$35-40,000 slalom tug. Possible?

[jcamp]

A couple people I've talked to lately seem to think it is doable. But then I've also heard the emissions standards, changes in engine blocks, cost of fiberglass, etc., make it impossible. What do you all think? Why or why not?

[aupatking]

Hard to believe cars can be built and sold for $10k but a boat can’t for $40k. I don’t have any industry knowledge though, so I’d have to abstain from a vote

[Chef23]

I have no way of knowing if it is technically possible but I don't think there is a business model that makes sense. A boat in that price range would be low margin and companies that make low margin products generally sell a lot of them. I don't think a company could sell enough boats in that price range to have it make business sense given the demand.

[LoopSki]

I personally know of one in the works that will be closer to that price point . First version will be an outboard geared towards barefooters. The DD version will soon follow. The OB version is scheduled to be complete by May. I may swing by factory today to see status. Sorry no pics yet.

[Not_The_Pug]

I voted no way because I don't think a boat company could survive on a boat at that price. Yes a low cost version could be built. The car companies support the low cost cars with more profitable versions or models. Plus their is a huge market for cars vs. boats. A boat is a luxury item for most people, whether is is at large surf boat or an entry level Bayliner.

[oldjeep]

You could build it, but most folks would either keep their 20 year old boat or buy a used boat of their favorite brand. The boat you describe already used to exist - Gekko, and nobody bought them.

[LoopSki]

Small hint of whats coming down the line .

 

 

[andjules]

I don't think $40k can be done anymore, but that doesn't mean $100k should the only price point for new.

That said, between the used market (for most of us?), and a handful of wealthy customers (who'll complain, but ultimately seem) willing to spend ~$80-100k, I'm not sure there is much of a space for a $50 or $60k boat from a garage startup and likely to feel very barebones. The first reviews for a startup would of course be silly stuff like "the driver's seat isn't as nice as the Nautique" and "the hole shot seemed a little weak" and the next thing you know it's just seen as inferior.

[RazorRoss3]

Mechanically I have to imagine you could get something that just clears the bar in terms of performance at that price point but there is no boat company on earth that would do it, the economics don't make sense unless Wal-Mart decided to get into ski boat production.

 

Lets face it, if I have the capacity (through any mix of cash and financing) to get my hands on a 35-40K boat, and have the option of a no-name-bare-bones or a pick your age big 3 off of ski-it-again I can tell you where I'm spending my money every single time.

[swc5150]

I think it can be built, but I don't think it would sell. History seems to have proven this. Buyers just tend to buy a used CC or MC before a bargain brand.

[Wish]

@LoopSki I thought Bu owned/purchased Flightcraft. Did they buy the molds back or get the name back or just a completely different company with the same name?

[Ilivetoski]

It might be a low margin boat, and yes low margin products normally need a lot of sales to keep the company alive... but let’s not act like ski boat sales is what is keeping the manufactures in business. If them staying alive depended on ski boat sales they would have all gone under a long time ago.

 

That said- I would buy a 2012 200 over a $40K new barebones (even if it was a barebones big 3) every time.

[LoopSki]

@Wish , Flightcraft name is back to the original owner.

[bigskieridaho]

It’s funny I was just having this conversation with my wife. Obviously started with the New SN. I am still a bare bones type of boat person. I don’t need all the screens and functions that are confusing at best. A speedo, tach, engine stuff, and ZO is just fine. High tech construction, nope. Flashy...Nice but no. Interior can be nice without all the flash, but have great quality. Heater and shower are a must. Don’t get me wrong, I like creature comforts and a nice boat, but can’t we have options from ground up without having to pick all of items up front if we don’t want them? Sounds like I am explaining the carbon pro hmmm. My Malibu is sweet with most options, however it is a 2009 because that’s what I could afford. Does everything you would need a boat to do. Same comes with cars or trucks. As I noticed a lot of cars are going to turbo 4, 6’s. What happened to the beast V8? Oh yeah emissions.... I get we need good air quality, but once again the cars from the 60’s were cheap and awesome! Either way, I am stuck buying used cars, boats, etc because nothing is affordable anymore. Used stuff serves the same purpose, and more than likely are more user friendly and fun to drive(cars). When I am done with this boat, I will be able to afford the ones out now which is cool with me:) rant over.

[Jody_Seal]

This one is funny!

A new $50K-$60K tug could be reality. Many or most of you are clueless as to what it takes in today's world to bring a 20' Inboard to market. The engine package alone is the biggest single cost of the boat, oem cost is right at $10K. Fiberglass resin and material will run in the $7K then there is electronics, upholstery, gas tank, windshield and hardware another $10K. Then There is overhead and labor $15K. So that leaves a builders margin with about $8K profit per unit provided one is trying to sell it factory direct!

Reminder every one of our boats are truly "custom" built boats. This industry is far different then that of the Automotive industry with all the same government restrictions or maybe even more. try building a sub 20' boat and the cost goes up due to flotation requirements.

Now a outboard 20' tournament boat could be built and sold for that $35-$40K provided it was spartan.

My numbers may be a little high but still well within the ball park.

Challenge on!!

[Orlando76]

I’m not sure if it could be done for 40k but close to it. But in reality nobody wants bare bones. I myself seek bare bones but how many XL fords do you see vs. Lariats and Platinums? Everybody has to keep up with the Jones’. And Gekko didn’t survive because the goofy fugly windshield.

[lmt383]

Dyna-ski is already built their 17.6 model in that price range with o/b power between 90-150 hp motor.

dyna-ski.com

 

dynaskiboats.com

[oldjeep]

- And Gekko didn’t survive because the goofy fugly windshield.

 

Give me a break. The Gts20 was the prettiest boat on the water, and the absolute definition of what people keep saying they want - ZO in a cheap package. I think all this shows is that people (who are actually going to buy a boat) don't actually want what they say they do, they want what the mfg are producing and actually selling.

 

[ALPJr]

@LoopSki this is fantastic!

[Ilivetoski]

one of my close friends sells boats at the local MasterCraft dealer, base sticker on a new Prostar is $79K... according to him if you offer $60K on a base they will normally take that. I’m not sure if a base prostar even includes ZO so you might have to go a little higher than that to get in a ZO boat, but that’s probably as cheap as you can get a brand new 2018 ski boat

[Horton]

This new 40K boat - do you expect it to

1. track as well as the big 3

2. have wakes on par with the big 3

3. drive as well as the big 3

4. have the same "feel" from the skiers perspective as the big 3

5. have the same build quality as the big 3

 

Having talked to some industry folks a lot about this subject I would say it is not doable.

 

The Centurion was a great boat and it costs a chunk less than the big three. I believe that the biggest problem with the business side of the Carbon Pro was that most skiers did not believe it was as good as it was. I think a lot of skiers thought it made more sense to get a one year old Promo boat than a new Carbon Pro.

 

 

[Broussard]

@Ilivetoski base Prostar includes ZO

[Horton]

@Live2ski I think your numbers are a little light. A smart buyer is unlikely to pay MSRP but 60k for a brand new ProStar does not sound right.

[Ilivetoski]

@Horton it might be, that’s just what I was told from a MC dealer. Again, that is base with no options on it..

[LoopSki]

I got mine last year for that plus tax. Not base model .

[Ilivetoski]

The exact words from the dealer were “you can get a base prostar for $79K, that’s retail so go ahead and take $20-$25K off that”

[A_B]

It might be a stretch to get that low, but I for sure think a $50-$60K boat should be possible. Comparing to a 2018 Cobalt (who I think is a pretty solid mfg) 20-footer for around $58K, there is a lot less weight in a ski boat hull (less materials), no head (porta potty), not as wide, and I have to believe a Borg Warner Transmission for an inboard is far less costly than an outdrive.

 

Form a new mold off a TSC hull, put about 340 hp in it, with basic interior, and hardware, along with a new wide angle mirror, and I believe that would be at least half of the new ones. Maybe the wakes are a touch off of the new hulls, but the pickup is better fuel economy.

 

I would sell my 2007 with 1100 hours on it in a heart beat for all new.

 

 

 

 

[swc5150]

Is Gekko still making a DD?

[oldjeep]

@swc5150 - hard to tell what Gekko is doing any more. I do know that the former owner was driving a new Prostar last summer.

[Wish]

@Jody_Seal with current flotation regulations is an old 196 hull even possible to manufacture these days?

[UWSkier]

I don't see manufacturers yielding valuable build slots to low margin ski tugs, especially when more of these companies are publicly-traded these days.

[Keith_Menard]

I have a used Gekko, and everytime I would call Mark he was super helpful and responsive. I also love the boat.

 

I think the issue for a budget boat though...or any new boat for that matter...is people want to see if the company will be around longer than the warranty. It is a total catch 22. You can't have a company last if no one buys them, but people won't buy them if they don't know the company will last.

 

Also, everyone SAYS they want a barebones boat...as long as the barebones boat is sexy, has heated seats, a stereo, 6.2l engine....

 

[andjules]

One observation is that (a) many, many people on this site (and we are a minority in the larger market) ski on private sites in club-like settings with 1-3 (max) people in the boat, never using the boat to cruise around with the family; and (b) particularly in the mid 90s, ski boat design evolved to satisfy growing interest in wakeboarding, and became more-and-more family oriented (wider beam, higher freeboard, leading to heavier weights, and more "comfort"/solidity).

 

The point I'm trying to make is that for a lot of us, going back to a barebones 2200lbs, 88" beam boat with ~ 300hp would actually suit our needs better (imagine a mid-80s Mastercraft with a 5.0L ZO and a few wake & spray refinements). But we've been spoiled by the luxurious feel of these wide, heavy, powerful boats (would be like switching from a GMC Suburban to a mid 90s Mazda Miata).

 

Side note: when Toyota had their short-lived experiment in tournament ski/wakeboard boats, their boats were powered by a marinized 4.0L aluminum block Lexus. Didn't have quite the low-end power (but who actually wants/needs a stronger hole shot?!), but they used about half the fuel of a classic 5.7L.

[JAS]

Another idea is a refurbished/re-power business. Lots of great boats out there that could be made like new with new interior,carpet and gel detailing. I have a 99 SN that I bought new. Has 1700 hours and is a gem. No holder for my hull plug though. (might have to look for aftermarket accessory)

[ALPJr]

If I remember right the Flightcraft outboards weighed in at just under 2000 #'s with a V6 OB and trailer. They pulled pro events (STJB) all over the world about 20 years ago. They're not like today's big three by any means, however I think that they can do a great job with about 90% of what most skiers want to do, are easily trailered by mid-size vehicles, go fast when you want to and are easy on fuel at cruising and skiing speeds, and look super.

[jjackkrash]

Just a catalytic converter adds a stack of cash to the price of a marinized inboard. And a 200 or so HP new Yamaha outboard has a dealer invoice around $18k-21k. So new outboards are not cheap either.

[Jody_Seal]

@JAS

That is what I have been trying to do for the last 13 years here at Florida Inboards, However when a owner starts looking at the cost to re-power, install zero off, re-upholster and gel and the misc the answer always comes back well I will just go by a used promo or newer boat. Again a non cat 343 with trans sitting on my floor is around $11K. Zero Off $1600, Skins and install $3500-$4500 .

There are a Dozen very nice ZO powered 196's on the market for under $30K!

Unless one can do this stuff their selves it is a better proposition just to sell what ya got and get into a nice used ZO boat and move on!

 

Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

 

[Bdecker]

Could it be done, maybe. Is there a viable and profitable market for it, no way. Centurion proved that the market for a specialty boat at a lower price point without one of 3 names on the side doesn’t have enough market to justify the opportunity cost of producing it. I love our CarbonPro btw!

 

You can now buy a carbon infused, closed bow boat with presumably a great slalom wake, PCM motor and sea deck floors for twice the price! Maybe centurion just missed the boat on the iPad controls.

[RAWSki]

There is a lot of brand loyalty in boats too that's hard to change.

The Centurion was originally convinced as a basic ski-tug for skiers.....target priced in the high 40's. But once it was put together and added things like stereos, heaters, heated seats and metal flake the price went higher. It was a hard sell for dealers that had not been selling ski boats for more than a decade, when they had people lined up for wake machines that cost much more. And many people thought the CP looked 'cheap' with all that sea-deck flooring and no carpeting.....(Who Knew!?)

 

 

[MuskokaKy]

I hate agreeing with @Horton but to add to his point

 

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

 

Sure you can build a 35k boat and ski behind it...but it wont be at the level many of us have come accustomed to. It would be hard for any company to explain this crazy trend in prices; especially when they have next to no R&D ( please manufacturers don't pretend like you do)....motor is someone else's, most of the tech in it is as well.....they mold fiberglass!! no respect for the major 3 but I do own a current model. lmao

 

On a side note is there way to see how many boats are actually sold / build sheeted each year. I see there are lots of pro boats and such....are the guys who actually buy the boat paying for a pro to have one for free? that may explain part of the $130k nautique

[skierjp]

@MuskokaKy nothing in R&D, are you serious. I bet Nautique has over 1M in R&D in the Ski Nautique. This project has been in the works for more years then anyone knows. Just factor the wages of a couple engineers for that time frame it would blow your mind.

[Gar]

Wonder how many Nautique employs? Sure they have significant overhead thus must have the 105k msrp or lose and go under hope they never do like all of the big three owned all except Mastercraft.

[MuskokaKy]

@skierjp , absolute chump change! Nautique is a peanut company. 1MM Lmao. And I think your way light on that. When you get into 9 figures then your blowing minds. Don’t give more credit then necessary. It’s not a engineering marvel. It’s a slight improvement, at best, on a hull design. Guts are the same or some tweaked a little. As far as engineers I have a group of ten on contract. Great minds who can barely dress themselves. The sad part is you have to pay for ten mistakes to end up with a good result. So maybe not that brilliant...

[MCskiFreak]

It absolutely could be done...but that really isn't the correct question. The correct question is would it make good business sense for a start-up to come in and target that market. If someone wanted to run a niche company turning out the boats factory direct or through a very limited dealer network it would work, it is when you get into large dealer networks that require a large mark up that the idea of a cheap ski boat becomes unpalatable from a cost to the builder standpoint.

 

It is the norm in the luxury yacht sector for the dealer/broker to have a higher profit than the manufacturer, so for everyone to make a buck costs have to go up.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with @Jody_Seal comments on cost of goods, as well as the ability to compete with the big three out of the gate.

 

The firm I work for puts new builders into business every year and we are known for being able to set up a start-up with a product that is world class right out the gate from a design and performance standpoint. From what I have seen many of the budget brands suffer greatly in the design from what seems like a lack of direction and a cohesive look to the design; I would say that even applies to the centurion. At the end of the day it really does not cost any more to put a good looking boat into production then it does an ugly one.

 

From a PD&E standpoint a budget of 150-200k would get my attention to take the project on and do all the design and engineering of the boat with the exception of the electrical componetry which is where a huge amount of PD&E dollars are spent by the tow boat companies.

 

If the hypothetical builder then budgeted 250-300k for CnC tooled plugs and molds I believe they would be off and running being able to produce a competitive boat.

 

Where a budget boat runs into trouble is cost control on the labor and subcontracted parts.

 

Engines are the single largest cost per boat to a builder and Jody is probably pretty close at 11k per engine for a low volume builder.

 

Composites costs would be much lower I believe...I'm currently building a 36' RHIB and a full glass and core kit for that boat runs ~ 13k. I would estimate raw material cost for composites would be in the 3-5k range.

 

As I said though I am not sure it would make a great business model without being able to quickly fill in with wake and surf models to increase volume and drive down unit cost on goods.

[Jody_Seal]

@MCskiFreak

Challenge on!

Yea one off building is one thing try designing and bringing to fruition a production unit.

Having been on every rung of the ladder from project design initiation all the way through every process including hands on tooling, parts list gathering and fitting, all testing, Assembly line indoctrination right on through off the line out door sales and marketing. Impossible to build a composite inboard tournament Ski boat that can compete at any level with what the big three has to offer with trying to stay within the confines of $35K-$45K in today's world. Again at best a small builder could get by utilizing generic components but would have to establish a unit build number of about 75-100 to make it a profitable endeavor if they sell factory direct at $55K-$60K. Centurion could not build that many!

Been there done that!

[Golfguy]

Yes it is possible, the company is called The Used Boat Company. :)

[LLUSA]

@Horton MC was running an ad not long ago for $59,999 I believe.

[ALPJr]

Looking forward to seeing if a Flightcraft comes to be. There are other options like Dyna Ski who builds boats to order - not a big 3 tourney boat but an option that's good for 90% of skiers.

[eleeski]

Challenge on? A quick internet search shows a new 20' Bayliner with trailer retailing around 30k with the 5.7 engine stern drive and a ski pylon. Nice looking boat.

 

Moomba, Gekko and others have built much less expensive tournament style boats. I'm not buying one because they haven't gone through the AWSA acceptance so they can't be used in a tournament (old big three boats can). AWSA testing had better not add 30k to the price. But they prove that technically it can be done.

 

The tournament market is very small with little general interest outside tournament waterskiers. Will we get an inexpensive tournament boat? I fear not.

 

Unless this ZO American Skier project gets out of control!

 

Eric

[ALPJr]

AM Skier pic's @eleeski ?