Weight in boat for tricks

[disland]

I saw in the announcement for team trials that for Mastercraft you are allowed to add 150 additional pounds of ballast.

 

This raises several questions.

 

1. Is there a rule in the IWWF rulebook that governs this?

2. Does this now apply to all tournaments?

3. Why does team trials get to have special rules?

4. Why does Mastercraft get a special rule? Who has the authority to govern this?

5. What if I want to add 150 pounds extra to a Nautique, is the skier not allowed? Why?

[Jody_Seal]

@disland

Good questions, check out towboat policy's on the USA waterski web site. The Policy's are a bit convoluted but basically states weight can be added on a case by case event and by the towboat manufacturer's request / suggestion.

As a Tow boat manufacturer's rep at many tournaments in the past (and future) I have been in this situation especially at shallow water tournaments where I had to make an on the spot suggestion for added weight. however many times I have made the call and most all that skied behind the boat preferred not to utilize the added supplement.

 

Personally I think that this is another BS policy in our ever increasing set of rules and guidelines and the rule for added weight should be at the discretion of the skier where safe added weight is available the skier can add provided the skiers rope tech (pin person) removes it before the next skier. Don't care if it is 50 or 500 pounds as long as it is safe to personal and the boat and quickly removed it should not matter. Again my personal opinion!

[andjules]

A converse opinion: The guiding principle (at least for now) should be in the interest of making the boats equitable (not to be confused with identical). It should be at the discretion of the chief judge (not the skier), and in the case of a specific model-year of tow boat (like the new MCs), perhaps a national (or Int'l) recommendation/guideline.

 

It's a tough one: Mastercraft is a big member of the community, and from a business/demographics perspective, they're right to prioritize slalom wakes over trick. But we don't want to punish MC skiers/owners, or further discourage tricks/3-event participation. Allowing the new MCs a little ballast is common sense, in helping the boat achieve an equitable trick wake... but it's always tricky to design fair rules/policies around common-sense exceptions.

 

Whether or not we should let all trickers choose their own ballast for any boat is a valid question to explore, but it would drastically alter the sport, so it's a different conversation. The policy in the original post is simply about giving the new MCs an equitable wake. Different scope.

 

[Edbrazil]

EZ solution: get yourself a 500+ lb. Sumo to be your release man. Heavy-heavy, but also

would have good coordination.

[skierjp]

Also don't expect me to let you start piling cement blocks or rusty barbell plates in my Promo Boat unless you intend on buying it. trick skiers are the absolute worst for mistreating boats. Who in the world approved a rule to let a trick skier use a carabiner to attach their handle to the rope?

[eleeski]

Trick wakes on the new boats are horrible. Something needs to be done to improve the wakes. Weights barely help but they are widely used and can be used in training.

 

With the focus so skewed toward slalom, any accommodations to help the trickers is in order.

 

Eric

[ToddL]

@Edbrazil beat me to it. This type of rule/bureaucracy is a joke. If trick boat rules are going to specify a limit to weight to be added, then they might as well require the boat crew to be weighed before each ski pull. Trust me, when you have a pin person who is 100lbs vs one who is over 200lbs, the boat wake is very different.

 

@skierjp also brings up a really good point about weights which can damage the boat. Effective today, I am launching a new company called "Safe Mass" which produces incremental trick boat weight solution with protective, non-slip, non-marring coating and easy grip/lift handles. I have written a new rule for IWWF/AWSA to require officially approved, incremental, safe, standardized trick boat weight solutions at all record tournaments. And I have submitted my product for certification.

 

And I am joking of course...

[Broussard]

The weight racks that MasterCraft toyed with for a while in the new Prostar seemed to be a good option as far as having weight without ruining a boat.

[Jody_Seal]

It has been a long time since I seen rusty steel or concrete blocks utilized for weight in the trick event at tournaments. Mostly see Carpeted elevator weight's, Stainless Steel shot bags or 5 gal water bottles. Seen some real nice plastic dipped unit's at LLUSA last weekend. Trick skiers that I run into for the most part are very respectful of the boats. Also most all of the tournaments I go to are very adamant about providing quality equipment. As a quasi Promo guy I supply my boat's to tournaments with lots of overlay carpet and a 50 pound elevator weight.

 

@eleeski . The only complaints I get are from old (repeat) Real old trick skiers that seem to need the old school water ski boats to ski with.

 

The problems I have after tournaments is getting the excessive amount of soap out of my overlay carpets!!

[eleeski]

@Jody_Seal The technical deficiencies in the new boats are real. Maybe some kids have never skied behind a good trick boat. You are closely tied to Nautique, Nautique has had problems for a very long time (the 196 table was never smooth and the 200 has the modern flat sloped wake). Perhaps if there was a technically good boat and any level of support for tricking young skiers might trick.

 

I agree with you that weights at tournaments are added responsibly.

 

I also agree that trick skiers need to accept the available boats and adapt - not complain.

 

Or engineer better and hope the manufacturers incorporate the innovations. I'm trying.

 

Eric

[skierjp]

You know what Jody, I used to bring my own ballast weight ( 50lbs bag with handles ) till I saw it being thrown from the boat onto the dock. I think I paid Skip almost $50 for the weight bag. No more. The last tournament a carabiner broke and hit the boat. The skiers with the Reflex boots seem to like to throw the boot into the boat from the dock. I especially like it when the pin person thinks the first step into the boat is the top of the motor box.

I'm not a tricker but if the trick wake is so bad why do the record scores keep going up. These days the 200 is non stop at tournaments here in Florida. The other 3 boats just stay tied to the dock.

[LeonL]

I'm not a promo persons so I don't necessarily have a dog in the boat, er, in the fight. I tend to agree with Jim, trickers and their pin person can be pretty crude with regard to boats at tournaments. It seems that at most tournaments, at least if multiple brands are utilized, trickers get loaded in the boat at the dock instead of leaving from the dock. Therein lies the rub, if you will, that causes mistreatment. Muddy feet, etc.

[ToddL]

In general, because of trick pin persons swapping out between every skier, there is more dock touch time and more in/out actions for trick event. Also, while the boat is at the dock, the logic says, why not let the skier just hop in and then onto the platform...

Thus, more opportunity for anything (mud, bumps, inappropriate wear/tear, etc.).

 

[ToddL]

In slalom or jump, the boat only comes to the dock for officials changes and start/end of the round.

[Edbrazil]

Noting @skierjp 's comment. At one time, there was a stipulation in the Rules about trick release

components not damaging the boat. I can't find it now in the Rules, but it may still be tucked in

somewhere. This was back in the days when trick releases were evolving, and one option was

called something like the 'Safe-T-Pop'. Which would release when the load got to a certain level

that you could adjust by a screw and spring loading. Or something like that. I had one of these,

since I was the only tricker on the pond at the time, and didn't have anyone that I could rely on

as a release person. Anyone else remember this device?

 

There was a pin to insert for deepwater starts, and to pull out once the skier was up. There

was a bullet-shaped plug that got attached to the boat end of the trick line, about like the

shape & size of a 50-caliber bullet, and inserted into the body of the release unit. When it

released, it could whack the boat's interior.

 

Chances are that a carabiner at the handle end could have come under the same Rule.

 

Hmmm..use a climbing-rated one, or a stainless quicklink, or just loop the handle in.

[dchristman]

My trick weights. They're compact and you can see them. I'm taking them with me wherever I go. New boats suck for tricks, not that I'm complaining.

 

[buski]

Does anyone us a wedge on Malibus for tricks?

[John Brooks]

I believe the Centurions have the ability to add water for weight (ballast), a type of wake sack. How are their trick wakes?

[Moskier3ev]

We have our 1st carbon pro. 2015 6ltr. Promo boat. It came with 2 50 lb shot bags we use those for trick weight adjust not the ballast tank. Toe table is good. We use the weight to crisp up the passenger wake. We like it. We both did shorten our rope 18 inches. Excuse any spelling or punctuation I have not finished my 1st cup of coffee.

 

Jeff Lindsey

 

 

 

[skierjp]

This is what I use

[skierjp]

Here's the name and number

[rodltg2]

Use one of these. Problem solved

[Nando]

dchristman, what are those weights? I ski with a guy that has some (not nicely dipped, but after I show him those...) but he has no idea where to get more or where they came from. They're close to perfect- I need to know if they're available.

[dchristman]

@Nando they are scale calibration test weights. I was lucky enough to find mine on eBay for $50 each. They're relatively expensive if buying new. Here's the lowest price I had found for new ones:

 

alliancescale.com/weights/grip-handle-weights/12839.html

[GAJ0004]

I would be glad to bring my boat to a tournament to pull the tricks event.. 1994 Ski Nautique with Stargazer..

[MrJones]

We are really slalom skiers, but have kids that trick. Given that when we bought a new(er) boat in our 2013 TXi trick wakes were a prime consideration. To me the Malibu is the best of both worlds from a standpoint of great driving and good skiing for slalom and tricks. If it had the MC interior it would be the perfect boat.

[thompjs]

It would be nice if whoever stole my 50lb coated barbell weight in AR Regionals a few years ago would return it.

 

 

 

[escmanaze]

I really wish that the rules would allow as much weight as possible for tricks. My 97 SNOB is just a few hundred pounds from being a really decent wakeboard boat. I feel like many slalom boats are the same way in the fact that they are just a few hundred pounds from being a really good crossover boat for guys who want world class slalom wake, but still do a little bit of riding sideways (or even trick skiing) on the side. The factories are all really skilled at fitting a bunch of ballast into boats, and while I understand that a slalom boat doesn't have the room of a big wake boat, we're also asking for just a little factory ballast, not a ton. Maybe one manufacturer could fit 200 pounds of factory ballast in the boat and another could fit 500 pounds of factory ballast. Let's open up the rules so that the challenge is laid at the feet of the manufacturer to give us a top notch slalom boat, that is also fun to trick (and therefore board) behind as well once we add a little ballast or a plate or a wedge or whatever item they want to use to improve the wake and table.

[Nando]

dchristman- thanks! Now I know where I've seen those (besides in a boat)- now I've just gotta negotiate...

 

One other thing, when I did a lot of tournament driving, I always made sure the trick boats had a full gas tank- made a big difference.

[RAWSki]

@John Brooks the ballast tank in the Centurion is up under the bow on the observers side it is really designed to level the boat when there isn't an observer, or if the driver weighs a lot more than the observer. Works well. The CP comes with two bags and most of the time you find 1-2 of them put in the nose of the boat by drivers to help with slalom wakes and tracking, I have been told it also helps the trick wake a bit but I would think 100+lbs in the back and 3 crew people would really make a difference.

[dchristman]

@nando I just got notification from ebay this morning on another set of those weights up for auction if you're still looking:

 

ebay.com/rcm/v1/?itm=331523443338

 

EDIT: scratch that - those were the ones that I bought.

[LeonL]

@RAWSki what if the observer weighs a lot more than the driver?

[RAWSki]

You got me @LeonL ....I guess dump the ballast H20! I usually bring along a 25# and 40# weight bag for fine tuning at tourneys...... or move the obsrvr toward the center and give him a salad? (The tank is really designed for those two person practice sets)

[Nando]

dchristman- thanks, but I think I've got a line on three where I won't have to pay for shipping!

[LeonL]

@rwaski, aw I was just joking around. Since the ballast must presume that the driver is the heavy one. I'm about 160 and I've had some rather hearty boat judges.

[Wayne]

I've been looking for cheaper pre made weights to ballance my boat for just a driver and came across the tractor "suitcase" weights. I've see them hanging on the nose of pulling trucks and farm tractors for years. I live in the sticks so the local hardware store sells them but they are pretty cheap on eBay.

[dchristman]

@wayne good find! It looks like literally tons of those on ebay :)