35+ Skiers Association

[Horton]

As athletes, we have an obligation to protect, enhance and promote the brand of our sport and the companies and products that sponsor our event. As competitors, we must remove even the perception of cheating of any type from our sport to have fair competition.

 

As a positive step toward promoting our sport, giving back as well as isolating any suspected users of Performance Enhancing Drugs (PED) we are organizing a 35+ Skiers Association rooted in the following principals:

 

Mission: A volunteer organization dedicated to building and growing the companies and brands that support and sponsor over 35 water skiing events through fair competition, engaging events and community involvement.

Vision: We will build a world class association that is the model for how athletes build value for companies and brands that support and sponsor worldwide 35+ competitive events.

Values:

Help those who help us

Play Fair

Give Back to our Sport

Aid in promoting current sponsors/partners and bring new sponsors into the sport

Objectives:

Have 100% of Big Dawg series skiers join

Have 100% of Skiers skiing in +35 World Championships join

Unite the athletes, and lead through our actions

Strategy:

Build brand awareness and preference for sponsir products through active promotion

Engage fans using both social and participatory events

Establish rules and standards for competition that increase fan entertainment, participation and engagement.

Tactics:

Protect the brand reputation of sponsors and our sport as well as the safety of our athletes.

Athletes who win prize money or receive a medal agree to volunteer PED testing.

Raise money for charitable causes, the athletes advancing to the “Finals” of an event will participate in a Charity Auction or Bracket Challenge.

Create a higher degree of fan engagement and excitement.

Track and post member athlete competitive statistics such as head to head records, top scores, average scores, conversion rate etc.

Processes:

Train athletes and follow best practices for interviewing and promotion using the NASCAR model.

Establish both online and live charitable events using methods and best practices established for such events.

Follow World Anti-Doping Agency http://www.wada-ama.org best practices where appropriate.

As a first step to organizing these athletes, the Following Big Dawg finalists have volunteered and agreed to PED Testing at the Big Dawg Finals in Texas later this week.

 

Andy Mapple

Ben Favret

Bruce Dodd

Chad Scott

Chet Raley

Chris Clark

Darren Janzig

David Miller

Greg Badal

Harald Hintringer

Jason Seels

Jay Leach

Jed Blackburn

Jeff Rodgers

Jeremy Newby-Ricci

Jerry Goodson

John Shealy

Kevin Bishop

Kris LaPoint

Kyle Jones

Kyle Tate

Marc Shaw

Mark Brandt

Mike Robinson

Scot Jones

Scott Larson

Seth Stisher

Steve Schroeder

Tim Henderson

Tim Huston

Todd Johnson

Todd Kuykendall

Todd Ristorcelli

Ward McLain

[LeonL]

What are these over 35 events you speak of? Regionals, Nationals, or only Big Dawg, Pro and ProAm events etc. I assume you seek to have membership of all who compete in all mentioned above? Sounds like a great vision and objective!

[The_MS]

looks like a lot of it is based on PEDs. Are we thinking that some of them are on the juice?

[eleeski]

Oh no, the witchhunt expands!

 

This is a terrible idea. WADA rules are overly restrictive and may not be in the best interests of the individual athlete's health. Especially for old guys who actually have a medical need for drug choices.

 

Does the sport need the high costs of testing or any more barriers to skiing?

 

I certainly don't want Kirk (or Nate) using anything that will cause cancer, IQ loss or diseases years later. But this is aimed at a bunch of old guys! Honestly, I could care less about performances. The long term health of the athletes is paramount. The ability to compete at all at my age matters.

 

Eric

 

 

[The_MS]

It wont be long and they will run out of M3/4/5 skiers. It is a dwindling bunch. M3 and 4 are skiing on the same lake this year for the first time.

[Razorskier1]

Doesn't seem necessary to test skiers for roids.

[Than_Bogan]

Overall, this seems like a great idea!

 

But it sure seems like the underlying motivation has to do with PEDs, which seems like very much the wrong place to focus right now. First do all those other things to build a sport that people actually care about. Then you can worry about scofflaws.

[animal]

I think the idea has merit, but we really need to think of the group of skiers it's directed at. Older people who often have medical conditions which need treatment.

 

The doping standards would severely limit pain medications, hormone replacement, arthritis treatments, allergy drugs, etc. To comply, athletes would have to forego treatment of many conditions and potentially place their health and well being at risk.

 

The other parts of the proposal are great and will really help our sport. I would do what ever I can in this area to help.

[Horton]

This is a hot topic in some circles but I will not let the finger pointing start here. Any post that directly or indirectly suggests that a skier is on PEDs will simply be removed.

 

Heaven forbid - if some skier actually busts a test I may personally start the witch hunt. Until then please no speculation (slander)

[Horton]

For you guys that do not follow.... you have to run 39 a LOT of times in one weekend to win a Big Dawg. Augmented endurance and recovery could be one hell of an advantage.

 

Keep the playing field level and then argue about other stuff.

[The_MS]

There is no test that cannot be beaten, ask any NFL player.

 

 

[disland]

Does it preclude testosterone replacement if prescribed by a physician?

[skiray]

Man, I wish I was good enough to make y'all wonder...

 

My "juice" is Little Debbie's ...

 

 

Sounds like a good idea @Horton.

[animal]

It is my understanding that International rules forbid all prohibited items even if prescribed. Gives too easy of a loophole.

[Texas6]

No, Testosterone Replacement Therapy likely won't be tolerated UNLESS the dose is low enough to keep testosterone within the pre-determined natural range for your age group. In other words, they aren't going to let you take TRT and run Test at high levels which is sometimes the case with those patients

[eleeski]

@Horton‌ So only old guys who have never been injured, are arthritis free and have no medical problems have a right to win a Big Dawg? As long as they don't use a Goode vest!

 

You have an inflated view of old people competition. Nate is not threatened by the Big Dawg winner. Fun to watch the old guys but the real story may be "how do they stay able to compete?". Goode vests, workout regimens and health care are of far more value than a buoy earned at underspeed.

 

Allow theraputic uses of any drug that improves the health of the athlete. Publish that use so we can see what does improve the health of the athlete. High level athletic performance is a measure of health. I bet Amgen or some other drug company could outsponsor the current sponsors by several orders of magnitude. And old people might get good ideas for what actually works.

 

Drugs in sport became a problem because East German women had serious health problems, pro cyclists were dying on the hard stages of races and football players were getting early unusual cancers. Protection of the health of the athletes drove the original rules. How this got corrupted into the "sanctity of the sport" or a "level playing field" at the expense of the health of an athlete bothers me.

 

Spend the drug testing money on the kids. Young people have enough hormone issues already, make sure there is no supplementation. Stimulants for kids lead to heart problems later. Marijuana causes an 8 point IQ drop in developing brains ( http://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/nida-notes/2013/08/early-onset-regular-cannabis-use-linked-to-iq-decline ). Test to keep the kids healthy. Allow whatever is needed for the old guys. A good break point might be the senior divisions.

 

Eric

[Horton]

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[Than_Bogan]

Not sure I agree with @eleeski, but an interesting and insightful post. Far from panda-worthy!

[Horton]

I call it the way I see it

[Chef23]

I guess I wasn't aware that there was that big a suspicion of PED use in the Big Dawg skiers. I like the mission statement but it seems like the focus is on drug testing not on how to grow the sport.

[Texas6]

This shouldn't be a big deal; any sport that wants to remain legitimate, where the outcome can be influenced by the strength, speed, recovery time, or the endurance of a competitor, should be monitored. Allowing the sport to become questioned in this regard is no way to grow the sport either. Many sports control costs here by limiting testing dollars to only those who place in an event. I don't think they should get too carried away with off season testing, etc. - doing so would keep costs to a couple hundred bucks per event. A small price to pay for preserving integrity

[ScarletArrow]

I'm clueless as to how the drug testing works for pro skiers.

 

Can anyone provide a summary?

 

I know this post is for non-pro 35+ year old skiers competing in the Big Dawg (can we just call them "semi-pro" already)?

 

Could USAWS or the IWSF, handle PED testing?

[eleeski]

I'm collecting Pandas. Even when not deserved.

 

I'm not sure how "integrity" is preserved by restricting access to needed medicines for over the hill aging athletes.

 

I'm not sure how adding significant drug testing costs to a major tournament will enhance dwindling participation.

 

Drug company sponsorship and perhaps even athlete measured case studies could do more for the sport. At least nobody is betting seriously on waterskiing so there is little incentive to disrupt a study. Maybe the seniors will eventually benefit from careful drug health and performance studies. Or I can use my dad's fancy wheelchair too soon.

 

Eric

[Texas6]

Participation and drug testing are mutually exclusive subjects. The goal isn't to restrict needed meds, but to restrict the use of the ones that are abused to gain a competitive advantage. If you have a needed medication, I'm certain there are measures taken to allow for them - In many sports; "needed meds" are used in some cases as a means to game the system, the goal would be to mitigate that but certainly not to kill off the old guys in an effort to clean up the sport. In other words, this isn't a Darwinian effort

[Horton]

@eleeski if we were the same age (thank god I am not that old) - same everything else but I used illegal substances to boost my performance is that good competition?

 

or..... If everyone has access to the same illegal drugs maybe it is an arms race to see who can afford the best stuff or who is willing to endanger their health the most.

 

Is anti doping in cycling a waste of time? In the Olympics? Pro skiers hate to hear it but the BigDawg skiers more relevant than they are. This is a failing of the sport & the subject for another thread but 35+ skiers are the leaders in this sport.

 

I should not have to tell you that this is not about medically needed or prescribed medicines. This is about PEDs. You can squirrel off on some tangent about some med you think may be legit in your opinion but is banned. If that is your argument then as usual you just like to argue and the sound of your own voice.

 

The point for everyone to grasp is the elite 35+ guys are organizing and getting serious.

[animal]

Problem is, Olympic and anti doping rules prohibit all PED's, even those prescribed by physicians for needed medical uses and many normal drugs used as masking agents. Sounds good until you look closely at the details.

 

Drug testing is a hugely complicated issue. Even the most stringent don't stop the use. People a lot smarter than me can't put together fair and effective testing. Create a lot of loopholes for medical necessity and you might as well not have the policy to begin with. I don't say this just to hear my own voice, only to raise legitimate discussion about an issue that is deceivingly complicated.

[TylerR]

Every sport includes some drugs in their ban that can be used as masking agents, that can be prescribed for a perfectly normal reason. Are we really going to raise the bar for entry into the competitive end of our sport even higher? The appeal of the big dawgs is that some of them are average guys who have spent a lifetime working towards the same goal. Is an injury or illness that would still allow you to compete with treatment with one of these "masking" agents really going to be a disqualifier? Are we really going to, as a community, make it harder for people to stick around at a higher level competitively later on in their careers?

[Zman]

Lots of merit to what this 35+ program can do for the sport. The PED part, for now anyway, is on a volunteer basis. Let's see where it goes, and where the high level competitors want to see it go. (I just wish I was good enough to be included, I have had the +35 part covered for a long time). Hmmmm, if that didn't make sense, maybe it's because of all the 8 point IQ drops I had back when my brain was developing....(seriously?)

[jipster43]

I know PED's are a problem, but I really hate that people are having to prove their innocence. Whether it be drug testing on the job or in competition, in America you are innocent until proven guilty and we're supposed to have some modicum of privacy. Does that throw competition out of whack at times? Maybe. But I think constitutional precepts should take precedence.

[Texas6]

@Jipster43; great point- but if this is happening, athletes using PED's, and I believe it is - why can't it be wrong to compete in an event against other skiers who don't have a competitive advantage? This isn't a privacy issue if they choose to compete in an event where they know a level playing field is required. It's an integrity issue for the minority of individuals who ruin it for the majority in our case; and a blemish on the sport itself. The antithesis of what cycling ultimately became wherein the sport has been largely ruined. These guys compete at a really high level as individuals in what is largely considered a family sport - leading by example should be a priority for the leaders of the sport

[9400]

I don't know why we need to test for PEDs. It's not like someone would try something illegal to win a title or set a record...next thing you know y'all will think someone will build a course with turn buoys that move.

[LeonL]

It seems that some of you guys have your head in the proverbial sand. The ability of some Big Dawgs to take multiple practice sets on Friday, ski two qualifying rounds on Saturday, then the equivalent of four rounds on Sunday have caught the attention of many of us "mere mortals". These rounds aren't 22 off. Multiple rounds of 39's are extremely taxing on the body. And it's not just tournament weekend, it's the extreme amount and intensity of practice required to reach and maintain this level. The possibility of "juicing" has been discussed in many circles for some time now. Just the fact the the suspicion is raised is enough, I would think, to urge those that are innocent (hopefully all are innocent) to prove themselves. If you have never even thought about the possibility of "juicing" by these elite skiers, then you're living a Pollyanna existence. The desire, I would think, would be to allay such suspicions.

[webbdawg99]

I just hope that we don't see anyone pull out of the next event "due to injury". If they do, I hope they still agree to testing to remove any suspicion of their true motivation for withdrawing from the event.

[BCM]

I like more organization and promotion in our sport. I have mixed thoughts on the PED testing.

 

The USADA/WADA/Lance debacle in cycling may have "cleaned up" the sport, but it also had major implications for the growth of the sport in the US.

 

Here are a few resources related to WADA and USADA - they may clear up a little about Therapeutic Use Exemptions, banned substances, testing procedures, etc. I would suggest reading them.

- https://wada-ama.org/

- https://wada-ama.org/en/what-we-do/prohibited-list

- http://usada.org/

- http://usada.org/substances/tue/

[The_MS]

They dont even have tests for some of the PEDs that are out there.

 

[Jordan]

Here is my take on the PEDs testing:

 

"Create a level playing field"

- great concept- I'm all for it- except it will never happen. There will always be cheaters.

 

Look at the sports with the most extensive testing.

 

Bike racing is full of drug users. Most of the cheaters who were caught were NOT caught at the time of the event. Is that effective?

 

Olympic sports. Very few positives at the last Olympics; do you believe that's because they were clean ?

 

NFL- huge percentage of users, a few caught each year. Perhaps even served up for public consumption.

 

The ideal of drug testing is honourable and is probably worthy of some level of pursuit. Having said that, it appears that it does very little to actually affect drug use.

 

It's no different in general society. Reagan's war against drugs has cost billions. Are there fewer users today?

 

We as a society pop pills and shoot substances and we don't really understand why. Perhaps it's just the human condition.

 

I believe in sport, the irony is that the very same personality traits that make a winner; the single minded pursuit of a goal, withstanding huge training loads, enduring pain for gain, are the very same traits that allow one to justify using PEDs.

 

I wish you luck with this program, I just have little faith in it being successful.

 

 

[Horton]

I called Ben Favret when I heard all this was coming last week. He made a pretty big point in telling me that this organization is not all about PEDs. Drug testing is part of it but of if you will re-read the original post (written by Ben) you will see that PEDs are a small part of the announcement.

[lottawatta]

The IWWSF will likely require random PED testing for the 35+ world championships already. I know it has been a requirement of IWWSF world competition in the recent past.

 

The over 35 water ski association dues will have to be pretty steep to cover the cost of random testing at the big dawg events. From what I remember, our lowest cost was somewhere around $6000 for something like 20 samples for one event.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton. Excellent. Although this thread has mainly jumped on the PED part, I think that's only because we all so vehemently agree with the rest of it that we have nothing to say about that part!

[Zman]

Let's hope a small deterrent is all we need IF there is any problem to begin with. Hard to imagine our top amateurs would invest too much to cheat the program when the reward for doing so is not multi-million dollar contracts. And, like others have said - I look forward to the other good things brought out in the OP. Also agree with @webbdawg comments, we'll soon see.