get excited like a do on my hardest pass. I find I get aggressive and pull/lean harder, lose focus, edge change too late, and turn slack at 1. I know I do it, and yet I still do it. Having said that If I go back to -22 and actively work on the above it's amazing how much easier that pass becomes.

 

[ScarletArrow]

It's an older video... but still relevant.

 

[Andre]

@ScarletArrow

Thanks,i was looking for that one last week!

I think Seth is certainly one of the good coach out there!!!

[andjules]

@Chef23, just to be clear, I agree — for most skiers —22 off is fine, but my point is that 28 off starts to get unforgiving of a long pull, in my experience.

[Horton]

Something many skiers do not realize is that as you lean past the centerline you lose connection. The earlier you can transition the better you can stay connected to the boat. We all pull long but we should really try not to.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Than_Bogan was that under the thread of “worst coaching advice you’ve ever received”? If not, it should have been.

[jdk99]

In this longliner's humble opinion, @Than's proposed alternative isnt that far fetched particularly for novice skiers wanting to advance. The issue was kind of covered in THIS THREAD several years ago and has been foundational in my advancement.

 

A l5 offer who continues to pull long almost certainly will remain a 15 offer. Anyone who is half an athlete and has spent any time on a ski can eventually muscle their way thru 15 off. However, continuing that method disallows progress. Muscling thru by pulling long puts you in a horrible position at the ball, puts you out of position for the lean, which disallows enough speed to transition at the right time...and so the pattern continues stuck eternally at 15 off getting all six buoys with the wrong form. For many, taking a step back and missing some buoys to create the right form might not be a bad idea!

 

Most of you who post on this site are so good that this 15 off transition struggle is one that you've forgotten because you crossed it when you were like six years old!!! :) But for us mere mortals who lurk, this is a really big deal. I personally, for both myself and my kids, have found that the timing of the transition might be one of the most important elements for advancement because of the downstream ramifications of doing it wrongly.

[Wish]

If there is not enough down swing energy to reach buoy line while changing edges at CL then you have to pull past CL to reach BL. Simple. It all starts at the start and how high you need to be on the upswing before the down swing to the entrance gates along with how efficient u can be on the ski. Without that timing from the start, there is no changing of edge at or near CL without skier input to "make it" happen. I'm in the camp of thought to learn this by not trying to turn balls if u are pulling past second wake significantly ...aka as Horton says ending up getting separated. You have to learn the timing to get the edge change to "happen" when it's supposed to, not "do" an edge change at a point you feel or see others do as a general rule. Buoys are a timing mechanism. Lean the timing of the pendulum first and worry about how the edge change looks ..never.

[vtmecheng]

This is really good info! I would love to get into the course with this but bad storms the past few weeks have made it so the ski club course isn't set and the river is a mess. Once we can get a clear week I'll see how things go.

[ozski]

Locking onto the pulling edge way past center line (at shortline) is simply inefficient. To ski the handle path its essential that you transition early around center line, if you can think of being high on the boat rather than wide and being on the inside edge early it starts to make a lot more sense, easier said than done when your out on the water. I think problems can start when skiers progressing through the loops think they need to pull harder / longer to reach the buoy line, any efficiency they have goes out the door as they go to war with the boat so they try / pull harder, the movement they should have though the center is muted by a whole lot of pulling force and gritted teeth and so the transition is often much later as a result. In my opinion you have to learn to trust that 400 plus HP is more than enough to get you out there, do your job from hookup to center line and then learn to use the energy from the boat to get the height / width you need.

[sfriis]

Hmmm I know "pulling short" and change edge early (just after CL) is the new black... but look at CP here running a very nice 41 off... changing edge after 2nd wake wash:

 

 

 

 

Maybe the timing of edgechange is dependent on style and type of ski?

 

I would like hear you experts comments on that :)

 

[Stevie Boy]

@sfriis that is exactly what I was getting at when I made a comment about Freddie Winter he was using similar technique.

There must be a explanation that supports what they are doing, Chris Parrish has one of the best techniques out there, I have just watched older video of him changing edge through the back of the boat.

So what has made him change or is it speed related

[BraceMaker]

What I see in the photo is that his skin has transitioned to flat. He's still on the handle but the ski is under him. It's more under on his onside

[AdamCord]

The position of the edge change is a function of the vector your ski is taking relative to the water. We like to think we have a lot of control over where the edge change happens but we really don’t, at least not directly. The edge change has to happen when the ski goes from sliding slightly to one side, to moving straight across the water, to starting to slide from the other side. At the point of the edge change we don’t have a way to manipulate our speed anymore, but we can change the direction the ski is pointing to more down course, which can give us some control over where the edge change happens.

 

A good way to see this would be to watch videos of someone like CP who is close to technically flawless. At 32off his edge change will be closer to the boat centerline than at 41off, even though he’s probably rather edge change at CL for both passes. That’s because it’s much easier to generate cross course speed at 32 than 41, and he can take a shallower angle at 32. At 41 you can also see there is a bigger direction change that the ski has to make in order to get onto the new edge.

 

In the same way, with a really slow ski your edge change will happen later. Also if your position is inefficient (butt back no stack) you will be slow into the wakes and your edge change will happen later. On the flip side, take your wing off and you will find that you automatically start edge changing much sooner without trying to.

 

I have about half a GUT article written with diagrams showing why this relationship is true. I should really get around to finishing it...

[matthewbrown]

The reason Parrish pulls past centerline at 41 is because he has not generated enough speed in order to initiate the ideal transition earlier as @Sethski so nicely put it. All caused by his hips sinking back and lower starting at the gate. With this heavier load, you will see an all at once edgechange well past the second wake on both sides, not quite as noticeable as DeGasperi, but still not ideal. Ideally, the skier should begin the transition at the first wake, but should take as long as possible to get to the flat ski, and then eventually the other edge. As @Sethski said, your edgechange is a function of how efficient you are out of the buoy so it will change positions from one buoy to the next since you are not a robot. I believe the more important question everyone needs to think about is...”what do I physically do when I initiate the transition?” Because that seems to be a little murkier water.