Administrators Horton Posted November 22, 2017 Administrators Share Posted November 22, 2017 Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterSkier12 Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Carbon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Wish Posted November 22, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 22, 2017 One of the best videos to date :D was half hoping for a blooper at the end where Buford flicks the room light on and walks into view and asks "why is it dark in here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted November 22, 2017 Baller_ Share Posted November 22, 2017 Yea! Bring back the tail slide!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted November 23, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 23, 2017 I got wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cruznski Posted November 23, 2017 Members Share Posted November 23, 2017 this is intriguing o dark one. There resideth an Ol' Schnitz Slotfin in the garage (it may still be on the ancient Goode 9100) I may have to resurrect it just for the holiday fin of it all. I recall the wings were very thin on these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted November 23, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 23, 2017 @cruznski I have one of those fins also, it was next on my list to evaluate. Yes very thin small wing. Currently enjoying swerving with another unique shape which exhibits many of the same characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cruznski Posted November 23, 2017 Members Share Posted November 23, 2017 @mmosley899 ah yes, 'tis good to know the old fin warriors are still out there. One must admit the slot makes the shallow v deep conversation a wee bit more complex. For one thing, the slot fins were really nicely made and finished and I recall on old Goodes they were a +. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Johnson Posted November 23, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 23, 2017 Schnitz has his NEW Slot Fins for sale on his Web-Site at SCHNITZSKIS.COM. I used the old ones for years, especially on Goode's and they made a huge difference. Pulled this off his site. My new and improved SlotFin. Same shape, minor upgrades! $149.99 plus $6.99 SH in the USA. Outside the USA, shipping costs will vary. PS: GREAT VIDEO !!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller VONMAN Posted November 23, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 23, 2017 But I can show you some fins from Ernie Back in 2003 I designed about 30 fins, made about 15 of them. Will and Paul of D-3 tested some of them. My fav was the top loader, you didn't want to be hard in the turn, but the more you loaded going to behind the boat the tip of the ski could pull to 90 degrees to the boat. That's what a crazy auto designer does, that loves to ski. P.S. loved the Carbon Fins. Ernie Schlager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilecoyote Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I have a decent grasp of the aerodynamics and hydrodynamics of the the water sports I enjoy, and yet slalom ski fins confound me. Perhaps someone who understands better than I can explain a couple of things. Why do we not use foiled fins and what's up with all the holes? The basic shape I get. It's essentially a delta wing which doesn't reach a point of stall as angle of attack increases, it just continues to loose lift. This makes sense as the fin never completely stops working, it just slides more the more it's pushed. The problem is, it's not a particularly efficient shape, and when you punch a bunch of holes in it, you make it worse. I may do this experiment my self, but I would wager that if you were to draw a line connecting the edges of all the holes, and then cut the fin along that line, it would perform nearly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Bulldog Posted November 24, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 24, 2017 Fantastic video!!! Made me laugh out loud. "Do Better..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkiJay Posted November 25, 2017 Members Share Posted November 25, 2017 I'd recommend you keep that wager small @wilecoyote ... and you'll want video rolling right from the pullout. It feels a bit like dress shoes on ice. You can walk around okay, but it feels insecure enough to discourage any thoughts of running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted November 25, 2017 Author Administrators Share Posted November 25, 2017 @wilecoyote the holes act as pressure relief. If you think about a fin under static pressure - you can define it with center of pressure and amount of drag. The problem is with that thinking is that the angles and pressures are never static. A slalom turn is a long dynamic slide where the angles are constantly changing. Even Adrian Newey will admit there is alchemy in the science. As a side note - I believe that the standard fin shape is the way it is because it is easy to make by hand - not because it is best. Back when I made CarbonFins I made hundreds of fins by hand. The standard shapes are easy to make and arguably organic. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ AdamCord Posted November 25, 2017 Baller_ Share Posted November 25, 2017 @wilecoyote you bring up some good points. Without getting into too much detail though you have to understand that the fin on a ski is definitely NOT intended to be as efficient as possible. It wouldn't be very hard to make a super efficient fin...but it would make for a terrible ski ride. The fin is asked to do a lot of things, as @Horton points out. We want the ski to be fast behind the boat, and hold direction off the 2nd wake, while keeping the tip high enough to keep the ski going out, but low enough to still be efficient. Then we want the ski to slow down coming into the turn, while at the same time we want the ski to start to rotate, then as the speed drops dramatically we need the tip height to be stable as the tail slides through and the ski starts to point across course. Then as the line comes tight we need the ski to be stable without getting behind us, and when we start to pull we want there to be the most acceleration from the ski with the least amount of load/drag so we can start the process over again. It's a lot to ask. It's also why setting up a fin can be so challenging, and despite popular opinion, the fin effects all of this, not just the preturn and turn. So yes, holes add drag, but at some points we want drag, and depending on the angle of attack of the fin and the location of the holes, they do different things, and it's more than just pressure relief. As Horton said there is some alchemy there. This new fin is the result of years or testing. We may have an idea that makes sense on paper, but then we need to build lots and lots of different prototypes, testing and tweaking to try and learn what's really going on, and what works the best. This whole process has been really fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted November 25, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 25, 2017 Also very fun for the guinea pigs! I can attest that there were quite a few ideas that were abandoned, but the bottom line is this new fin WORKS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted November 26, 2017 Author Administrators Share Posted November 26, 2017 I did not do a direct compare between the old fin and the new fin but whatever was going on today it felt really crazy good. I can not comment on the specific claims about the fin shape but I am 100% sure it does not suck. If you do not believe me as @Rico if I was excited after my second ride. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ adamhcaldwell Posted November 26, 2017 Baller_ Share Posted November 26, 2017 Playing with fin design is fun and very interesting. However it can also be SUPER frustrating. The challenge lies in understanding what is really going on down there under the ski. Contrary to popular believe, the hydrodynamics on the fin go FAR beyond the simple concept of 'location of surface area' and pressure relief. Anyone who invested time trying to decipher fin design will tell you there is some 'black magic' going on. The surface-area and pressure-relief arguments that @Horton eludes to, do have merit and are valid under certain circumstances. However, I find that explanation falls apart and does not hold true under ALL conditions/situations the fin is exposed to within the slalom course. The new Denali fin takes advantage of some of those 'black-magic' hydrodynamics and brings a new level of performance and tune-ability to the water. We are just scratching the surface of what is possible, and I'm more excited then ever to be on the water digging deeper into the rabbit hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JAS Posted November 26, 2017 Members Share Posted November 26, 2017 An interesting extension to this discussion would be the question whether all skis could be performance enhanced with “shape tuning”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted November 27, 2017 Author Administrators Share Posted November 27, 2017 @JAS the reason for the ridiculously silly video I made about this fin is that there is another "feature" of the fin that @AdamCord asked me not to show. At this time of year I can not really do an A/B comparison between a fin with and without the "feature" but my guess is that it really makes a big differnece. Until the Patent Pending stuff is all legal I think they do not want me to say more. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted November 27, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 27, 2017 My guess based on lighting was some form of surface texturing or steps. Waiting to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chris55 Posted November 27, 2017 Members Share Posted November 27, 2017 This sound very intersting so my question is : would it be possible to put the fin on a Mapple T2 for exemple or an Omni and get all the advantage of this new "science" fin ? Thanks for your answer @AdamCord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ AdamCord Posted November 27, 2017 Baller_ Share Posted November 27, 2017 @Horton yes still working on getting the patent filed. @BraceMaker good guess but no @chris55 the science fin will help any ski, and we are offering them for free with the purchase of a Denali ski if you want to try it >:) >:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cruznski Posted November 28, 2017 Members Share Posted November 28, 2017 @mmosley899 indeed the ol' slot fin was on the 9100 Goode, here it is. This set up whistled, which was not good but you could hear the ski slowing down and accelerating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted November 28, 2017 Author Administrators Share Posted November 28, 2017 The CG does sort of resemble a slot fin but it is really a different deal. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted November 28, 2017 Baller Share Posted November 28, 2017 @cruznski yep that is one of the fins I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfeie Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I have seen the new fin when I wondered over to Ball of Spray headquarters from my lake last Saturday....but my lips (and fingers) are sealed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted February 5, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted February 5, 2018 I am still sort of embarrassed about the video but the secret is now out Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted February 6, 2018 Baller Share Posted February 6, 2018 cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted August 20, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted August 20, 2018 I confess. It is so good. I have had a CRAP season but the last 6 sets on C65 W/ CG fin have been awesome. Today 2 @ 39 off the dock. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 20, 2018 Baller Share Posted August 20, 2018 Are you trying to kill @adamhcaldwell? He's already having enough trouble filling orders while running Trophy and Denali at the same time! Ok fine. I admit it. It's awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted August 20, 2018 Author Administrators Share Posted August 20, 2018 Oooo yea I forgot to say that yesterday was some of the best 39 off 1 balls I have ever had. 3 ball seemed really doable. Caldwell will live. Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray California Ski Ranch ☆ Connelly ☆ Denali ☆ Eden Lake ☆ Goode ☆ HO Syndicate ☆MasterCraft ☆ Masterline ☆ Pentalago ☆ Performance Ski and Surf ☆ Reflex ☆ Radar ☆ Rodics OffCourse ☆ S Lines ☆ Stokes About Horton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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