Baller Carl Posted April 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 21, 2018 There is a image of Larkin posted earlier either pulling out for the gate or maybe turning 2/4/6. How do you think he is able to get that much ski in the water in the stance he is in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jimski Posted April 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 21, 2018 @carl that's the first thing I noticed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller vernonreeve Posted April 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 21, 2018 What is Cords 39 off windshield drill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gavski Posted April 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 21, 2018 Tuning your ski for 38’ and accepting what you get 28-35’ is an interesting concept...and i echo @bradb’s question. I think i inadvertently managed this a few years back, but didnt think anything of it at the time. I was working on my gate setup, using 2 buoy as a 0 ball - so 3,4,5,6 got renumbered 1-4..anyway, i ran down the line 28-38’. Missed my 35’, but cut to 38’ anyway - smoothest pass i had skied in a longtime. Suddenly the ski felt right..typically, I thought this was a one off, so i never revisited or repeated the experiment. I think after this point, i transitioned into a hardshell, and never consistantly skied as well since...until now....thanks to @adamhcaldwell, i think i have finally created a great binding. I will post my set up on the optimal slalom binding thread.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Deep11 Posted April 22, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 22, 2018 That Mapple video is also interesting in that is shows the skier being much more “leaned over” at 28 compared to 38. Even coming off the wake - this to me suggests that the initial 28 connection was likely more aggressive than the 38? But even so I’m guessing most skier swoudl expect the skier to be more leaned over at 38. ( argument about taller skiers having it easy doesn’t seem to hold here?) Can’t really see if the point of release is different - in terms of being pulled up on the boat before releasing keeping you more vertical as @adamhcaldwell mentioned in his reply to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 22, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 22, 2018 @Deep11 - The intensity Mapple takes at 28 is on purpose. Yeah, he could take it easy and run a stand up pass with no lean, and probably keep two hands on the handle, but the reality is that the ski isn't setup to turn well when running 'flat' into the buoy without speed. Its setup to turn at 38/39/41 where the speeds are higher and bank angles are much higher through apex & finish. Another element we see in his side-by-side video is the differences in 'rope apex' at 28 off, the rope has apex'd much earlier (stopped moving in an upward swing) and he can effectively start letting the ski rotate start moving back to CL much earlier, because he is at buoy width further up course. Note that he took a ton of energy off the second wake, so there is ample lift being generated as the ski continues to slide outbound and support his mass/pressure on the ski. Conversely, due to the shorter line at 38, he is still traveling out bound almost all the way to the ball. At any line length, if you let the ski move out too soon of the second wake and begin to lean inward too far to early, you have no were else to go when you finally make it to the buoy and need to actually "reach". This really becomes the demise of most skiers when they reach short-line. They are trying to hard to get the ski to go wide, without getting their COM wide first. To do that, we need to travel around the pylon faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 22, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 22, 2018 @bradb - I think its going to depend a lot on the individual and what the strengths and weakness are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lieutenant Dan Posted April 23, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 23, 2018 @adamhcaldwell I am really loving the insights provided in this thread. May I request that the next GUT thread be about how to achieve (as @Gloersen stated above regarding Andy Mapple) an "incredible downswing"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DefectiveDave Posted April 23, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 23, 2018 @Lieutenant Dan , Isn't that kind of what the other GUT articles already cover (among other things)? First, you need to have enough speed, height on the boat, and course width before starting the downswing (either at the gate or rounding a buoy). Then the goal is to move efficiently without generating excess load in order to generate speed into centerline. This can be achieved by keeping the COM in the optimal position over the ski. However, I'll admit that knowing "what" to do and "how" to do it are entirely different things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 23, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 23, 2018 @Lieutenant Dan The trick is to execute the pre-gate sequence correctly such that the rope is already initiating a downswing acceleration before you roll the ski in off the glide path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lkb Posted April 23, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 23, 2018 When you look at where you are when the ski actually gets pointed cross course and the line comes tight, how does this affect where the edge change can happen? In other words, does getting to change edges right at centerline hinge on having a tight line and perfect timing at the buoy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 23, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 23, 2018 @lkb Edge changing at CL hinges on how much energy you created before CL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lkb Posted April 23, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 23, 2018 @adamhcaldwell how do you optimize energy creation if the line comes tight later than optimum? Talking about this makes me wonder about something I think I remember seeing: Isn't there video of Andy M running 39 without really pulling out for the gate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 23, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 23, 2018 @lkb The energy of the skier is a function of the swing-speed of the rope around the pylon. The swing-speed of the rope in the downswing is dependent upon how fast the handle and the pylon move away from each-other before reaching CL. The more aggressively the skier can decelerate downcourse speed, the faster the boat will move away from the skier AND the faster the rope will swing around the pylon. You don't need to be wide necessarily, but the narrower you are the more aggressively you have to decelerate your down-course speed before CL to still create enough swing energy to catch up to the boat after crossing CL. And be able to do that while sustaining a connection off the second wake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @lkb I think the video is from Mapple skiing Ski Paradise and running 35 off @ 36 mph without pulling wide for the gate. My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lkb Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @Andre thanks for correcting me @adamhcaldwell thanks for the input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 24, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 24, 2018 @lkb - to follow up, setting up a great downswing is all about starting early enough before the course to allow the 'space' and 'time' for everything to happen. The trend for the last 15years seems to be to 'start' the pullout when the bow hits the 55s. With GUT, we aim to see skiers at least already be passing the platform when the bow hits the 55s at 36mph. For 34, this just shifts down a little, and maybe the skier passes the platform when the platform is at the 55s - depending on RFF/LFF or how efficient the ski/skier is on the water. If your starting the pullout when the bow hits the 55s, then your probably not allowing enough time and space for the downswing to start before you roll in off the glide. If the pullout is late, then the downswing is forced by rolling in off the glide. We want to aim for the downswing phase to start before we even begin to roll & turn the ski back in toward CL. This is one of the few camera angles that will highlight this timing and setup. Pulling out early, effectively and efficiently is the first step to producing a powerful downswing into the gate. Again - most high level skiers figure this out. For reference; Goat at 36mph. Here is the Goat at 34mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @adamhcaldwell When you start your downswing,is your speed the same as the boat,slightly greater,slightly less ? Pix of Andy is making me realize that the 55's is way too late for me to pull out...(at least for me) My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 24, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 24, 2018 @Andre The downswing dynamic should start in the glide, while still at max width. The only way for that to happen is for your speed to decelerate slower then the boat while still having enough energy to stay up on plane and at be riding the ski at max glide width. The initial roll & turn in of the ski should not happen until after the rope has already initiated a downswing motion around the pylon. This is the timing issue most skiers struggle with. They're using the turn-in of the ski as the mechanism to create the downswing motion. This is not as effective as getting the downswing to start before turning the ski in from the glide. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @lkb @Andre - you're both referring to footage from gordon rathbun's ' slalom with andy mapple ' dvd. those skiing sequences were shot at diablo shores in brentwood ca, and mapple runs 35 off 38 off and 39 off on the video, starting his gate each time from just outside the white wash of the wake. they're referred to as ' no gate (narrow) ' passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DefectiveDave Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @mwetskier , Is this the one? link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted April 24, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 24, 2018 @DefectiveDave Looks a lot like it! I remember Gordon in it and thought it was shot at ski paradise... My failing memory (getting old suck!) seems to think there was also a pass in a course where 1,3,5 balls was on the left and 2,4,6 on the right... @adamhcaldwell Totally make sense. Seems like i was doing many things wrong on my gate. Gonna have a lot of things to practice this early season. A lot! My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted April 25, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 25, 2018 @DefectiveDave -thats the one @Andre -some footage *was* shot at ski paradise in acapulco, but the bulk of the mapple footage was staged from greg badals house on diablo shores. notice the luxury homes along the shoreline. not a lot of those along the river at ski paradise. pretty sure the left handed course was shot in acapulco -rathbun had one when i was there a number of years ago. at one point gordon (lff) had lobbied for an ambidextrous course in tournaments, believing he was at an unfair disadvantage vs rff skiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DefectiveDave Posted April 25, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 25, 2018 I'm not even able to get to 1-ball @ 15-off from a narrow gate, haha. In a way, the narrow gate exercise turns one-ball into a pull out drill. Which makes me think that myself, and probably others, are not as efficient on the pull out as we need to be to truly get high on the boat during the gate glide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 26, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 26, 2018 Just found some overhead video from this winter. This is a 36mph 38off gate pullout. This clip is the first initial movement on my pullout for the gate. Notice where the 55m buoys are in front of the boat. Next is the moment I 'reach' and begin to very slowly start leaning toward the gate. The downswing of the rope started a couple frames before this picture. Now I am reaching to let the boat move away more while I keep my ski on the glide path. Entrance gates are at the bottom of the picture. Rope reaches 45degs and ski is still not loaded against the boat. Gates are about 4-5 feet in front of the bow, but they don't show up well in this picture. Its just a red smudge in the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lieutenant Dan Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 @adamhcaldwell Wow. That looks like an early pullout! What would you say like 3 boat lengths or so before the boat reaches the 55's? Are there any visual cues you use to do this consistently? How might things change for someone like me who is only skiing 22 or 28 off (34 mph) at this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lkb Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 @adamhcaldwell check your pm when you get a chance please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DanE Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 @adamhcaldwell You sure cover a lot of distance on the lake from initiate pullout to hitting the gates. Do you in any way find it difficult judging when to move on different lakes? Thinking of how very different lakes can be regarding glide speed or ease in gliding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller acmx Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 @adamcaldwell that is a super early pullout! That early would be next to impossible on my home site and most others I've skied due to short set ups. I try to pull out roughly a boat length before the 55s and find that hard to judge, what do you use to get a consistent point that far out? Also, really appreciate you guys (Adams) sharing the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 One would think that the pullout point varies according to a skis drag, wind, etc. I am told the Denali glides more than others before slowing down. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 26, 2018 Baller_ Share Posted April 26, 2018 It also depends greatly on where your COM is on the ski as to how far you will glide. Probably that more then anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller andjules Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 @adamhcaldwell this is fascinating (and radical, and maybe a paradigm shift). In the interest of searchability, could I convince you to copy your post with Andy photos and the post with your overhead images and start a new thread, or at the very least, add it to @AdamCord's GUT gate video thread? This centreline discussion has been a fantastic thread in its own right (thank you so much for your contributions!), but this super-early-pullout seems like it needs its own discussion. Geez, I've been second guessing myself for years for pulling out a little earlier than most would coach. And yet I pull out soooo much later than what you're showing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 26, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 26, 2018 I gauge my pullout on the fact that I want to be passing the platform of the boat at or slightly before reaching the 55m buoys. So if you were to draw a line 90 degrees to the 55s, then I want to be on it the same time the platform is there. There are a lot of ways to accomplish that timing. At the end of the day, passing the boat at the 55s guarantees me that I will have ample glide time to allow the boat the necessary space and time to pull away and initiate the rope downswing before I move in from the glide. That is what most people are missing when they pullout too late. They force the downswing by jamming the ski on edge when still traveling the same speed as the boat. If I am on a short site, I might setup a little wider on the whitewash and pull out more with more intensity and less duration. When the setup is nice and long, I will decrease intensity a bit and lengthen duration. At 34mph my pullout is slightly later, but I still am aiming to be passing the platform around the 55s. I just stay on the handle a bit longer. I can get up on the boat slightly quicker at 34 then 36, so I don't need to go quite as early as whats in that video. As @Wish stated, there are some tricks to managing COM on the pullout and glide to get the most efficient and effective use of your efforts. The goal should be to reduce YAW and increase roll in the ski to move out into the glide. Excessive YAW just creates hydraulic force on the ski that works against you moving forward to catch up with the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 26, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 26, 2018 Bow @ 55s, I am well on my way to pass the platform. 55s just passing by the platform and I am up into the glide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 one thing i have noticed about pullout and glide is that its better to be *slightly* too late and fast than too early and slow. obviously *perfect* is the goal to shoot for but that can be hard to find every time. if i'm out wide too early and too slow i'm pretty much screwed because once i'm out there, if i'm slow i have no way to add more speed. but if i'm too fast i can abruptly set an out bound edge for a fraction of a second and boil off some down course speed before i need to turn in for the gates. i know this might sound crazy to some but i've watched skiers like chris parish use this exact trick to regulate their glide speed and i know it works for me too. so, this is only my marginally informed opinion, if you can't be perfect on your pullout its better to be too fast than too slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Industry Professional Adam Caldwell Posted April 26, 2018 Industry Professional Share Posted April 26, 2018 Mapple at 34mph passing platform before boat is at the 55m buoys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DefectiveDave Posted April 26, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 26, 2018 I think the early pull out can also be verified by looking at timing in boat videos. Just look up some youtube videos of almost any elite skier not using a one-handed gate, and also Terry Winter even though he's using a one-handed gate. 5.0 to 5.5 seconds is a pretty typical time lapse from beginning of pullout until passing through the gate. Assuming a roughly constant 36 MPH, this translates (@ 38-off) to the boat being about 37 to 63 ft from the pre-gates. Seems very consistent with what @adamhcaldwell is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted April 28, 2018 Baller Share Posted April 28, 2018 I am just finding out about how the pullout changes relative to boat speed, and I would guess once at max speed, it would change with rope length. My 1st complete pass at 30 mph I pulled out about where I had been for 29. Just that 1 mph extra made me glide a lot farther to the point I couldn't turn in when I wanted. By the time I was able to turn in for gates, I missed the gates late.....but still ran the rest of the pass. I have also noticed big differences in the effect wind has, that pull out has to be adjusted based on wind speed, head, tail, etc. AT 29/30 mph I pull out average maybe just a 1/2 boat length before the boat hits the 55s, then I'm aiming for 2 boat widths outside the buoy line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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