GM To Ditch The Internal Combustion Engine

[ozski]

I guess our children will be skiing behind electric boats ... GM's goal is to abandon the internal combustion engine entirely. At some yet-unspecified point, all of its products will draw power either from batteries or hydrogen. Fuel cells are sometimes referred to as “refillable batteries.” They rely on devices called stacks to combine hydrogen and oxygen from the air to produce water vapor and electric current. That power is used to drive the same sort of motors used in battery-cars.

 

GM was a pioneer in both battery and hydrogen technology. It launched its first fuel-cell prototype four decades ago. Its EV1 was one of the first electric vehicles produced by a mainstream manufacturer, but the line was scrapped when California abandoned its initial zero-emissions vehicle mandates in the 1990s.

 

[dbutcher]

Can they make it sound like an inboard V8 coming across the lake at sun-up?

[vtmecheng]

I'd be all for an electronic boat. So quiet you could probably hear the skier talking, or cursing. The sound of the boat running across the water will probably sound fantastic too.

[ozski]

Less noise might just equal more ski lakes.

[skierjp]

I think that prediction is so far in the future I won't have to deal with it. Personally I enjoy my Diesel engine in my new truck and my supercharged gas engine!

[ScottScott]

I kinda like the sound of the Prostars, hate to lose that.

[BrennanKMN]

At the lake I ski it's the MasterCrafts and Malibus that get asked to not ski at 6am. Those are loud boats. Never a single complaint about the Nautiques running up and down the lake.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the sounds of a boat ripping through the course, but if it stops me from skiing I can live without it.

[MuskokaKy]

Nautique 200 electric has been around for years. I remember watching Andy Mapple testing it as his pond in florida. Wont be long before they are everywhere. The only issue i see is run time - especially for tourneys...Once they get that nailed its game on. The V8 humm will be missed!

 

P.S. I gotta say ill miss the smell of gas more than anything haha.

[ScottScott]

@BrennanKMN Good point. I'm never up that early, so can't speak to that, but certainly if the louder boat prevents some good skiing time.....thats a problem. Maybe the electric boats can have a switch, or even a selector for different modes: Quiet, Mastercraft, Nautique, etc. Ha!!! There was an electric car that had to have noise added as they feared people wouldn't hear it coming and might step out in front of it.

[AdamCord]

The other potentially great aspect of an electric boat is the opportunity for better and more precise speed control. Controlling an engine precisely is actually very difficult, especially with the adaptive fueling tables that are programmed in to deal with emission controls and engine protection. Throw on top of that fuel quality, altitude, fuel level (weight), and it's not surprising that the pull can feel so different from boat to boat even with the same manufacturer and engine.

 

An electric motor has none of those issues AND it's much easier to control the RPM and Torque output with software. Much much easier actually. A few geeks with a laptop will be able to make the boats not only ski much better with ZO and an electric motor, but also will be able to make the boats all feel much more similar and consistent.

[lpskier]

Never seen an electric ski boat myself, but I've been told the cool thing is that instead of hearing the motor, you hear the spray.

[BraceMaker]

The major components are readily available to build yourself one any time you see fit.

[liquid d]

I skied the Nautique one a few years back. You hear the whine of the transmission/prop through the water. It's not a lot quieter than a regular Nautique from behind it. I did not ride in the boat, so i can't say how loud/quiet it is inside. It skied the same.

[Than_Bogan]

I never experienced one, but all the reports were that it wasn't as quiet near the boat as you might think, because water noise is a big part of it. However, I don't think anybody ever tested the sounds levels at a bit of a distance, and I'd wager heavily that it's MUCH quieter in that respect.

 

In the realm of cars, I am still pretty darn skeptical about all-electric vehicles. But for a ski boat, I just think it makes all the sense in the world. Many great reasons were already given above, but solar recharge should also be in the equation. Most boats are idle at a consistent location nearly all the time.

 

I admit I'll miss certain sounds and smells at first, but ultimately those are good because of their association with the fun of skiing. Soon, whatever idiosyncrasies the electric boats have will gain that association, and thus become equally awesome.

 

And I would certainly not miss carrying gas cans.

[Fatroll]

considering we are going to have houses built along the shoreline where our course is, if this tech came soon, we might actually be able to save our course. less noise at 6 am

[Golfguy]

I would be very interested to see what this would do to the cost of boats and if the weight differential is substantial. Any thoughts?

[JAG]

Ever hear a Ducati L Twin?

 

I think Internal Combustion will be with us for a long time.

[Gloersen]

from a few years ago, the 196 electric:

 

a 210:

[Andre]

@AdamCord is right.

Electric motor : 1rpm=100% torque !

 

Link to the electric Nautique 196 from a few years ago.

http://www.ltsmarine.com/english/

[DW]

I had the opportunity to ride in the e196, very interesting and as noted, you heard the prop rotation and the water/hull noise. Quieter for sure, not silent as energy dissipation is still in the form of noise. @AdamCord noted, the calibration of the IC engine is not a simple process, even with the relatively simplistic marine ECU that deals with orders of magnitude fewer requirements or stringent (emissions / idle quality / fuel economy / temperature control / catalyst light off, etc) requirements.

 

Not surprising on the pronouncement of where the power unit technology is going, the EU has already posted regulations coming in +/- 10 years on phasing out of fossil fuel power units. You can see the technology in development in F1 and WEC, 50% or less of the overall power delivery is actually from the IC engine, in the case of the Porsche 919, a 1.4 L turbocharged Power Unit via numerous supporting technologies delivers 1000+ hp to the wheels.

 

The switch to alternate power may not be limited by the actual power unit but more by the infrastructure to support the fuel source (electricity / hydrogen). GM has a fleet of hydrogen powered vehicles that have been around for a long time, the inconvenience or limiting ability to offer them to the masses is where to fill, not the actual engine technology. Significant electric grid updates will be needed to offer adequate and reliable energy supply for a mobile society and one that views transportation very differently than current and previous generations of people.

[Razorskier1]

If you need to ski early (which I do), install a Fresh Air Exhaust. I loved the sound of my Prostar 6.2L, but it is worth it to have the FAE to keep the rest of the folks on the lake happy. From directly behind the boat all you hear is the water splashing off the hull - zero exhaust noise.

[jcamp]

In my state the law prohibits internal combustion engines on a number of lakes. So, bam, a bunch of lakes would open up to skiers using electric boats!

[eleeski]

The sailing team did not want to share Lake Lagunita with us. Noise was one issue they raised. So we dug up a decibel meter and measured sound levels from my boat at speed. From shore, when the boat was approaching you could not hear the engine at all. There was quite a bit of spray noise. Measured almost the same decibels as when the boat was going away and you could hear the engine noise through the mufflers. The boat was loud enough from just the spray to keep us off the lake in the early morning (dorms overlooked the lake). An electric engine would not have helped. I graduated, a prolonged drought and water management policies dried up the lake and ended the issue.

 

My buddy's Tesla is not significantly quieter than a well muffled car. With the a/c going, it was easy to hear when parked (we joked about needing a new muffler). And the motor whined a lot when he demonstrated a max performance take off (to be fair, even well muffled cars are loud at max power). Road noise overshadows engine noise in most cars.

 

Hydrogen is a scary option. It is an extremely powerful greenhouse gas. Hydrogen is a small molecule and can pass through steel. If the use is widespread enough, leakage might offset the carbon gains. Obviously, there are technical solutions possible but they are not yet in place - hence, not many hydrogen fueled vehicles.

 

At the tournaments, use the swing arm that swaps ropes to also change out batteries between skiers. Lightens the boat and could be quite manageable. Leave a bunch of batteries in for tricks. Recharge with the solar array from the dock shade. I feel so green!

 

Eric

[j2nh]

This is a long way down the road.

Water is heavy and pushing a boat thru the water takes energy. The problem with current battery technology is twofold, weight and charging. You're talking about adding a ton of weight to a boat where weight has to overcome the "push" of water. Until you can get to 6 hours of useable time I don't see it happening.

As for the environment, most of the energy currently that charges batteries comes from coal generation, again, that isn't going to change for a while.

 

This is something my grandkids might be able to enjoy but I don't think I'll see it in my lifetime, 20 more years God willing.

[Than_Bogan]

20 years is a long time in Technology Years. And there are powerful market incentives to dramatically improve large capacity batteries. That doesn't mean it can be done, but it does mean that smart people will work on it. The breakthrough will come unpredictably -- maybe in 1 year, maybe in 100 years.

 

Weight isn't a huge problem -- see fully functional proof of concept!

[swc5150]

No one seems to be talking about it, but Mazda's new gas compression engine seems much more realistic techno in the near term for boats (maybe?). Diesel-like torque and fuel economy, with reg gas. I'll take that.

[ozski]

I don't think this is as far down the road as people might think, pretty much every major auto manufacturer in the world is invested in electric now, the ones who are not will get left behind. On top of that the number of moving parts required to build a car has been reduced significantly, something like 29 in a Tesla. This opens the door for new car company start ups and new revenue models, everything is about to change which is pretty exciting. As electric tech scales up and becomes cheaper it might just help bring the price of boats down...

[BraceMaker]

@j2nh very true - they need to publish much more comprehensive data in terms of the true costs of operating different engines. Historically when the Prius became popular the math still said that running your existing Chevy Suburban until it died was more environmentally friendly to just drive the Suburban than to trash it for a Prius. Would also like to see CNG with concentrators to fuel the boat -

[klindy]

@scotchipman the Tesla solar roof is all smoke and mirrors. The cost, on average, is 5-10x the cost of a conventional roof. With required maintanance it’s impossible to overcome the first costs. The pricing is setup for Tesla to basically collect the tax credit you could realize when you buy it. Save your money.

[j2nh]

I'm looking more at CNG as a future rather than electric. The rush to electric vehicles right now is driven by massive government subsides and regulations requiring a percent of electricity to be produced by renewables. It's a pretty muddy picture as to what is economical and practical and what is not. Time will tell with batteries for transportation being the holy grail of research. With so much already invested and no quantum leaps forthcoming I am not holding my breath. I actually hope I'm wrong but I kind of doubt it.

[ozski]

Its my understanding that battery - electric motor is a much more efficient way to turn a wheel to move something especially if you compare it to a conventional motor / transmission in a car or truck. Combustion engines have had a long time to evolve and we are only now at the beginning of the curve with battery electric. I have not been for a ride in a Tesla yet but I'm looking forward to that day!

[eleeski]

@klindy Photovoltaics built into a roof do pay off in the right location and the right designs. The desert in Utah is a good bet. @scotchipman , you would be foolish not to design for solar there.

 

I have no idea specifically what the Tesla system is. If it incorporates battery storage with the solar panels, cool. But the technology will develop - and get cheaper. Solar rocks!

 

Electric boats are a way off.

 

Eric

[vtmecheng]

A ski boat may actually be better for electric power than a car. If you ski near where you launch or keep the boat then you only need power during runs and, unlike a car, you don't have to worry about what happens if you need to take a long drive. Unlike a gas engine boat, the motors aren't drawing power when you stop for a few minutes between sets so that saves a little too. Yes, the batteries are heavy now but that keeps going down and the capacity keeps increasing. Also, that big block in a ski boat isn't exactly a featherweight and requires gear reduction with a reverse gear. Motors can be direct drive to save on both weight and power losses. I'm not saying it's perfect yet and maybe there will be other challenges but it's an interesting idea with possible merit depending on the buyer's use and execution.

[Glydon]

Electric is the future , as far as in our lifetimes I suspect we will easily see it, and in fact be mandated by it. Look back 20 years on internal combustion technology and see where we were, many boats still ran CARBURETORS and had zero speed or emission control.

[thager]

Change tech all you want. Pollution moves to a different material, form, and threat!

[sunvalleylaw]

Rooftop and other home solar is a big deal here in Sun Valley. Passive for heating water, etc., too. We have not added it yet, but we are full sun all day and would be good candidates. As for the boats and other vehicles, of course there are technological challenges, particularly with battery life and disposal and make up. But that will improve. I am looking forward to advancement of it all. As far as the sound, yes, there is a thrill from the sound of a big conventional motor. But the sound of spray when you are moving fast is fun too. My few times sailing has taught me that.

 

Change can be good!

[bigskieridaho]

This is stupid. Electric cars suck, except for the tesla and every time I see a Prius I just want to smash into it. Good for chevy, guess if it happens I will just buy boats with ford engines in them.

[Drago]

@bigskieridaho Chill, were talking evolution here. Prius isn't a plug -in, and I'm picturing a Tesla (or Porsche, or ....) equivalent boat. Prius equivalent is a 14' aluminum boat with a 35 horse outboard

[swc5150]

I drove a friend's Tesla SUV recently in "ludicrous mode", and it was absolutely unreal. Similar performance in a ski boat would put an end to short set up and/or altitude issues. I would've guessed we'd be further along in the E-boat thing by now, considering the E196 was built quite a few years back.

[Wish]

I believe Europe would benafit greatly as a larger percentage of lakes are restricted to non petrel boats. I suspect there is a big market on the other side of the pond.

[bigskieridaho]

Something between electricity and water don't mix.....I remember that E196 also and noticed that the batteries didn't last all that long. Let me just stop my skiing so I can charge my boat.....lame. Put gas in and go makes all the sense in the world.

[Wish]

May be an off the wall stupid question but.. One way bats are recharged on a Prius is breaking regeneration. Is there a way to harness electrostatic friction between hull and water or some other way to harnes some level of regenerative power while the boat is under way?

[wilecoyote]

@bigskieridaho makes the real point here. For me I would absolutely LOVE an Eboat. Charge all week by solar, ski 6 sets on Saturday (only 2 skiers at the cottage), charge on shore power overnight, ski another 6 Sunday. When we're up all week we could charge on shore power as needed. Noise, no gas, easier winterize, all wins. BUT for ski clubs and tourneys it would be a nightmare. Swapping batteries wouldn't be an answer, and you just can't charge fast enough. Now you're asking the manufacturers to build 2 boats, one for guys like me, and one for clubs and schools. I'm sure this is one of the reasons that the E Nautique was mothballed.

[DanE]

@Wish Any attempt to harness energy while under way will draw more power from the batteries than you gain.

Less friction and wind resistance is the only way tou can save some energy.

[BraceMaker]

@Wish Unfortunately boats just really don't "coast" and basic physics would indicate that any sort of energy being taken from the system is going to generate load + inefficiency so unless you have some sort of replacement for the rules of thermodynamics.

 

For private lakes you could capitalize on the "drop zone" by having some form of overhead pad that the boat could come under, drop the skier at a ball drive under the pad - boat could have a tower with a contact and it could use magnet to tether. Skier takes his breather boat crew does their thing. And you're looking at offsetting the consumption of a single pass at a time.

Current hulls have tons of drag to make those super nice slalom wakes with big heavy boats - maybe this could change if the drives were lighter.

 

The thing that I think would make the most sense is if someone could get around to making a workable cable driven slalom site. Overall length of the lake gets to shrink because you don't need to maneuver a boat around.

[Greg Banish]

@Wish please refrain from breaking the laws of thermodynamics and energy conservation:

 

1) You can't win

2) You can't tie

3) You have to play (pay)

 

Few things are as efficient (from well to road with all losses considered) as fossil fuels for continuous power delivery. See also: that coal fired electrical plant running around the clock that actually powers the electric vehicles.

 

GM is making a statement about their LONG TERM plans and current posture as an eco-friendly manufacturer. Good for them, but don't hold your breath on an all electric fleet. Boats will lag even further behind since their powertrain requirements are even less suited to all electric continuous operation. It will take a ready supply of "free" energy (solar, wind?) and packs that can be rapidly charged/changed by the user to move this needle.

 

In the meantime, my earlier posts about making boats with some alternative power plant such as a boosted 4/6 cylinder instead of a V8 become more plausible for our future. Those engines would also be lighter in our slalom tugs. ;)

[BraceMaker]

@Greg Banish three event could also go hybrid quite easily.

Small boosted engine (Volvo introducing a 3 cylinder) powers a generator which charges batteries or maybe just a capacitor bank. This engine runs constantly to create power and charge the system, it could theoretically have some ability to drive the prop directly through a very basic transmission system for low speed maneuvering or ideally would have the stones for open water cruising.

 

At rest this would juice up the caps to provide the pull through the course, the battery would exist to recharge the caps in the scenario they don't have the juice when you're ready to go.

 

LED or Screen programmed to let driver know when its good to go, and you just need to engineer it around consumption for a pass, and recharge time per pass.

[gsm_peter]

Eboat would be great.

I do look forward for Eboats.

 

Battery technology must improve a factor 10 to 100 in weight/cost/durability/fast recharge cycles etc before Eboats will be a real option.

Petrol contains so much more energy per weight/cost etc.

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@gsm_peter Yeah, it was pretty thoughtful of billions of organisms to die and concentrate their energy just beneath the surface of the earth for us!!

But slowly we'll need to depend less on their generosity. :)

[DW]

Mercedes just touted the fact their F1 engine surpassed 50% energy efficiency, that is a significant achievement. That technology will extend the life of the IC engine. The signs of alternate power units being integrated to our transportation units is certainly accelerating, along with autonomous control.

 

The miniscule market of the three event ski boat is a significant limiter to any advanced technology being developed around that duty cycle. A niche market can only survive by adopting technologies developed under R&D funds that have a much larger market opportunity.