Collecting inside hip at the point of handle connection

[Deep11]

Working through the dynamics of body position through the course I've been looking at the point at which I catch the handle with the free hand. If the goal is to keep the handle "connected" through the acceleration and edge change then it seems that the handle has to be connected initially when I grab the handle. The back of the turn is where a lot of the problems happen for me and watching video it seems that I am not connecting properly at this point.

If not connected immediately and the pull comes on, there is no chance of getting it back.

Looking at the videos of pros (and any confident short line skier) it looks as though there is a definite first action at the completion of the turn - right when the handle is grabbed, and the boat pulls, the inside hip comes up (left hip going from 1 - 2 )effectively connecting the hips to the handle ( "power triangle" style). Once connected the acceleration and "driving the ski through" takes place.

It is really easy to see this on the "on side" for pretty much everyone, slightly less obvious on the offside, but it is there.

 

Note: I am not referring to "skiing open or west coasty" style, this is purely right at the point of grabbing the handle and the boat gives the first pull - after that comes all the technique points raised in "light on the line" and "edge change" discussions.

 

Often you see the direction of the ski change - towards the boat slightly- while the hip is raised and connected to the handle, then direction is regained and acceleration comes on.

Now given the "magic words" aspect of this sport and the regular misinterpretation of what we see pros do on videos I am quite prepared to accept that I am spending far to much time watching videos and not enough time actually skiing. Would any of you short line guys confirm (or otherwise) whether this is an important aspect of finishing the turn or if I should stop thinking about skiing and concentrate on my needlework until the weather gets better.

 

 

Many thanks.....

 

Kevin

[Razorskier1]

About the only thing I can say is yes, you want connection and stack before the boat gets a hold of you. That is the most efficient way to get it done. This is not to say that you can't force your way to that position after the boat gets you (I do it too often), but that is far less efficient.

[Horton]

@Deep11‌ I think this is a misunderstanding. I suspect what you are looking at is actually skiers recovering from an imperfect turn. Pretty sure you are making it too complex.

[ToddL]

I am inclined to agree with @Horton on this. If you are watching Pros at their hardest or next to hardest pass, then they are probably struggling a little and working to recover to get one more buoy (or half or quarter). Watch their middle passes in a set. That's what we need to study and desire to emulate.

[Deep11]

Thanks guys, you are probably right and I am quite prepared to have misunderstood what is going on. Before I put it bed however there is a chance I'm just not describing my thoughts terribly well.

What I know is that : Over rotating at the end of the turn - if you can hang onto it - causes disconnect between the handle and the hips, loss of direction and a "save" by getting on the back of the ski - certainly no dynamic edge change - On the other hand having the hips more open at the point of connection reduces the load felt and allows a more forward lean and acceleration. Giving you a chance to "drive" into the wakes.

My point was that if you think about connecting the inside hip (more open) just at the point of catching the handle, you are more on the front foot and you will reduce the hit of the rope tightening and have the opportunity for everything else to take place.

 

Finishing the turn into the perfect stack and connection should be the goal but happens all too infrequently. So how do you explain to someone how to achieve the start point of the stack (finish of the turn)?

(To even think about this we have to assume that the skier gets there in good shape and the right speed.)

 

Unfortunate whilst I've heard many skiers being advised to "delay taking the handle" or "let the ski finish the turn" I rarely see it having the effect they are trying to achieve.

 

@toddl - I agree, what I am talking about is there at every pass 13m - 10.25m, it's easier to see as definite movement at the shorter passes - again, if no one out there thinks like this I'm clearly obsessing too much - pass my beer :)

 

Note: I too spend an increasing amount of time in a coaching role, so getting the words and thoughts right is really helpful - thanks to BOS for helping get my head straight.

[Horton]

@Deep11‌ would a better topic be how to keep you from overturning?

[ToddL]

"So how do you explain to someone how to achieve the start point of the stack (finish of the turn)?" - @Deep11 By having it before the apex of the turn. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

But honestly, that is it. If the skier doesn't have to move shoulders forward/drop butt back, then there isn't any action necessary to get back into stack. Conversely, I would agree with you that when a skier's turn results in any amount of hips behind or lagging in finishing the turn, then an action is necessary to regain stack. As you describe it, moving the left hip when existing 1 ball into a connected to the handle position is one way to think about regaining stack. It is one way to describe how to get the COM moving in the direction you want to go. As you complete the turn, your COM needs to be moving toward the other side of the lake to get the acceleration going. If your hips are behind you then so is your COM.

 

I think most average skiers lose connection (handle control) during the edge change and don't fully recover their "stack" during the approach to the apex of the turn. Thus, they are slightly hips back at the end of the turn and have to correct as you describe. I have been working on handle control/connection during edge change followed by a rise up and over my front foot as I approach the turn. This rise up and forward is my stack re-acquisition movement and I want to do it before the apex. When I am successful, I have less to do at the completion of the turn and have less to no hit from the boat, smoother transition into acceleration, and better stack in the following lean.

[Deep11]

Yup that'll work too - bit more "snappy" than mine :)

[skiep]

What I see so many times is skier is in a good stack in the pre turn. As the ski goes out away from handle to apex the skier is in a lean but instead of holding that same lean and sking around the buoy, they continue to lean even more to a point when the ski comes between them and the boat and the load comes on from the boat POW! can't hold the enormous load.

[mwetskier]

@Deep11 -i know this is a small side point but in your initial post you used the phrase ' power triangle ' and described it as connecting the left hip with the handle when going from 1 -2. as far as i know that ' power triangle ' concept originates with chris rossi. in the article he wrote several years ago about that its really easy to miss interpret what he considers the 3 connection points that make up his ' power triangle '. in your example above of going from 1 -2 the connection points are the right hand the handle and the right hip. you reference the *left* hip but if you re read what rossi wrote you'll see that is not part of his ' power triangle ' concept.

 

not saying your wrong in what your proposing technique wise just clarifying what rossi described when he used that term.

[Deep11]

@mwetskier - totally agree, I wasnt trying to reference the Rossi article but really making the point (I accept badly) that when you connect you shouldn't forget about the inside hip. The further the inside hip is back - away from the boat and handle - the more potential for overturn and drag there is. (I don't think I could get my inside hip anywhere near the handle without the outside hip being connected)