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$35-40,000 slalom tug. Possible?


jcamp
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Why do we think a boat in this price range would sell? I'd rather buy a used 200 for that price. Please stop comparing boats to building economy cars. The scale of building 1,000's of cars a week compared to a few hand-built machines is apples and oranges. Those cars are cheap because the overhead costs are spread among so many vehicles. Building a boat is more akin to building a high-end sports car (think Mclaren or Bugatti).
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@KRoundy One doesn't drive the Mclaren to work. But we have to use our boats to go ski. Marketing it as a specialty luxury item ignores the true use of a ski boat. As a tug to get you across the water.

 

We are too invested in our expensive boats. So we feel compelled to make excuses to justify the expense. We'd be better off with low cost boats that just reliably pull us. And that our kids might be able to afford.

 

Eric

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@eleeski

Tell that to AWSA with their tow boat rules and policy's! Change the performance ideology to a true competition ideology then you are spot on. but as long as the towboat company's continue to pay to play and AWSA is the only game in town the tournament end of the sport will continue to dwindle and the only ones left in the game are the few McLaren Skiers!

 

I wonder what would happen to USAWS if the show skiers were required to utilize three year old hydrodynes or newer? Or the speed skiers have to utilize boats three year old or newer?

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History shows we won't buy 'em in numbers that make sense...even if overhead is spread over a line of wake/surf boats (that are also using price point strategy against similar offerings from the big 3).

 

Where is Gekko? Where is the CP? Nice boats but seems the market is those willing to spend big for the new big 3, and those that prefer used big 3 to new price point based on quality advantages. There are others out there...people bought Gekko's and CP's, but not enough.

 

It does seem that price point wake boat companies can hang around. Tige, Supra etc.

 

 

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@eleeski Moomba Outback was tournament approved late 90's until 2008ish.

 

By the way, from 2003 on these were decent boats. They fit the description for a cheaper tournament boat but they were meat and potatoes. No fancy appointments. Was the wake as soft as a Nautique? Probably not, but they were (are) more than adequate. Let's put it this way: if you are longer than -38 and you had trouble skiing behind one it was probably the skier and not the boat. Mine skis great and I have no problem going between it and any other brand.

 

 

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Moomba Bommerang, Aztec Coyote, Ski Ray, etc. none are still being made. There are only so many buyers for direct drive inboard ski boats. Get a 196 with a bad motor and take it to Jody for a reporter and ZO. Then you'll have a great practice boat that will last a long time.
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@eleeski I think I did not get my point across, which was focused on production costs. A competition ski boat is a very labor-intensive (expensive) machine built with high-ish overhead costs (molds, EPA requirements, NMMA regulations, custom machined parts, etc... expensive). You can't spread those fixed costs over a lot of machines like you can a mass-produced car. IN THAT SENSE, it is more like a low-production sports car. High overhead costs with few machines to carry those costs equals expensive products. The cost hurdles are high, that's all I am saying.
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The more I think about this, the more I agree with @Horton: this essentially was attempted, it was called a Centurion Carbon Pro, and it didn't really sell well enough.

 

I don't think a startup could make it work out of the gate (and out of a garage), even if they went with a factory-direct model (which would keep the cost down, but would also impede sales & volume).

 

I'd love to see one of the big 3 go in the other direction, like I mentioned above, narrower beam, smaller, lighter boat and a lower price tag. But essentially that was the Carbon Pro.

 

@fu_man I agree, the Moomba Outback was an excellent experiment in the other direction: family/ski hybrid, lower price, nicely done without luxury, absolutely adequate for anyone but the most hard-core , top-tier pro.

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@ALPJr so would you rather spend $35K-$45K for a new Dynaski...or $8K tops for my mint '91 Ski Centurion with a 225 EFI Yamaha, power/tilt steering/barefoot boom/trailer with mag wheels...or a low hours used beautiful Flightcraft or Sanger OB? My boat has all the space and can do everything the Dyna-ski can and more...while looking so cool that rubber necking motorcycle riders crash into road signs near the gas station (that happened).

 

No way I drop big $ on an outboard ski boat in today's day and age (relic technology)...maybe the more fair comparison is what used big 3 inboard can you get in great shape/low hours for the price of a new Dyna-ski. I think I saw a ballers '08 or '09 Lxi just sold on another thread? Gorgeous boat asking in upper $20K's...geez no brainer in my mind, anyway.

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Are unicorns that piss rainbows possible?

 

Will MS stop drinking good beer?

 

Will Horton stop making it complicated?

 

Will Thager stop making me spit coffee out of my nose with his funny comments?

 

Will Super Greg ever beat Skidawg again?

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Well

MS and I just need to “ride it out” for about ten more years....but all you young pups will just have to cough up the money or start thinking it’s ok to have a boat with 1500 hours.

My brother-in-law is buying a Lund fishing boat for 80K....to fish up north in MN!!!

It’s expensive to have fun...how it is...everyone just relax!!! Lol

Or have a drink or 4

 

Oh

WE STILL HAVE ICE TOO!! £%€¥+<|}{\<>€

 

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Hello, I own Dyna-Ski Boats. I can build you an outboard water ski boat near your price point. However if you want an inboard buy one but no manufacturer will ever sell a new inboard water ski boat for a low price. Why should they when people will pay a lot more for them?

 

Dyna-Ski is building a 20' Open Bow with the new Mercury V-6 four stroke for a customer. It has Smart Tow which is a Mercury developed type of speed control type device.

 

You can check out my website at www.dyna-ski.com and blog at www.dynaskiboats.com We sell custom made boats all over the world so I guess we must be doing something right. I have sold 17.6 Open Bows which have a US Coast Guard maximum horsepower rating of 150 hp to many people that slalom and want a small wake. Several people on HP limited lakes have them with a single 75 hp motor.

 

The tournament skiers will always want inboards. They need the status. I won't pay to have a boat certified by USA Water Ski. What's the point? Recreational skiers is a huge international market. Our boats are perfect for many people my customers tell me.

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@DynaSkiPete

The sport would be better off if you sold more boats to slalom skiers. Lowering the cost of skiing is a good thing. I would love to take a ride behind one of your boats.

 

Unfortunately those of us from the competitive side of the sport have become addicted to perfect conditions and boats that are built for our exact needs. We have become too technical for our own good. The culture of the sport is screwed up.

 

As a side note: I have childhood memories of a twin rig Hydrodyne at my Dad's lake. It was a source of a intrigue even back then.

 

 Goode  KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

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I would hazard to guess the majority of us learned to ski behind an affordable outboard boat, unless you grew up on a private ski lake. Congrats @DynaSkiPete seems you have found a niche (or 2-3) and it's working.
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@Jody_Seal

 

We don't just do custom one off megayachts, that is actually a fraction of our business, the majority of our work is with semi-custom and production builders. We currently do a considerable amount of work for the 3 largest boat companies in the world so meeting the demands of a large production that has to maximize both volume and margin is a daily reality.

 

While it would not be easy out of the gate to make happen; from a technical and manufacturing standpoint it is absolutely possible to produce a boat that could be manufactured at that price point. From a parts standpoint a tournament ski boat is one of the simplest boats for any manufacturer to produce as they have very few fiberglass parts to produce and very simple rigging.

 

To make an idea like this work though the key hurdle to overcome is what makes it a compelling product to steer someone away from a used big 3 boat. To me that has to start with a designer and naval architect who can be students of history and understand what has made certain boats great, what makes an attractive product in the given market place, and what can be done to improve performance and user experience without adding cost.

 

So, while it may be a long shot to have a startup come along and produce a budget boat in this segment its certainly possible to make happen with the right people and circumstances.

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Where I work this is what’s we call “a solution in search of a problem”.

 

What is the problem you are trying to solve? Good quality ski tugs in that price range are plentiful in the used market.

 

As everyone says, an economy ski tug has been tried and failed by many manufacturers.

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For me the Dyna-Ski custom building is very cool - get exactly the layout and set up that you want - and the tradition that they come from is at the core of the sport. The 17.6 Open Bow with an Etec 150 has been on my short list of fav's for years.
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MC NXT Prostar. As a young adult trying to work my way into the competitive skiing market, finding a stripped down 14’ prostar has been one of the better things that has happened. It has no rear or bow seats, no carpet, or racks. I was able to buy it at an affordable price and have a nice low payment. As money is available, I will be able to add these features. I got the “best” technology available without the fancy features.

Im not sure if it helps them as a manufacturer on price point, but maybe a series of boats that has limited color choices, actual gauges, possibly a more economic interior option.

Just my .02 from a guy that bought his first boat four years ago to wakeboard, but now obsessed with course skiing.

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This my opinion and mine alone. The closed bow ski boat market is too small .You think we private lake skiers are the whole market for ski boats? You are so wrong .Dyna ski proves it .That Nautique will do well with you guys. Will the average Joe ,weekend wally skier buy it ? Maybe if he makes more money than has, sense. Line length selection for shortlone trough and adjustable plate ? Seriously!!! Who outside of course skiing could give a rats ass. I think this boat just priced and techd out the general public . That boat makes no sense to the average joe .If we want to segregate our sport even more. nautique nailed it. MC did a good job giving us a boat tournament worthy and weekend wally worthy.

 

 

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loucv1m4n81h.jpg

@DynaSkiPete I think your post is cool, and I grew up on outboards. I still own one that was 4 event tournament certified when it was built (traditional 3 plus barefoot), and I also own a Ski Nautique inboard.

 

It's not only technical. The throttle and steering are so much more refined in the Nautique--even tho I have tilt helm/hydraulic steering in the outboard. The inboard has a big platform for donning skis/boards. I can put my ski on as a toe loop guy on mini platform but double binding skiers fall off my mini platforms and boards? Whoa boy.

 

The outboard also dislikes wakeboard/kneeboard speed...wants to plane or sink into the hole unless I have a lot of people in there and trim it right it settles in.

 

Now, the outboard IS pretty versatile, throws a tiny wake, is fun to drive, has lots of space/storage, and looks cool. If I parked each boat on the roadside with a for sale sign I know the outboard would garner FAR more attention and sell way faster than the inboard.

 

So your Dyna-ski is far more marketable to the average skier/skiing family, but the outboard platform has plenty of drawbacks not necessarily related to the technicality of tourney skiing. If it were not for nostalgia (was my late Dad's boat prior), I'd have replaced my outboard due to the issues mentioned above.

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@escmanaze - you are correct. Not sure how many sold retail from the dealer but the msrp on our CarbonPro was in the $70k+ range back in 2016 with the upgraded motor, gel coat, cold weather pack, stereo, etc... That said, I don’t think there is a magic number at which people will stop thinking used/ repower/ Z-Box and buy a brand new boat. So while the CP wasn’t close to $40k out the door, my guess is you would’ve been out the door $10-20k less than a comparably equipped Nautique or Mastercraft.

 

I’m hoping someday it finally gets the respect it deserves in the resale market and the values sky-rocket like air-cooled Porsches. That is probably a similar fantasy to thinking a $35k slalom boat is going to be brought to market.

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@DynaSkiPete Awesome boat! Thank you for offering that.

 

My complaint with outboards is the cost. There are literally millions of automotive engines at very reasonable cost available for marinization. That model kept direct drive ski boats with a common V8 very cheap. No idea why that model isn't valid today (note that Ilmor recently did their own conversion quite successfully - but they are quite proud of it $$). Big HP outboards are expensive because they are custom designed from the pistons up. Weight and size are critical so careful engineering is required everywhere in the product. The outboard itself is the major cost component of a ski boat.

 

Of course, you can make your outboard new by getting a new engine. Much easier than converting an old American Skier.

 

Eric

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@6balls Luv the ski centurion.I also grew up on outboards and had several hydrostreams and they are fantastic for footin and slalom.Dyna-ski boats are well made and offer a great ski boat for the outboard person.I had a Gekko GTR for 16 yrs and really miss that boat however still get to ski it as its on my lake. Gekko boats were bought by Floe Industries of McGregor,MN recently and they are not making a direct drive right now.When Mark brought the company back to life in 2015 the boats were made in Little Falls,MN by Larson boats however it did not last long.I personally think it is the best bang for your buck and for me the wake and pull is the best.People it seems would rather spend $40,000 on a used big 3 boat rather then a new Gekko.A couple yrs ago a Gekko dealer in CA. tried to sell a new 2015 Gekko GTR for $39,900 and it took him over a yr and I think it ended up selling for around $32,000.They are fantastic boats and people who own them love and keep them.I have had 4 boats since selling the Gekko and still think its the best ski boat for me..........

 

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Yes, a $40k price point is possible, the question is whether enough of them could be sold to sustain a business building them. The bill of materials could include an Indmar or PCM 350HP state of the art drive line system, ZO, analog dash with digital engine management, digital throttle and shift, decent interior, acceptable amenities and nice trailer with brakes. In other words, you wouldn't have to sacrifice on the mechanical or hull performance aspects, but don't expect billet badges. The OEM margin considerations would render such a venture a labor of love more than a business opportunity. Please don't look at the ROI on this, the business metics say the numbers may not work! Specifically, if the OEM made about $5000 per unit, about 100 per year of them would have to be sold just to cover minimal G&A, insurance, marketing, sales and other expenses. As others have said, used boats from the big 3 impact the reality of a new boat in this space.
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@gman your comments I think highlight the issues. While technically it is possible to build a boat at this price point it doesn't make business sense. There isn't enough margin or volume to make it financially worthwhile. Unless someone is independently wealthy and doesn't care about money I doubt it will ever happen.
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@DynaSkiPete out of curiosity, are there tracking fins on the 20'? Have you ever driven or seen a shortline skier run the course with one? Can it get moved around a good bit or does it track frailly well? I like how far forward the pylon is. Also how big of a motor can be placed on the 20'? 3w9wryy4v1cx.jpeg

 

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There are many I/O runabout and jet boats that cling to the 30-40k range quite successfully while being in the 19-21 foot category - but what's missing in this world is incorporating some more of this ski tech into boats that would sell the volume needed to get into that price range. Honestly I don't need to own a Prostar 190, but I also don't need a boat that costs 50% of my house. ;)
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It would be interesting to see the pricing and sales data on the Moomba Outback over the years it was available. As pointed out above, it was probably the last popular direct drive ski/family-hybrid boat that was priced a significant notch below the big 3 (the gekkos were never popular, at least in my neck of the woods). It would also be interesting to see the growth in wakeboard/surf boats from the early 90s to today (when it peaked, the degree to which it has slowed) and compare that to industry trends for family runabouts. It seems to me that family-oriented ski boats faced increasing pressure in the face of wakeboard/surf interest, to the point of near-extinction by 2010. But over the same time, the cost of ski & surf boats inflated well past the general rate of inflation (probably due to shrinking volumes and a cultural shift away from "lake life" vacationing). It sure seems to me (without industry data on hand) that wakeboard/surf boat pricing has gotten out of hand and sales have slowed, making me wonder if the conditions that led to the demise of the Outback have eased up at all.

 

I realize this post is going in a different direction than the rest of this thread (which is focused on a tourney-skier's single-purpose slalom tug), but it seems to me that a low-cost boat either has to: (i) have a broad enough appeal to sell enough volume to compensate for low volumes; or (ii) (if it's going to be a dedicated shortline-slalom boat) be a garage-based labour-of-love by semi-hobbyists who don't care (or are delusional about) the potential to scale volume.

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A nice inboard water ski boat could be produced in the $40,000 to $50,000 easily. The biggest problem is all the shoppers would compare it to the much more expensive boats being built by the big 3 making it a tough sell. There are many other issues. It costs a lot of money to get a boat approved for use at tournaments. Manufactures spend a lot of money marketing their boats. Way more than you can imagine. They also want to make a healthy profit. Dealers want to make a lot of money. This is all reflected in the price buyers pay. Dyna-Ski Boats operates on a smaller margin with no active dealers. Custom made to order. They are not for hard core skiers but many people like our boats.
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I don’t think the Moomba Outback is a great comparison. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the Outback was about $30k in a day when you could get a new, stripped 196 for under $40k. Who wouldn’t go with the tournament approved 196?

 

I think the Carbon Pro had a similar issue. When our ski team was shopping for boats a few years ago, we were quoted factory direct on a base Carbon Pro with a trailer in the high $40s. For a similarly outfitted 200, we were in the mid $50s.

 

For this to work, the slalom tug would have to give material savings over the Big 3. When you factor in the lack of dealer network to provide easy maintenance/warranty, I do not think either of the examples above provided material-enough savings to really attract attention. Given today’s Big 3 prices, I think the tug would have to stay under $40k to have a chance (I do not have nearly enough experience to know if this can be done - will continue to defer to the experts). But once we are talking $50s, I think it’s game over.

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I think a decent quality boat that performs well could be produced in this price range. However I don't think it can be marketed as a pure ski boat. It would have to have a broader appeal and be able to handle public water. Think weekend warrior who's family needs a boat too. It would have have the folowing:

- Higher freeboard - running surface can be same as a tournament boat.

- ZO

- next to no options - Think early 90's boat but with 2018 hull and power train.

 

I don't think a new startup can have have any success with this, however an existing manufacturer who already has hull design, molds, tooling, and facilities likely could pull this off. They also would have the reputation to market such a boat to the serious skier.

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@OSUwaterskier the Moomba Outback was around for at least 10 years, and pricing changed a lot over those years. I certainly remember in the mid-2000s neighbours being able to negotiate (regardless of MRSP) upper/mid-30s ($Canadian) for an Outback at a time when a new Nautique or Mastercraft would be > $50k out the door, and a Response might have been just shy of $50k (again, $Canadian). So, at least at some point, we we're talking a good 25%+ difference.
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Often times manufacturers molds wear out so it makes more sense to come out with new models than to make molds to produce the same old boats. Manufacturers don't keep worn out molds they destroy them. Consumers often think they need the newest version and manufacturers want to sell you a new boat as often as possible. Bigger boats don't cost much more to build but the can charge more for them. OOPS . . . . . I told you some of the boat companies secrets.
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The flighty ad above..."re-lunch"?

Anyhoo...when my bro's Barefoot Warrior was stolen (really), we test drove/skied Flighty outboard and the Sanger outboard as well as the Flighty inboard. Jim had money down on a Flighty inboard...was a really fun boat. Tiny, super easy to take water over the nose at idle and low speed. Wake if I remember a hint of an "outboard" shape to it as opposed to traditional inboard. Then Jim backed out of the deal when the police found his stolen boat and it was returned months later.

Such a tiny little inboard can't think it's going to leave a mark...but it's a mighty fun drive!

 

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