Greatest Misconceptions and Misunderstandings & why

[Horton]

@bishop8950 the 中国 is because @AdamCord‌ said "I attempted to explain this to @Horton a few weeks ago and I think he thought I was speaking Chinese".

 

He is right.

[bishop8950]

@horton thanks, I can be a bit slow at times

[Horton]

Ok @AdamCord‌ @bishop8950‌ @Bruce_Butterfield‌ @Than_Bogan‌

 

First of all I believe that you guys understand something I do not. I believe you but I totally do not get it. Sadly you guys can use that physics and math crap. I got my degree at NLU/ULM so that mathy stuff is not going to work for me. ( @luzz you can laugh now) Below is how I see it.

 

So in my tiny skier brain I believe that at the centerline => the handle is going down the lake at the same rate as the pylon. The ski is also sliding down the lake at the same rate (as long as the skier has not started transition / edge change). I do not see how the load in my hands is not the same as the load in my feet.

 

i do see many intertwined factors contributing to the actual load.

 

The greater the rate of travel across the course compared to the rate of travel down the course the less total load.

 

The greater the angle the greater the load.

 

The greater the drag on the ski the less the rate of cross course travel. The flatter the ski is in the water (tip to tail) the less drag it has and more efficient it is.

 

Where I get l lost is lean. I know that I need to roll the ski over to hold cross course direction. SOME amount of lean creates more cross course speed and beyond a certain point more roll and more lean makes ski plow water and create drag? As I lean more and roll the ski over more I am also pushing the ski deeper in the water and creating even more drag?

 

The very best skiers in the world carry more speed out of the ball so they can lean less to achieve the same speed at the centerline.

[bishop8950]

While I have a degree in chemistry, studied physics in college and work for a very technical science based company, physics/math have not directly answered many questions I have on how to ski better. For me its all what I am able to feel and what I can do as an athlete to influence things on the water largely manipulated by coaching from people that have never studied math or physics. For others I believe and accept physics are key foundational element of how they understand, diagnose and improve their skiing. If nothing else, its academically interesting especially this time of year.

 

For @Hortons questions there will be a skier out there with the right balance of physics and athletic technique to explain in ENGLISH what Horton wants to know. Maybe Marcus?

 

My two cents for what its worth: If the question is can you add too much lean and roll where it becomes detrimental? I think YES if you do it too soon or too late. Too soon is off the ball and too late is past the centerline. But if you are in the right spot to accelerate I am not sure too much is bad as much as its just not necessary. If you roll "too much" and have the power and technique to get it right you may end up Mapple early and double pump your pre-turn. But if you roll "too much" and the load pulls you apart you may find yourself ejecting into front flips or more likely getting yanked up by the boat at the second wake instead of letting your ski cast out. Horton may say "yes, already there on these points..."

 

When I try to be light on my feet past the centerline it is so I can let my ski swing out. I have no problem generating enough speed into the wakes. I have some difficulty letting my self ski into enough angle. I have more problems body mechanically into the wakes. But I think my major opportunity is how I move out off the second wake which of course starts much earlier than that. Anyway, when I am light in my feet through the centerline it helps and maybe this is because there is less drag in the ski and it has more speed or releases easier per some comments above. Maybe its more the conscious unweighting that lets it go. For the times where I load like hell and roll the ski over to what feels like 90 degrees and still manage to be athletic enough to unweight and change edges everything is fine and it feels really good, just risky and hard to repeat.

 

[Luzz]

@Horton‌ :# :# :#

[Than_Bogan]

Ok, time for me to add two more common misconceptions:

1) Good water skiers understand physics.

2) Understanding physics is a great way to become a better skier.

 

I really enjoy exploring the underlying physics and math, and as I've said many times before, you gotta exploit whatever advantages you have. But even for me, there's not a ton of extra buoys to be earned from a deeper understanding of the physics.

 

In particular, I don't think it's even worth me discussing whether having different load on different parts of your body is possible without causing deformation or rotation, because what really matters to a skier is what it FEELS like is happening and what is the best thing to THINK you are doing in response.

 

I think Kevin is using the "right" type of verbiage here: associating it with what you can experience.

 

But maybe if I get bored I'll try to hit on some physics. If so, it is certain that I, too, will botch it. Physics in this sort of system is Goddamn Hard, but sometimes a feeble understanding is better than none.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton, I think it may help you if you stop thinking about load and put in terms of what you actually want: Speed. In order to get more speed out of the buoy, you need acceleration, which means load. Of course, the trick is to load in such a way that you maximize your acceleration without trying to stop the boat. I think you understand this, but don’t know “How”. Join the club.

 

I think the better answer is that you want as much load as you can possibly handle while maintaining control/body position. If you get pulled out of position, you bit off more than you could chew. The really high end skiers generate tons of load – but they stay in control.

 

One of my favorite visualizations of this is to think of a cartoon character squeezing the bottom of a banana so that the banana pops out and goes flying. Too much pressure or in the wrong spot and you have a smashed banana (overturn, overload and sink)

 

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield‌ I don't think so.

 

We agree that speed = good.

 

I suspect that the path to the most speed is not the greatest lean.

[Horton]

so I broke down an called @AdamCord‌ on the way to the lake today for a quick lesson in remedial ski physics.

 

I learned that "Bungie Cord" is keeping Adam up nights so all conversations are semi circular.

 

I also think I mostly understand how the load in my hands is not exactly the same as the load in my feet. As Adam tried to tell me the load in my hands largely a function of my acceleration around the arc. He has tried to explain this to me about 1,000,000 so far. (I am not using the word pendulum because that starts a whole other argument.) The load in my feet is (largely?) a function of the skis drag. (@AdamCord‌ am I close?)

 

Where I am still lost is how to apply any of this to skiing. Part of the problem is skiing is an Infinite Vicious Circle. You start talking about what to do at the white water going to the wakes and the answer may really be at the white water after the wakes going to the previous ball.

 

The one thing that I think is most wacky and hard to understand for most skiers is the idea that the load on the feet of a super elite skier can be very light at the centerline. This is one of the only things in this topic that is think I have a handle on. As I stated above... The greater the rate of travel across the course compared to the rate of travel down the course the less total load on the feet. So if the skier has done all the right things before this moment they have as much speed as possible.

 

More speed means the ski is traveling more forward than toward the pylon / less side slip drag = less load.

More speed means the ski will flatten out / less roll and have less forward drag = less load.

 

Where my "Wile E. Coyote" understanding of physics breaks down is explaining how the load in the skiers hands is greater at this point. Acceleration yadda yadda yadda. I think that after talking for Cord and writing this I do get it but I will have lost it by the time I hit send :- )

 

[Horton]

Seems like the subject of edge change is the source of so many missconceptions.

 

I think a lot of the right answers are found in this thread http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12553/the-load-explode-early-edge-change but I thought I would capture it here because it is so missunderstood by so many skiers.

[Chet]

I get the privlidge to either ski with or at least discuss slalom with both Nate and Regina multiple times a year.

One conversation I never hear is ....when or where to switch or change edges.

The conversation is one of the boats constant and continual value. In other words not should I pull long or short but instead how do I make the boat keep pulling on me even as I am coming up and out of my pull.

In my opinion good jumpers have been doing a version of this for a long time. While on one ski exiting the wake they continue to ride the boats energy as they begin rising out of their max leverage position. They use as much of the boats value for as long as possible trying to gain a mechanical (boat) advantage.

 

In my opinion this idea gives the slalom skier more follow through at the back of the buoy and on to the wake.

It pretty much lets them take as much ankle as they want and have little if any worry as to whether they will be able to hold it. The more important question they seem to want to know is can they continue to reuse it over and over again.

If angle is basically where the tip of the ski is pointed and a lean is designed to hold that angle once established then body alignment must be used to help anatomically support that lean.

Riding the boats energy is basically all that remains.

Anatomical, directional and mechanical advantage.

When I see them apply it and see how easy they make it look it just makes me hungry to go ski and try.

[Wish]

@Chet that is really good stuff. We see so many skiers 34 and 36 getting it done at deep short line with varied edge change locations. I think we spend to much time trying to figure out when is the best point to change edges per line length, speed and skill set. And then take it one step further in the wrong direction and try and emulate a particular skier pro or otherwise.

[Horton]

For those needing something to read... here is a CLASSIC.

[KRoundy]

That was worth my time. Thanks!

 

[colo_skier]

@Horton For those needing something to read... here is a CLASSIC.

Is there a link or something indicated?

[Than_Bogan]

@colo_skier This whole thread!

 

(Panda fishing?)

[colo_skier]

@Than_Bogan What do you use for bait for those that are Geek challenged? :) >:)

[Horton]

I was watching an Open skier last week who was pushing the handle forward thinking it was bringing his whole body (COM) forward. In reality he was leaning his shoulders forward and dropping his hips back.

 

Handle forward approaching apex is an interesting concept but it is a skill that I screw up most of the time when I attempt it. I would really like to learn to bring my inside hip and handle forward from center line to the ball like. Maybe that will be a fucus for me this year.

[aupatking]

If the guy in the boat says, “bend your knees” I ignore anything else that comes out of his mouth. Bending my knees to “absorb the wake”, FOR ME, and most I’ve seen, is in essence, putting brakes on at the moment you need to carry speed the most. I think several things lead to that speed loss: When you bend your knees anticipating the wake hit, you create separation from the handle, and guarantee a late/narrow path to the buoy. That’s the biggest in my mind.

With the legs “straight” and the body stacked, handle low at the hip, the “cutting” of the first wake with good angle, SKI ANGLE, NOT LEAN ANGLE, seems to be the most critical area of speed retention for guys trying to move out of long line. Lean angle of the ski is necessary, but should be the byproduct of good ski angle (cross course) not the other way around.

I was thinking about it this morning. I’ve never seen a guy ski with “legs too straight”. Not on a slalom ski, at least.

[mwetskier]

regarding reaching forward at the ball i think it might have been rossi who said you want to have an imaginary bungee cord between your inside hip and your elbow of the reaching arm. this is to help you push your inside hip forward as you reach forward so that your hips don't go out behind you in the turn.

[Horton]

@aupatking I for sure think about and coach "straighter" legs. There is a bit of humor and exaggeration mixed in also. For most skiers knee bend means moving your hips back. IF you are skilled enough to drive your knees AND ankle forward that is way better. That gets your COM farther forward and that is really the goal.

 

For me as an old guy who runs 38 on a good day trying to have "straighter" and stronger legs at the centerline means I will have make more speed across the course.

[aupatking]

@Horton exactly what I meant, in WAY fewer words. Thank you sir. I think if long liners understood the bend needs to start at the ankles, it would be a way better platform to build from.

[A_B]

Someone look for the LISA article written by Dave Benzel in Spray or WSM where he measured Mapple’s load and plotted where it was in the pass. He peaked at almost 1000 pounds right behind the boat at 10.75m. He probably weighed 165 pounds, give or take.

 

Please define “light” on the line.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@aupatking, NEVER call Horton “sir”

[Horton]

@a_b "light on the line" is the art of going no harder than you have to. That LISA data was the from Perfect Pass or hand drive era and long before Mapple was skiing on all carbon skis. I would bet 7 out of 10 of the top guys who run 39 today will tell you they think about when and how much they load. As the rope gets shorter the perceptions change but no one is skiing better by pulling as hard as then can from apex and past the second wake.

[chris55]

I agree and I would like to say also that "the art" is to pull at the right place for the right amount of time and with the right ski angle needed along the speed and rope length. And I think that Nate is the "kind of" master of the 3 aspects at the same time. Maybe you can call that handle managment...but I am not experienced enough to say I am 100% right with that statement.

[A_B]

@Horton I will agree no one wants to go as hard as possible as soon as they jump in the water. My point is that there is nothing “light”’about the resistance required to run short line. I think it is a bad label and gives some folks the idea that it doesn’t require work.

 

The only person who was successful skiing coordinates and/or light on the line was a Dentist up north and we all know that story.

[Brady]

Okay, as a crappy skier who is working hard to increase the ball count, I have a hard time with the “getting stacked” part of the turn. Watching most shorteline skiers as they come out of the apex of the turn, it is as if a cannon was just shot and the effort looks minimal at best, yet they are flying across and waiting for the next ball. I feel like I load up and then proceed with what I FEEL is tremendous speed across the wake, but upon reviewing video really looks like “poetry in motion”. It is depressing as hell.

[A_B]

Some tips from the kid from Indiana.

 

Nate

 

 

https://www.waterskimag.com/nate-smiths-top-slalom-tips#page-3

[Chris Rossi]

"Pulling harder will make me earlier to the next buoy". This mentality starts from the very first time skiers try the course (cause its wicked hard) and continues all the way to the pros. My mental vision of this concept is that the skier believes that if they pull/lean/leverage against the boat like superman/superwoman, they can somehow pull the boat backwards, creating more time/space coming into the next buoy. While this may have been true prior to speed control driven boats, now all that comes of this are extremely high loads on the body entering the wakes with subsequent loss of position (hips back, body forward, crush), and loss of direction off the second wake. This sends the skier inside of the optimal line out to the buoy which makes the skier feel fast and lacking space to make a good turn. This poor turn entry then leads to a hard turn attempt and the feeling that this process needs to be repeated in order to catch up on the following buoy.

[Horton]

@Chris Rossi This is really fascinating stuff. I want to pull a lot less but as the rope gets shorter my IQ gets lower. :)

[colo_skier]

My IQ is in my butt so leaning and dragging my butt does indeed lower my IQ.

[A_B]

I was told by a reliable source about 45- years ago to build resistance into the wake and grunt behind the boat, not at the buoy. Pretty simple concept to think about.

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell please expand on your "disagree" (100 words or less if possible :- ).

 

 

[thager]

@Horton @adamhcaldwell knows it is impossible for your IQ to get lower! :#

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@ Horton it’s simple physics. To ski a shorter line, you need more speed. More speed means more acceleration, which in turn means more force.

 

The common thing most skiers don’t understand is that when you load the rope there are 2 components -

1) a braking, or drag, component (think of the ski at 90 deg to the rope) and

2) an accelerating component (think of the ski pointing on the direction you want to go).

 

If you turn the ski 90 deg to the rope, you can pull your guts out and not go anywhere. If you point the ski in the direction you want to go, all your rope load will translate to acceleration, which is what you want.

 

Obviously the trick is to maximize your acceleration component and minimize the drag component. Once you get close to a good balance, you still have to “pull” as hard as you possibly can to run shorter lines.

 

The conundrum comes into play for each skier’s perception of load, drag and acceleration. For example if you perceive you are loading less, you may simply be getting a better acceleration/drag ratio and a given pass will feel easier. BUT if you can keep that same ratio AND load the rope MORE, you will be able to run a shorter line.

 

To further complicate things, the perception of load and ski angle for optimum acceleration/drag is different at each point in the course.

 

 

If I understand Rossi’s comments, he is cautioning against the load for load sake and getting excessive “braking component”

 

Bottom line is that you still need to generate as much speed as you can while attempting to maintain control. When the rope gets short, control gets sacrificed for speed.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield You bring up a subject where I am very much unsure of the correct answer.

 

My idea is something like

At any angle approaching the wakes there is a specific amount of load where any additional load is only a detriment. Leaning harder is only going to drive the ski into the water / increase drag AND decreases the skiers level of control.

 

What I am 100% sure of is many of my smoothest 38s have required the least physical effort. Why that is true is the question.

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield to put it another way....

 

Does more lean really make more speed? This sounds like a whacky question - I know. We all feel like if we are in trouble we must lean harder. You need to lean hard enough to get as much angle as you can take but beyond that how does more mean make more speed.

[BraceMaker]

@Chris Rossi knowing that they'll do this, what could be coached/drilled to someone who is just starting to "actually" slalom ski, not the person who's dragging behind the boat and tentatively going out one side, but someone who's starting to want to cut across the wakes to stop them from learning to pull?

 

@Bruce_Butterfield - its such a fascinating thing to ponder. Drag/acceleration/velocity/tension are all vectors.

 

Tension is always pointed straight at the pylon, and drag should technically be a vector away from velocity. So you can increase tension by leaning away, but you can increase drag in a number of ways.

 

Since the tension is always pointed at the pylon the component that is beneficial varies, but there would always technically be the fact that it is pointed at an object moving down course with fixed speed that can be utilized to provide acceleration.

 

Watching the other thread closely.

 

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton - I think my thumbs must have wandered.....lol..Sorry. That was not an intentional dislike.

 

Like Rossi said, we cannot pull the boat backwards to create more space, that certainly is a misconception. But does that mean we shouldn't pull?

 

For me, pulling harder certainly equates to being earlier at the next buoy.

 

At the risk of offending anyone, I am not a big advocate of the 'light on the line' or 'not pulling too hard', because I would be lying to you if I said pulling harder doesn't make me earlier to the next buoy. It sure as hell does, and that is exactly what we do when we get behind in a pass.

 

@Bruce_Butterfield raises some great points. And like Horton said, sometimes the smooth passes do evolve out of the least physical effort. But, I think a lot of that is perception - your still pulling hard, its just different when your actually getting somewhere with it and not just digging holes.

 

A subtle change in timing or position can put your body, and ski in a great position to accept the pull from the boat and gain near effortless acceleration. But does that mean you should go out with a thought process of pulling less the next time - or tell your ski buddies 'don't pull so hard'?

 

The problem isn't 'the pull', or the effort behind it. The problem is just the understanding behind what a strong pull is, and how to make it work the best within the constraints of the system.

 

Perhaps the misconception is 'be light on the line'.

 

 

[Horton]

@adamhcaldwell If you are pulling hard enough to maintain your current path does pulling harder move you to an earlier line?

[Horton]

Just had an interesting conversation with Nicholas Parsons about this subject. I think the question should be revised to the following: "Does additional lean decrease side slip & therefore increase water speed?"

[Ed_Johnson]

I would say that forward lean in the direction of travel will increase speed, but straight lean against the boat or rearward lean would just plow water.

 

[A_B]

Ed,

In my group we watch for tip pressure when leaning. Our dumb theory is that if you think about tip pressure with hips up going toward the wake, you will avoid the dreaded wheelie on the last 18” of the ski. There isn’t enough leverage or resistance in the water if you ride the back of the ski, so no speed created. In effect, you could call this “leaning forward” but I prefer to talk about tip pressure. My mind understands that and apparently, so do my friends.

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B ... I guess my point is that you need to be leaning forward, ahead of the ski, to create that tip pressure. Neutral to rearward just won't create it, thus a loss of acceleration.

 

[A_B]

Totally ageee Ed.

[Ed_Johnson]

@A_B .. Great minds think a like...Now, if only we could do it every time !!!!

 

[Adam Caldwell]

@Horton,

 

The waters interaction with the bottom of the ski is not much different then the wind in a sail of a sailboat.

 

The ski just a wing that uses water instead of air.

 

The tunnel by designed does exactly what you stated. It acts to help decrease side slip, increase lift, and thus increase the overall reaction force neccessary to drive you forward and increase speed.

 

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton, the thing is that there is no “correct” answer. How much load you should try to get depends on many things. For starters:

 

- Where you are between the buoy and wakes

- How much speed you have at that point in time – if your ski speed is 80mph, you don’t need any more load. If you stuff a buoy and almost stop, you better get after it.

- Angle of the ski - did you crank the turn and actually get the ski 90 deg to the boat or make a school bus turn?

- What line length are you at relative to your ability level?

- Are you downcourse and scrambling or wide, early and waiting on the next buoy?

- Are you in the body position to take advantage of a strong lean? Stacked and forward for acceleration or weight back where a big lean will put the brakes on?

 

What the goal really is is to maximize the speed while maintaining a reasonable amount of control. If you do this perfectly, a hard pass will “feel” easy. You are maximizing acceleration while keeping only enough drag to keep cross course angle. But if there was force gauge on the rope I’ll bet a case of IPA that the max force on the “easy feeling” pass will be just as high as a scrambling hair on fire pass. It just seems easier.

 

While I “think” the intention of the “light on the line” idea is to make the leans efficient and not dig holes and put the brakes on, I think the majority of skiers misunderstand it. Think of timing of load? Sure. Think of being smooth? Yep. Keep speed high so you don’t have to re-generate speed? Absolutely. Easy pull/lean on your hardest pass? NEVER.

 

[mwetskier]

when I think about the idea of bringing speed into and through the turn I envision what NASA does when they ' slingshot ' a spacecraft around a planet (for example earth) in order to change its direction and increase its speed. In our case theres no gravitational field associated with the buoy so it can't help us accelerate, but the more efficiently we turn the ball the less work we have to do to be on time to the next one. imo as always