Weird Reflex Problem

[lcarnes]

I've been on Reflex for over two years, and have suddenly started have a problem we (all kinds of ski friends) can't figure out or fix. It started when jamming my back foot in the RTP while in the water-the same way I have done it for two years. The front boot started popping out, even after I tested it on the platform. I've never been able to get the ski to release on the platform, even with help. So here's the list of things we've done to attempt to fix it:

 

1) tightened the side screws on the release (fixed it for about 4 sets-they are still tight and now popping again)

2) changed the outer shell twice

3) changed to a different plate/release on my ski (my husband's Reflex which is the same size and age but has far fewer sets on it). Tightened the under-screws before putting in on my ski

4) put my foot in different ways-gently, without touching the ski, toes barely in, etc. (sometimes it pops out and sometimes it doesn't-when it doesn't pop out I ski but I'm scared)

5) tightened the release tension to the tightest level (this works, but the tension is too high for my comfort level re safety)

6) put it back on my husband's ski and then tried to put it on-front boot pops right out, even though the tension is set for a 200 lb man-and I'm 140 5'9"

 

So I have changed plates, releases, boots, ski, toe plate and method of putting it on. It's still popping out-again, after two years without fail. The last thing I can think of is that his plate/release is also failing, even though it hasn't been used. I have a new release on order.

 

Has anyone else encountered this? Any ideas?

 

 

 

 

[ral]

Question: In a normal release tension level, can you get the boot out of the binding without the release system opening (put the binding in, grab the full release unit and pull backwards)?

[BraceMaker]

I agree with RAL - my initial thought would be that the plate has bent allowing the horseshoe to be leaning forwards - on your husbands ski having a different sized shell than him would be my guess there.

[MattP]

Your heal block could be the issue. Is it sloping back? The release could be sliding off. Keep the shell and go to the OB4 Systems!

[lcarnes]

@ral I don't think I have tried what you are suggesting. What do you mean by grabbing the full release system?

 

So far, I have not been able get the binding out with any movement other than tripping the release on the platform. My husband and I use identical bindings, so it is happening with two different plates and releases that are the same size. It happens with his boot on my plate and my boot on his plate.

[mwetskier]

have you used any particular cleaner or solvent or lube around the boots or bindings that could have changed their surface properties? it might be easier to diagnose if you video this happening then study the video frame by frame to see the boot or release movements prior to release. video the entire set up to include front boot and back toe unit and use the highest resolution you can so the frame by frame study is clear enough to see detail.

[ral]

It is very easy to show but difficult to explain...

 

1) Engage the boot in the binding as usual.

 

2) Grab the Silvretta unit from behind, with your full hand, so that the little finger rests against the part of the Silvretta unit that holds the heel block, and that your thumb is over the top of the unit.

 

3) Pull backwards, trying to disengage the Silvretta from the boot but without having the spring release system opening.

 

Let us know what happens.

[BraceMaker]

To clarify:

 

His boot works OK on his plate but pops out on yours?

 

Your boot doesn't work on either plate?

 

Which configuration of both of your equipment works properly?

 

[eleeski]

Lisa used a Reflex style for a long time. Prerelease problems were usually associated with horseshoe issues. The FM style toe was a bit better. Make sure that the front horseshoe has big fender washers under it and that the plates aren't bent.

Perhaps the water warmed up and that can change the effective release setting a lot. Also, those springs can break to change the settings (yes, both could break at the same year age despite usage).

I used them on trick skis where I barely want to ever release. I always ran the Silveretta set to the max - even for Lisa's trick ski. Moving the Silveretta forward one hole will solve the prerelease problem but might mess up a lower release setting.

Good luck,

Eric

 

[Waternut]

Is your binding plate on any kind of shims or washers? Does it have any kind of padding underneath the plate? It could be flexing the plate and causing a spring loaded effect and when it releases that trips the system when you push on another area.

[Deanoski]

reflex boots after time get wear marks in the toe where sits in the horse shoe and makes the distance between the horse shoe and the heel block shorter I bet as ral and bracemarker said the heel release will pull off the back of the boot block. if so time to move the heel forward are you using the release blocks with the Teflon screw side to side adjusters? if so easy fix move the heel release forward one hole. then with the boot is in the system the release will not be able to be pulled off the heel block.

 

The reflex is a snow ski binding that needs forward pressure. not just release spring pressure.

 

good luck report back so we can all learn more.

 

Deano

[lcarnes]

Ok, here's the latest. I checked the horseshoe on both boots. Both are tight, vertical and anchored with the large washers. Have not tried to put the boot on and do what @‌ral said-no driver today.

 

On the possibility of wear marks in the toe, the problem has occurred with my old boot, my husband's boot and a brand new boot. I do feel like it's the loss of forward pressure that causes the boot to pop in the water. With the horseshoe ruled out, not sure why...

 

I should get two new release mechanisms tomorrow. Hoping that fixes it. And that I have a driver tomorrow-it's really hard to stare at glass calm water and have no one to ski with!

[lcarnes]

To answer @Waternut‌, the boot has always been mounted on the thin rubber pad that came with it. No other shims or washers. And the problem repeated on two different skis with two different but similar liners.

 

[BraceMaker]

I'm starting to believe that somehow simultaneously the release has worn to no longer catch, which is bizarre that they would both do so... together.

[Andre]

There's a missing part to this puzzle...?

[skosney]

Should one not be able to cause the front boot to release in the water while putting a fair amount of pressure on the back of the ski (like jamming your foot into a rear binding)? I bet there is a bit of twisting going on as well during that process.

 

I have been using a Reflex with a RTP for few weeks now, and I too have released it while kicking my rear foot back into the RTP. I just figured that was normal and I take a bit more care while doing so now. Thus far I have only one fall (blow out) that was release worthy and it operated perfectly.

[Deanoski]

Icarnes, did you put the boot into the binding close the release and then try to pull the release back off the boot block? do this with your foot not in the boot.

 

Sean we can check your set up on Saturday before you ski I have been using this system for 6 yrs now and have help many skier get it set up correctly.

 

Deano

[lcarnes]

@deanoski I'm not sure what you mean for me to try. I get that I should put the boot on the ski in the release without me being attached. Then I do what? Pull up? Pull backwards? Twist?

 

@skosney I have been in this system for 2+ years and at least 2000 passes on two different skis without the boot releasing in the water. I did use the "gentle method" for getting into the RTP in the water a couple of times, but I'm not comfortable doing that forever. Something has changed in the last two years, and I need to get it back for me to be comfortable.

[Deanoski]

I carnes put he boot into the binding and then pull back on the release to see if you can pull it off the boot block

[ral]

@Deanoski‌, we are anxiously waiting for that test...

[Deanoski]

not the best vid but show how to do the test.

[Deanoski]

vid will not upload

 

send me an e-mail And I will send it to any one that wants it

 

duren@us.head.com

 

[Jim Neely]

Lynn,

 

I don't use a rear toe plate but have found that with the white cuff Reflex that I can lean my front foot back far enough to cause the front binding to release. I use the r-style rear and almost always put both feet in on the platform. I have experienced what you are describing when trying to get my back foot in while in the water.

[lcarnes]

Yesterday I put the boot in the binding and did my best to get it out without actually tripping the release. No amount of twisting or pulling would release it. But then again, that's not much force coming from me!

 

@jim neely I have skied on it after a release in the water. It's a pain to have to get back on the boat to get the ski on. More importantly, my question is why did this problem start after two years and 2000 passes? Something has changed and that is worrisome to me.

 

[Jim Neely]

Lynn,

I suspect that what changed was the way you are putting your back foot in. That is, doing it in a way that causes you lean your front foot back. I may be all wrong though.

[ral]

@lcarnes, position is correct then. Can you take out the spring and see if there is anything strange on it?

[lcarnes]

@jim neely I wish that were the case. It was certainly what many people on the dock suggested the day it became clear that something was up. I tried every which way to get my back foot in without tripping it. The only way it doesn't trip is if my toes are barely in and I don't touch the ski whatsoever. In that configuration, my back foot isn't stable enough to ski well. Something had to have changed besides my "getting in" technique, since for the past two years, I have been able to push my foot in all the way. I even changed toe plates to see if that was it. Nope.

 

Really hoping that the new releases solve this. I've gone back to my Wiley's in the interim and now remember why I quit using it!

 

[lcarnes]

Got the new release. Put it on my ski, got in the water and did my old routine. Boot stayed attached to the ski. I didn't actually ski since I had no driver (and it was thundering). Hopefully I can give it a full test tomorrow.

 

So it seems the best explanation is that the releases simultaneously went bad. We decided that it's quite possible that being in the brackish water in Acapulco a year and a half ago might have contributed, even though we thoroughly washed the mechanisms at the time. Wear and tear is definitely not the explanation, as my husband has used his less that 25% of the times that I have used mine.

 

Next I'm going to take the old release apart and see if I can find what went bad. Hoping this episode is behind me!

[ral]

The spring can be replaced for just a few bucks...

[lcarnes]

The new release is working perfectly. Closing it is like the difference between closing the door on a new luxury car vs the old clunker. When I really examined my old release, it was rusty and clearly in need of replacing. Just for safety, and because I take my boot on and off every set, I'm going to replace it every year. It's a small price to pay to insure I keep skiing.