Baller gregy Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 I think Nate has redefined what's possible. 41off was seen as nearly impossible. But these young guys just don't have that mind set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 I was looking at the gross incompetence that cost Jamie a World Record of 2 @ 43 back around 2004 in France. And hoping something like that hasn't happened again, but I remain skeptical of tournament quality. I never found any explanation of why no centerline video for Jamie, or even whether the event had Cl. video at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 @ozski I think Joel Howley and Sacha are 1 and 1A right now. Joel hasn't run 41 in a tournament but he has more top finishes in big events. I don't think Sacha has skied too many big events yet though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MuskokaKy Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 Great vid ^ epic pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 Wow, love the extra juice he gave it heading to 6 ball. Very controlled the entire way fantastic skiing. Looks repeatable for him. Well done, kudos, congrats etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Ran square over 3 ball.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 I'd like to see someone pull a Jeff Rodgers and beat Nate to a new world record. I think that brought the best out in Andy and others when Jeff beat him to 43 off. Maybe this kid has a shot at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller aupatking Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 I agree @Ralph Lee. Mike Kjellander ran 39 before Andy. I think Andy did it within the month after. If not the same tournament. That dude was a title protector, if ever there was one. I want to see 4 guys into -43 in a final. I can see Sacha getting around 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 Andy ran 39 the next day. Mike's initial score of 2 @ 41 was reduced on record review, as the boat was toward him at # 2. First time that ever happened for a World Record, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 @klindy Agree, if not over, inside. Freeze the video starting at about the 1:12 mark, and then step ahead. But, it should also be obvious without freezing. But, what tournament is this and what is the towline length? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted October 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2016 Definitely ran over 3 ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 I'm not sure if this question is dumb or insightful, but: How do you not run over a ball at -41? I stopped on a few different frames and his ski certainly is initially outside of it and then he crushes it with his legs and/or feet. Are we really saying that doesn't count? I would think that's exactly how you want to run ludicrously short shortline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 18, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2016 @klindy I just stepped through frame by frame. It was close but I am not sure I agree about "Ran square over 3 ball"  Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes Drop a dime in the can  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted October 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2016 It looks like he hit it and it knocked him forward from the impact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bishop8950 Posted October 18, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2016 Here we go again judging from an irrelevant perspective. It comes down to the view the event officials had and not shoreline video or @Hortons still shots from the bushes :-). All that said, based in the video in hand, it looks to me like he ran over 3. In motion is better than frame by frame. And all that said, still incredible skiing. I hope he hits major pro events next year and see how he does in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 18, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2016 At this point I do not think the ski or the binding has touched the ball yet. I guess if it is a bubble ball he could be center punching it but I do not think so.   Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes Drop a dime in the can  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 @bishop8950 correct that it's an irrelevant perspective! Completely agree with you. Â @Horton you need to advance a frame or two. What matters is what happens at the front binding. Â I stand by my call - he ran square over the buoy #3. That said he's an awesome talent and clearly capable. Incredible skiing and I hope we see a lot of him in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 18, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2016 @klindy Yes the ball looks to go under in the next couple of frames. I am just unsure how the ball can look to be between the skier and the boat at the skier's toes and be under the ski 6 inches laster.  Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes Drop a dime in the can  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted October 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2016 @Horton, it looked to me like there is a small amount of orange graphic on the ski just in front of the front binding. I wonder if that contributed some sort of optical illusion on the amount of buoy that is between the boat and skier. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted October 18, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2016 Here is a snap after he has passed the ball (it's under the tail of the ski). Note the orange on the ski in front of his toes.  The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 18, 2016 Author Administrators Share Posted October 18, 2016 @MISkier yea yea in the image I posted the ball looks low. I am not looking at the ski graphics. The ball may be good or not - all I am saying is it looks darn close to me. Need higher res video I guess.  Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes Drop a dime in the can  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 if that's not "inside #3" the buoy is certainly "significantly displaced". Either way it's scored a missed. Â Watch #1 and #5 (his weak side). He's quite a bit narrower. No idea if that's style or a boat offf centerline or what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Cam Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 This video is from the first round of the 2016 European Championships in Spain where Sacha scored 3 @ 41 so would guess this is his 39 pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 9400 Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 Those buoys from the 70s and 80s would have made that "did he run over 3 or not?" a lot easier to figure out :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 @9400 plus probably destroyed a piece of his body.  Separate question on boat path. Suppose the driver keeps a straight path but is slightly towards the 2-4-6 side which at 41 would seem to be a definite disadvantage. I would assume that still would invalidate a record is that correct even though the boat path was straight. How far back in the set do they go back and look at boat path for a record run? Do they examine every pass or just 41 and 43? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 @Chef23 They look at the last full pass and the "record" pass. The variance is an accumulation of error as well as a max error.  So below are the limits based on the record score - 0.25-1.00 = 20cm 1.25-2.00 = 28cm 2.25-3.00 = 35cm 3.25-4.00 = 40cm 4.25-5.00 = 45cm 5.25-6.00 = 49cm Also the max deviation for any single buoy is 20cm (approx. 8") towards the buoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 @klindy If I were riding in the boat for a record setting set, I don't know who I'd be more impressed with, the skier, or the driver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 Great skiing regardless -- Dude is getting it done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 @Ralph Lee A great driver holds the boat straight with subtle movements. You don't even know the driver is there. It's more "leaning" on the wheel rather than "turning" it. Watching the skier from the boat though is more like rhythmic violence - especially at the shortest rope lengths. Watching from the shore doesn't translate the same at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 @klindy Shortest I've watched from the boat is 1 at 39.5 and I was thoroughly entertained!! There's nothing like shortline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted October 19, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 19, 2016 @klindy, when certifying boat path, where do they take each measurement? Only at the boat guides - nose of the boat is between the guides? Only when a certain portion of the boat (pylon) is through the boat guides? Or, when the skier is at a certain part of the turn around the buoy? I assume they can't take continuous measurements throughout the length of the entire course, as I am sure the cumulative variation would exceed 49cm for even record approved boat paths. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 @MISkier The path is monitored all the way thru and tracked but the measurement is taken when the pylon is at gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted October 19, 2016 Baller_ Share Posted October 19, 2016 @klindy, then is it acceptable to have a skier yank the boat more than 20 cm off center between each buoy, as long as the driver recovers the path enough to be within tolerance at the measurement point at each set of boat guides while not accruing more than the maximum allowed cumulative deviation from those recorded checkpoints? The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted October 19, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2016 @chef23 Cl. video looks at the record pass and the previous complete pass. Noting above, the boat can be perfectly centered in the gates, but the SL course needs to be even, and not for one side wide and the other side narrow. Seen that. Also seen a bunch of Cl. video, including through 41, and what @MISkier describes is very rare. Maybe the boat getting pulled toward the skier's side right after the buoy when the towline force is applied. Correct that the deviation is measured at one point, as noted. The SplashEye system can measure continuously, maybe needing a target on the boat. See: splasheye.com/products/slalom When we first started using video overlay around 1983 for the AWSA Boat Tests, the boat was tracked continually by a manual method that depended on the video-game type skill of the computer operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 @Than_Bogan if you run over a buoy or significantly displace it, you didn't run the pass, so I'd think that's NOT the way you want to run -41. By the way I think he did displace the three, but the view we saw is not what the judges saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Let me tell you a little story of boat path video. A few years back at Regionals I was leading when the number two seeded skier came up. He missed his opener, so I'm thinking no worse than second for me. Lo and behold the chief judge (from his home state) calls the boat and orders a reride for boat path. He comes back and skis up to his seed, knocking me out of second place. OK, you say sour grapes on my part for not wanting him to get a reride, but wait. I go to,the chief judge and ask if I and the chief driver can review the video in her presence and the she says no! I say "you mean I can't watch it"? She says "no you can't watch it." So, @rico that's my experience as to whether videos are made public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 @Edbrazil - Yes, targets are required in the boats for the SplashEye boat path measurements to work. I really like that part of the system and think it would be great if it recorded with the video, but it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 @LeonL the same process of posting $100 to challenge a call applies whether you're challenging your score or that of a competitor. So if you said you wanted to challenge it, posted the $$ and then you were denied, you would have had a protestsble situation for the CJ not following the rules. Â For what its worth, if I was CJ and I knew the situation I likely wouldn't have let you see the video either. If the CD or TC gave you a copy later ... but if you want a change to happen and if you really think you were slighted, then follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Edbrazil Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 @rico Jamie (not Jaime) scored 2.0 @ 9.75. It is listed in the Rankings as 1.5, since a World Record score can only be used if it is ratiified. I have never seen any explanation of what happened. There is very good boat video. For the Cl. video, that appears to belong in the realm of UFO sightings. As a Technical Controller/Homologator, I have always interpreted IWSF Rule 6.04: 6.04: Score Sheet Availability The scoring sheets of each judge for every skier shall be made available for a period of 30 minutes for inspection ...in the broadest sense. If someone wants to wade through pages of data and computer calculations, and a bunch of video: have fun. Just don't delay things. It looks like @LeonL got screwed, and the Chief Judge maybe should have had a complaint filed against her. At least, a formal Protest should have been made. And the Chief Driver and event driver should have been spoken to. But, it is not easy to 'think on your feet' about that. I have had something like that happen to me. And, of course, your version may be one version vs. the CJ's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Let me make it clear. I didn't mean to imply that I got screwed. I am aware of and understand the rules concerning challenge and protest. I just thought in the interest of keeping things on the up and up, it would have been incumbent on the CJ to show me what she saw that precipitated the reride. Maybe I got screwed maybe I didn't. Unfortunately, I'll never know. Everybody would have been better served if a bit of transparency had been instituted. Keeping it from sight only heightened the concern of impropriety, whether real or imagined. I just wanted to relate a situation in response to @rico asking about video being made public. @klindy, I respect your opinion on what you would have done in a similar situation. Oh, by the way, when have you ever seen this rule complied with: "A mark or small post on the top of the windshield that is visible in the end-course video camera (both directions) shall be placed 20 cm from the centre of the windshield on both sides of the centre to aid in the determination of the 20 cm deviation. " Rule listed under 14.15 IWWF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 So people thought I was an uneducated idiot for posting "All tournaments should be record capability" I"m presently skiing with some great skiers much older than me that have well over 100 years of tournament experience between them. Their stories of shady judges and drivers is pretty embarrassing!! I think these guys are the true root of the sport and believe every word they are saying. Listening to Andy talk about Zero Off it sounds like one of the main reasons for its invention was to prevent people manipulating the speed, so that tells me there is just cause to doubt some peoples integrity. So, make all tournaments R class and video EVERYTHING! Or else go with the Chief Judges decisions and never mention your beef again. Â Just one point of view from a long time die hard skier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ralph Lee Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Uneducated - yes Idiot - debatable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Opposite of me: Undoubtedly educated. Still an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 @rico Clearly my opinion about his 3 ball was based on the video posted. Frankly the quality is as good as it gets and the slo-mo makes it even easier to see. (Recall that slalom CAN be viewed in slo-mo and freeze frame to make the call unlike tricks). Also, while your comment about boat video is important, I'll bet the video was taken from the same tower the shore judges were positioned. So while the view isn't "from the boat", it certainly is a valid viewpoint. Â The boat video is only required for the last two passes of an National record (OM/OW/MM/MW only) or for a World Record (OM/OW only). So the use of a boat video isn't a given but IF it is available there is a prescribed way to use the boat video. Â First the boat video must be monitored but another judge and/or the CJ. It's reviewed only if the video review judge disagrees with the event judges call. In other words the boat judge (presumably similar view to the boat video) AND the tower judges make the call first. So @rico, saying he ran over #3 from that vantage point is not only plausible but highly likely and certainly not "silly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Could someone dig up a similar view of Nate running a -41? I'm having trouble understanding how the physics and geometry allows someone to NOT smash their legs/feet into the buoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Roger Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Nate at 41 slow motion. Those buoys sure seem to disappear in a similar fasion... though the angle is better and you can see the ball better as the ski moves past it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted October 20, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2016 Thanks Roger! To my naive eye, what Nate inflicts on the 4 ball looks the same as what Sasha did to three. Ski heads outside of it, but then shins and bindings smash right through the ball. Others see it differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted October 22, 2016 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2016 What an incredible waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettthurley Posted December 11, 2016 Share Posted December 11, 2016 Hi Drago, actually I was the 7th guy to run 39 in an RC event at Trophy Lakes in August 1995, last round of the last record tournament I skied in before I retired 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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