Killer Turns at 15 off Not Needed

[A_B]

I have been working with 3 college kids learning to slalom the course. They all try to crank the turns at 15 off and then pop up behind the boat or can't hold edge through both wakes. When I get them to focus on easy turns finishing with hips up and lock the handle into their waist and lean away with straight arms, without exception, they run easy passes. I keep telling them you run long line passes between the wakes not the turns.

 

Anyone out there struggling with the same affliction? Try it and see if it works for you.

[RazorRoss3]

I work almost exclusively with college kids trying to run the course (I'm on a college team, what would you expect). In my experience they pull too hard in the wrong place and stamp the back foot trying to power turn it at the buoy. If you could get them to settle down and work from hook up to wake and relax in the turn you'd have a while ski team of ran passes.

[usaski1]

Hi, My name is Mark, and I have an addiction. overslalomturnitis. I cant stop myself.

 

I agree with what you say, @AB but I cant make myself quit. I've heard it before, and I've tried it, but I always think I'm not going to make it. I can't stay down through the wakes and its KILLING ME.

[MISkier]

My ski partner just said to me this week: "That was a great 38 off turn....too bad you're at 28 off".

 

When I am floating in the middle of the course 4 feet in front of the boat guides after such a turn, I still remain baffled on how to prevent that.

[gregy]

Wade Cox told me to be little on my feet. That I was jamming the turns.

[cragginshred]

 

This is my -22 turn. Scott Rabeneau told me to save it for -32

[ctsmith]

15 offer here running 32 mph working on 34. Cant tell you how many times i've heard skiep say not to try to turn like its 38. Hear the same thing about gates. Being RFF with a decent on side stack but terrible off side I have a habit of trying to run the pass at 1 and come into it way hot and getting on the tail.

[escmanaze]

Yup, this is exactly what I do. When I'm running my 30 mph passes, I take it easy, do it just right, and have a good time. When running my 32mph passes, I get intimidated, try too hard, and get pulled out of position. I'm hoping it will go away as I get more and more confident running 32 mph so that I won't feel like I have to rush so darn much.

 

[Waternut]

So I'm that A-hole that never gets on the bandwagon...Sorry... I agree with you that the pull through the wake is still very important. However, I feel that one bad turn at 28-35off can be almost entirely recovered with a strong pull through the wakes but at 15off, one bad turn is really hard to recover from. To me it seems like every little mistake domino's and there is no coming back.

 

Last year I was still hanging on to my 15 off pass because I figured I needed 2-3 passes that were possible before attempting my hardest pass at the time of 32off. I failed to run 15off more than I failed 22 and 28off at the time.

[cragginshred]

Yes,...SO depart -15 ASAP. -19 was solo key to an intro to -22 for me. -15 has waaaay too much rope length. Point to focus on here is Slow the pass down via patient, finished turns and progressive white water to water pulls.

[skihard]

I spent the afternoon with Trent F yesterday and again his focus what "Do It Right!" Like a lot of people who are self taught we ski in poor positioning & alignment and work too hard the WRONG way!

I'm running 16 meters (22 off) now about 75% of the time.

After yesterday if I apply exactly what he instilled in me I will nail it EVERY TIME! Stay aligned, FINISH the turn. And carry the load across the wake and initiate your edge change and repeat.

The problem is; for me anyways, when I get late or a little messed up - I revert to my old habits thinking it will help? WRONG!!!!

I need to trust what Trent is teaching me. He's a great coach, great skier, and a great mentor to many who are sitting on podiums. Ok I best apply what I've been taught!

Today is another great day for skiing! :)

Have fun all!

[ski6jones]

@skihard, If you are really working on technique just stop skiing when you start to revert to old bad habits. Break down what you did wrong, go to the other end and start over doing it right. You'll reinforce good habits rather than bad. I realize you can't and won't always do this (me either), but if you are really trying to get a new technique into muscle memory it does work.

 

Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Definitely worth putting in place anything Trent tells you.

[rq0013]

I like to preach keeping the distance between your hands and feet short. Aka ride the ski. You don't need to turn hard at all to run 15 and 22 at 36mph

[Than_Bogan]

@Waternut I think ultimately you're saying almost the same thing. At -15, you can't recover a mistake with a killer turn. That will just leave you in the drink. You CAN recover it with a really strong pull* taking advantage of the longer zone in which the rope is at a low angle and so can be loaded effectively.

 

*At least I think I remember it that way and it makes sense in theory. I have to admit it's been a long time since I skied -15, and that I don't miss it.

[skibumsam]

Just a thought from a beginner...

Are the skiiers you are working with new to the course and the monster turns are a result of being late at the beginning of the course.

 

I just recently skiied the course for my first time ever and was very hesitant through the gates giving me a very late start at ball one and a domino effect leading to a very tough (late) pass. I felt like I was having to kill a turn right at the bouy vs transitioning across the wakes and initiating my turn before the bouy.

 

*p.s. please check out my post on my profile and comment advice. Still working on getting a video up but should be done tonight!

[Cam]

@AB‌ see it all the time and know it is one of the things that has slowed my progress in the slalom course, I can still slam a turn to backside the buoy at -28 when I don't have to and either end up swimming or not completing the pass for no reason other than I have always done it that way and it is hard to shake off my bad foundation no matter how I try.

[A_B]

They have been skiing the course for just a couple years, off and on, and trying to advance seriously now.

A big turn and hookup by a beginning skier usually ends up in a lot of angle early, then letting up in the critical zone behind the boat, as they can't hold the edge as well as an advance skier. This inevitably pulls them narrow into the next ball. It is far better to relax in the turn and let the ski finish with a proper hookup and then lock-in your core through both wakes.

[skibumsam]

@AB I definitely have this problem. Trying to learn to let my self just relax and allow the ski to finish the turn.

[jhughes]

Killer turns are, I believe, what my biggest problem with transitioning to -28 has been. My best, deepest, or complete -28 passes at 34 occur when I'm quiet, balanced, and soft on the ski during the turn. This is the single biggest factor, far and above gates, gate width, turn in, glide, stack, pull intensity, you name it. Nothing has been as important to me as being soft on the ski in the turn. Almost like I'm trying to tip-toe around the ball. No coach or school has noticed this, or mentioned it to me ever, btw. They've all noticed good stuff, for sure, but nobody has mentioned that I was turning too hard or pushing the ski through the turn. I don't know if it's something easily caught by eye because it's a real "feel" thing. If you are struggling transitioning into short lines, pay attention to this.

[Craig]

My hypothesis is that this problem just manifests more often in beginners but has less to due with line length and more to do with how to approach a ski set.

 

I think it is a common problem for people to over-ski their harder passes at ANY line length. It doesn't matter if your hard pass is 38off or 28mph if you are not used to running the pass you are going to feel like you need to try harder which often leads to over-skiing.

 

I also think it is a common problem for people learning the course to not have enough passes in their arsenal so pass 1 or 2 is the hard pass for them. The result a proportionally higher amount of over-skiing in beginners.

 

I can remember when a good day was 3-4 buoys at 32mph, but my starting speed was 30 mph and I typically would only run it once and move on. In retrospect, I should have spent more time at 28 and 30mph and tried to work on specific goals with my body position (volume sets). I also would have spent more time asking for specific feedback. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20, and at the time I didn't know what I didn't know.

 

My point is, as a beginner you tend to not know how to approach skiing and tend to fight for more buoys. As you improve, and discover the value in more systematic ski sets this tends to naturally reduce the amount of over-skiing.

[Niles Taylor]

I'm heading out tonight to get a few runs through the course. I just starting skiing the course this summer and after a few sets I've run 4 at -15, 28 mph. I've made a mental list for myself for tonight's set to get me prepared to make a full pass. Here's what I've come up with.

 

1. Wide gate.

2. Lead with my hips.

3. Keep my head up.

4. Keep my weight on the front foot and keep my knees bent.

5. Anchor my elbows.

6. Get my hip forward to get to my hands / handle.

7. Pull through the second wake.

 

Good, bad, thoughts?

[A_B]

Might be too long to remember, so 1 is easy, just get wide on setup.

 

Then focus on 2/5/7, which is pretty much related.

[Niles Taylor]

It's probably all out the window as soon as I make my pullout.

[A_B]

Niles, focus on proper form in a strong wide pullout, then proper form through the gates, you ought to be able to remember the first 2 pulls, that will help set your muscle memory for the rest....

[crashman]

@AB regarding leading with the hips through the gate- tell me more about how I can accomplish this. should I think about this as a lateral movement of the hips or rotation of the hips? I'm LFF and ski on an ultra short setup so the gate shot is a challenge.

[skihard]

@ski6jones you are 100% right and when skiing with Trent he makes me stop skiing when it's not right, go to the end, and start again!

It's my own bad doing that needs fixing but yes it makes complete sense when trying to master memory.

[A_B]

Crashman, the first thing to do on the glide is to make sure your standing tall on the ski with your handle low. I like to see the right hip pushed forward and then It is a matter of rotating the left hip around as you move the handle from right hip to left hip. If you are not tail riding, the boat will support your lean away from the boat, and it is a simple job to keep your arms straight with handle on your hip, as it is already there. Sometimes, it may help to drop your inside hip lower to help roll the ski on edge, but you still need to push your left hip up with right arm pressure as you enter the foam and first wake, to keep your shoulders away from the boat. If you have this position at the second wake, you should be able to get pretty early to one ball every time.

[crashman]

@AB looks like I'm a bit on the tail in this glide- maybe some front ankle bend needed?

 

[swardco]

Great thread, very good reminders. My only question now is which one of you great Ballers is going to move to Boulder, CO, ski with me a couple times a week, and give real time feedback so I can begin to stink a little less? ☺

[elr]

I'm re-learning the course after a few years off due to injury. My first few attempts I was overturning and falling back onto the rope. The coaching I have received has been "slow in the turns and fast through the wakes. The way to be slow in the turns is to be very upright and over your ski in the pre-turn and turn (I think "gate shots from both sides"). The way to be fast through the wakes is to be patient and let the ski finish the turn before getting into your lean with your hips forward and handle connected to your hip.

[6balls]

Don't jump lines. Got a buddy that practices crap cuz if he runs his difficult pass once he wants to "try" the next one (shit-show). There is no hope of the next one as he barely ran the prior pass...nothing but hope for scrambled eggs and bad habits. Work a pass you can work over and over and over and over. Build and build solid foundation...it will pay off later.

 

Anytime I run 38 I'm happy as I'm only about a 25%'er, and I may take a gate at 39...but then it's back to 35 or 32 off and work it. No point in punishing myself on 39 over and over when I don't have the fundamentals to run it...go back, re-tool with many repetitions, come back again. Practice really does make perfect but you must practice right.

[crashman]

Volume sets rock! Skied this AM around #6 11 out of 12 passes- working on some of the above. Rounding #6 is fun.

[Blofeld]

I need to hear this at this time of year

[HMan66]

At 30 mph and 15 off I always thought I had to crank the turn so I’d have more time to get through the wakes to the next ball. I skied with a few different coaches and was told to “stand tall into the buoy” and “be patient” through the turn which, at longer lines and slower speeds, needs to be more carve than pivot at the buoy (which kills the speed you need to sync up with the boat). The 30/15 off passes started coming easier with a lot of full passes. I didn’t get much skiing in last year so this season I’ll be back to square one but I’ll be focusing on carrying momentum around the ball (more carve) and being in the correct body position to take the load and accelerate through the wakes. 

[lpskier]

That pretty much works for all line lengths. 

[MDB1056]

Another great timeless thread . Nugget’s for everyone in here.