Running -39 This gives me hope

[ozski]

 

For those of us who are not perfect watching this can help you sleep at night. He certainly gets value out of his ski. Awesome skiing!

[Chef23]

Not sure it gives me hope. I know I can't hold on to the 1 ball he had.

[RichardDoane]

I thought I recognized that video, that was the first time I had ever used the Sanyo Xacti, Brent Graham was driving BTW

[ozski]

He would be great to watch from the boat!

[Texas6]

Awesome athlete, never realized his style resembles Degaspri a bit

[ForrestGump]

I love David Miller. Such a nice guy and awesome athlete. That said, there's only about 3 person in the world who can ski like that and get away with it.

[Chef23]

That doesn't give me any hope at all. I couldn't come close to holding on to the angle he generates particularly out of 1 ball.

[Razorskier1]

Amazing. Most notable to me is that he is always in position for the load and is rock solid in that position. Oftentimes when I get sloppy my shoulders are forward coming out of the ball, and when the line gets tight, I have to fight my way back to stacked. Dave is stacked from the moment he connects to the boat. Sweeeeeet!

[Than_Bogan]

I'm with @Chef23. People who run it ugly don't give me an ounce of hope -- I KNOW I can't do that. It's people who run it without much effort who give me hope -- MAYBE someday I could get my technique good enough to do that.

[andjules]

@Razorskier1 - that's funny, I see almost the opposite. You certainly have a point, he can't do what he does if he weren't in a strong position, but at the same time, I'd say that's the worst-looking stack of any top skier I'm familiar with. Other than his gate shot, it seems like his shoulders are ahead of his hips at most wake crossings. And he's pretty compressed (after all out discussion in other threads about aiming for straighter legs). And coming off the second wake in to his 2/4/6, there tends to be a instant where he looks like he's going to go out the front. That said, it's the kind of skiing I love to watch. 100% intensity, all heart. That guy must have the strongest core muscles, being able to pull like that, in that position, without losing it. So fun!

[Texas6]

Hard not to miss how long he pulls. Granted, he gets what he needs between the buoy and behind the boat, but he definitely pulls long. Maybe just a rough pass but he still grinds it out

[Edbrazil]

David Miller (CAN) is a good guy. First met him at the Abbotsford Tour stop, and most

recently at the late-season Goode event in September in Utah.

 

I expect that he will be a major contender at the 35+ Worlds in Florida this year.

[jimbrake]

@Texas6‌ - my thought, too. Especially going to one. @andjules - his shoulders leading his hips is one reason he runs it - he accelerates really well out of the turn and that is because he's leading with his COM. Looks sketchy, but it works. He does hang onto it for a long time.

 

The thing that stood out to me is how much angle that ski gets out of both turns but in particular is offside at 135. Is that an XT? Man that ski turns.

[Stevie Boy]

When you talk about hope, I had a run of bad luck with injuries, several operations and several years later, I still yearn to get back to somewhere near where I was, the goal I have set myself, is well within the capabilities, of most people on this forum, but my piers mock and pull faces when, I talk about acheiving that goal, is it time to throw in the towel, I still have dreams, but need support from others to maintain interest, I know it,s a tall ask, but it would mean so much to me, even if I acheived it just once. 60yrs old and still giving it a go.

[Chef23]

@Stevie Boy it is never time to throw in the towel. If your friends don't believe you can get where you want to go it is time to get new friends.

[dtm]

What I find most interesting about this pass is how he trusts that the line is going to pick him back up. He's loose from the line almost a third of the way back to centerline, but he doesn't panic and try to make a motion to get it back....he continues the turn and is strong enough to absorb the late connection. Don't think this is a technique you'd want to emulate, but definitely a great example of how to handle a loose line at the finish of a turn.

[RichardDoane]

I get to watch @DavidMiller quite a bit during the summer, he skis in Western Washington at most of the slalom tournaments, and is a perfect example of "never giving up" in the slalom course, or you're done for sure, he's my pick to win the Big Dawg this season

[Klundell]

It may not be perfect but he does a ton of things right. Most importantly his center of mass is always moving ahead of the ski in the direction he wants it to go. Sometimes this makes him look a bit out the front but it is also the reason he is getting so much acceleration from the buoy to the center of the wake. Us mortals make a mistake and get afraid of going out the front so we get behind the ski and then you are done.

[ozski]

What I see every time I look at this is regardless of his position on the ski is how much of his ski he's using and the angle that results.

[jimbrake]

@Klundell - don't be copyin' my posts, yo.

[Klundell]

@jimbrake‌ - apparently I should read the entire thread before I start posting. But great minds think alike right???

[fu_man]

@klundell for us mortals going OTF is the only way to go. Best entertainment value. A good OTF yard sale is at least as entertaining as watching someone run -35.

[jcamp]

One of the most amazing passes I've ever seen was Miller getting 5@39 at last year's Big Dawg finals under the lights. He had NO business even getting to two after a badd one ball, but he almost ran the thing. Was unbelievable to see him scrap it out that far.

[gator1]

@klundell, @jimbrake: I have yet to wrap my head around the "COM is always moving ahead of the ski" directive.

 

Does it mean progressively more weight is on the front foot as he approaches the wakes? On a lot of those pulls he looks like he's almost entirely on the front foot right behind the boat. How does he do that without going OTF? How do the rest of the immortals do that?

 

I think mortals have to stay back because the impact with the wake slows the ski and our body keeps going, thus moving our COM inadvertently forward, thus OTF. The staying back is safety margin.

 

Is the theory that he is so strong and quick that he can stand on the front foot without the deceleration from the impact with the wake moving his COM any farther forward?

[Lieutenant Dan]

He's got to have incredibly strong abs to be able to be bent over like he is yet not get pulled further over the front.

[ozski]

@richarddoane - What ski was he on? Not that it looks like it matters much.

[GOODESkier]

@richarddoane @OB @ozski @rico video was posted in March 2008, so guessing that was a 9800 or a 9900? Thinking Mid-Ride?

 

Dave is one of the BEST! I am a lucky guy to get to ski as often as I do with him, GREAT COACH, GREAT SKI TECHNICIAN, GREAT GUY, GREAT SKIER!

[ski6jones]

Anyone notice how far up on the boat he was in the pull out? He's WAY up there, between the rubber pad and the wind shield.

[klindy]

I saw the PP switch too and wondered how old the video was. Either way awesome skiing. It's the score the ultimately counts not the style!

[Stevie Boy]

Slightly off subject, but there was a recent debate regards straight legs, watching the video, I didn,t see much in the way of straight legs, if knee bend is good for Dave Miller, I guess knee bend is gonna be just fine with me.

Add on: Thanks @Chef23

[ForrestGump]

Again, there's only about 3 people in the world who can effectively ski like that.

[GOODESkier]

@ShaneH I am gonna try and be PERSON #4 ...............

[jimbrake]

@gator1 - if you can carry speed through the turn and ski back to the handle (as opposed to over-rotating/reaching for the handle/cranking the ski), you are already on your way to leading with your COM. Watch videos of great slalom skiers at the point right after the hook-up and most apply some load in the direction they intend to go which is forward not back. This is like pressing on the accelerator. What makes an OTF likely is when you over-rotate/crank the finish and load way out by the ball and resist away from the direction you intend to go. Now the boat (especially with ZO) is going to fling you out the front like David's rock in a sling. In addition to it being so clear in the Dave Miller video, check out boat videos of Greg Badal. You can really see it in his skiing, too. I see the forward drive in all great skiers, but some really stand out.

[gator1]

@jimbrake, thanks for the attempt to explain it to me. I get the "ski back to the handle" part. I don't get what "load in the direction they intend to go" means in terms of what physical movements are required to achieve that. If it is just putting more weight on the front foot, how do they keep from going OTF?

[Razorskier1]

@gator1 -- for me OTF happens at/after the wakes. I think @jimbrake is right. If I come out of the turn with the ski over-rotated, then I'll be leaned back and away from the direction of desired travel when the line comes tight. The "equal and opposite reaction" then occurs as the boat catapults me from back and away to forward and OTF. If, instead, I complete the turn balanced and moving in the direction of the ski I don't have that high level of resistance to start with, and it never develops. As a result, I hold my position despite having greater front foot weight. Probably doesn't sound intuitive, but that's what I feel.

[ral]

Weight in the front foot cannot be analized by itself. Actually, weight at the front foot is a wrong concept when under traction by the rope, where the correct concept would be force applied by the front foot.

 

OTF's depend on the amount of force applied by the front foot, the position of the COM relative to the rope force AND the COM trajectory. That last part is the reason why freeze framing the skier at the wake does not necessarily allow an OTF prediction.

[jimbrake]

@Razorskier1‌ - exactly. @gator1 - instead of the old turn, lean back in a super-stacked, resistive position, LOAD, hang on, get pulled apart after the wake, or worse - OTF, you feel low load, acceleration, and great angle with the ability to easily keep it all connected through the edge change. After a turn is completed, even if done well, the boat still wants to fling you across course, so help it do that. After you ski back to the handle assuming you are in a good strong, stacked, leveraged position, "drive" your COM in the direction you want to go. I've heard it described many, many ways. Mike Suyderhoud used to say "pretend you are trying to put your shoulder into a door". Marcus and Matt Brown told me the "standing on a motionless flatbed truck that is starting to go" analogy - you have to lean forward in the direction of travel to keep from falling back. I like to use the analogy of riding a skateboard or surfboard through a turn - without a handle and rope to keep you up, if you don't drive your COM in the direction of the turn you'll shoot the board out from under you (ow). As a snow skier you can probably relate to what happens if you don't move your COM down the hill through a turn (with gravity being the force instead of a boat's pull) - you get back-seated and the only thing that saves you is the back of your boots and the tails of your skis. Not good.

 

Where I think you are getting hung up is in the "what happens at the wake when I'm driving forward in the direction of travel". You won't "trip" on the wake. You will have developed such good angle with the ski and will be accelerating so well that the ski will move under you on a path that diverges from that of the handle. So much more detail to add here, but I'll save it for another time and thread.

 

I battle with this concept every single pass I take, but I know it works ("60% of the time it works every time"). If I just focus on vision and skiing back to the handle instead of pulling the handle in, rotating and resisting, the rest of this stuff just takes care of itself. YMMV.

[Ed_Johnson]

One of the reasons you do not see the OTF in the Video, is the fact that he has a LOW Center of Gravity associated with the forward loading COM...If a skier is more straight legged and leans front shoulder forward, coming into the wakes, they have a HIGH Center of Gravity, which can greatly lead to OTF's.

 

The key is proper loading of the COM in the direction of travel at the hookup...Think of it more like knocking down a door to get out of a room that's on fire...You wouldn't just hit the door with your shoulder, you would want to put your WHOLE body into it..Leading with COM is the same as knocking down the door with your COM, and very effective.

 

Keep in mind that you will need a forward leaning position at the apex, and the use of your COM leading, to come off the apex, to set this up properly...If you are leaning back at the apex, rotate the upper body, and pull in on the handle, I guarantee you will be leaned back at the hookup..This will make it impossible to shift COM in the direction of travel at hookup, since ZO will already be on you.

 

The secret is that "falling in" off the apex, with a leading COM, will allow you to get into the Forward Stacked position, without ZO knowing your there..Thus if COM is forward of the ski line at hookup, the applied force exerted from ZO will cause the ski to accelerate forward (not your body) and cast out, resulting in the Reverse C position. We all know how important that is to be wide and early at the shorter lines.

[gator1]

@Ed_Johnson,@ral, @jimbrake: I give up, thanks for trying. I've read/heard/attempted to implement that all before. Just like when I bust through a door, I go out the front if I try to weight/load/put force on the front foot. My CG is plenty low, so that is not it.

 

I was a WCS disciple for a couple of years, and this all worked great. Came back after the winter break 5 years ago, and nothing worked. Then got sick, then got hurt. Last year I was healthy, but still nothing worked. Working like a horse just to run 35.

 

I'm convinced this is the key, I've got to get more ski in the water by getting COM more forward. But, OTF. Maybe just too old now.

[Steven_Haines]

@Gator1‌, here is the best way that I can explain the center of mass quandary. if you've ever watched alpine ski racing, (Ted Ligety, Bode Miller) you'll notice how they are stacked in the turn. they have all their wait over top of the lower ski with ankle bent and hips to the inside and forward in the direction of travel. now if you try to get in that position on dry land you have to take your other leg and support yourself in front of you to keep from falling over but as we all know in motion sports it's the news yet to keep you from falling over over but as we all know in motion sports inertia keeps you from falling over. that's the feeling of having your center of mass headed in the direction of travel. how I try to achieve that on a water ski is 2 push my right hip towards one ball/ left hip towards 2 direction of trav2el. this helps you to get your weight centered over the top of your ski and also helps even the loAD on both arms as you're crossing the Wake. that's the best I can do to explain the feeling.

Steve

[RichardDoane]

I took that video in October 2006 before the Imperial tournament, can't remember whose Malibu that we were using, but I do remember that his score in the tournament the next day wasn't as good as in practice

[6balls]

Wow does he carry outbound direction after the wash on his inside edge.

[Ed_Johnson]

@gator1.......First of all, don't think about loading the front foot, thats a byproduct...Think strickly about where you are moving your COM, both off the apex and the hookup...If you were in the burning building trying to knock down the door, you would't be thinking about where your front foot is, you would be thinking about how much MASS you could hit the door with..Now just replace the door with the white water.

 

Also, "Danger"...DO NOT lock into the loaded position..The worst thought you can have is "Pulling Through the Wakes."...There is no pulling...Pulling equals OTF....Think momentary load. I call it a spike, like hitting the door...After you knocked the door down, you wouldn't keep leaning against it and going with it, you would run...Same here, strong forward COM, low CG load, ZO loads back at you, ski accelerates, relax knees, don't move upper body, ski goes forward and back at the same time, casting out into the Reverse C position.

 

 

[gator1]

Me, separated by a few years and a few trips to the surgeon. Maybe this shoulders open to the boat shit is not right answer? If I get more of the ski in the water now, I just go OTF. The one on the left was fun. The one on the right is just work. How do I get back to fun?

[jimbrake]

@gator1 - I feel, and can relate to your frustration. I've had to battle some injuries over the past few years. Feel good now and hopefully can get back to working on 38 more regularly this season. The pic on the left you look like you ARE driving your COM in the direction of travel. Looks good. I would guess you didn't go OTF on that pull. The pic on the right looks just a little less so. Hard to tell what other issues may be contributing without video. Are you battling ZO or feel dialed in with it?

[jimbrake]

@gator1 - forgot to say - that sure is a pretty spot you get to ski in. Lucky.

[gator1]

@Jimbrake:

 

Can't blame it on ZO. I'm a couple of buoys diff between the river PP and the lake ZO.

 

It is a gorgeous spot. I got lucky and found some great guys to ski with when I moved out here from the Midwest. Plus, we don't need a .410 in the boat to repulse water moccasin attacks. Moose, on the other hand......... Probably should have put pic in "pics that make you smile" thread......Note tasteful, understated "nautiques" sticker in hatchback window.

[Skoot1123]

@gator1 - I'm just surmmizing here, but in the second picture (one on the right) it appears that your ski angle (ie the bottom surface facing the back of the boat) is quite a bit higher. Could it be that you are pushing harder against the ski? (in essence pushing against the back of the boat) Just a thought......

 

I always try to think of it as a glide and slide to get moving in the direction I want to go.

[ral]

I see more hair and better tan in the first picture...

 

Do you get good professional coaching often? For me, when I start working instead of flowing, I know it is time to get some good coaching... When I ski well, it is effortless. When not, it is a fight. And, in my case, one of the symptoms of bad skiing is gettingcompressed after the buoy at 1-3-5.

 

[gator1]

skoot, I'm pushing as hard as I can in both pics. You are right, the angle of attack of the ski now sucks. In essence, I'm doing a very high drag side slide now....Don't know how to get it back in the water.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if the angle of the spray is an indicator of efficiency, just like the amount of spray off a snow ski. Gotta look at some more vids. For sure, Miller's spray comes off lower than most. Wonder about other immortals.

 

@ral; Yes, thank you. I am old. And bald. And pasty. And, coachless. Went to a clinic put on by a pro couple of years ago. Got nothing. Had an hour with Jack Travers 25 yrs ago. That was pretty good. Other than that, its all Uncle Butch and @sethro. If I can't figure it out by midsummer I'm gonna pack up and go somewhere to see a coach.