Straight Legs - a Clarification

[Horton]

@Klundell‌ show off! I can spot a Julie Parker photo a mile away. She makes every one look sexy.

[Klundell]

Busted! Well that and it was too damn cold to bend my legs.

[SkiJay]

In one of Gordon Rathbun's videos, Andy Mapple acknowledged that you can ski well compressed, but that his concern with a compressed skiing style is that sometimes we are late connecting after the ball. If you normally ski tall, you can compress, save the connection, and still make the cut. If you are already compressed out of the ball, you don't have that option.

[Horton]

@SkiJay‌ how old is that video? I believe "compressed" has largely been discredited. The idea was insightful but generally misunderstood and now best forgotten.

[gator1]

@jimbrake: Oh. Kidding. It may be, perhaps, just perhaps, I'm taking this a bit too seriously, eh?

 

I'll post some video once the ice goes out and we get a few passes under our belts. There is a large committee, chaired by the wife, that would predict my head cannot be fixed on any subject. But, I've never tried crowd sourced BOS head shrinking. If its more painful than just watching video of myself I may not survive. But, I'm game if you are!

[ral]

If we compare @Klundell‌ and @gator1‌, I guess it is clear who is skiing more efficiently, even though the more efficient skier is using a suit and the place looks cold... Also, It is obvious who out of the two has a PB of 1@41 off 36 MPH...

[SkiJay]

@Horton That Rathbun video is REALLY old. I've never believed that compressed skiing was good. I only shared that quote as yet another good reason to make whatever effort it takes to learn to ski tall.

[ToddL]

FWIW, I like the "straighten" out the back leg tip. I think there is more to it in practice though...

 

To explain this, I need to have the skier over-do something to make a point. Before straightening the back leg, the skier must first have a good bit front foot ankle bend (this is the over-doing part). Then, when the back leg is pushed straighter and everything else held still, the skiers whole body moves forward towards the ski tip. Also, the skier is leaning more forward and his/her shoulders are now forward as well (not fun, but just wait), and this is awkward and feels too far forward for the skier. Thus, the skier leans the shoulders back a bit until more balanced. And TaDa! The skier's center of mass has moved forward on the ski with the hips now leading and the shoulders are a little back of the hips.

 

As a result of the back leg straightening, a series of correcting actions occur resulting in the desired balance and stack. It's not just about the back leg. Rather, the back leg is the catalyst for the series of adjustments which achieve the final position.

 

Added Mar 29... Let me add some more to this: Skiers who struggle with upper body stack will benefit from this technique. Once a skier builds confidence and feel for upper body stack, they no longer need to think about or maintain this back leg concept. In other words, skiers who stack well in terms of hips to shoulders position can then do whatever they want with their legs. That's why there are many great skiers who's back legs are bent.

 

Straighter back leg is like bicycle training wheels - a temporary learning aid until necessary skills become permanent.

[XR6Hurricane]

A bit off topic but maybe not so much, as keeping the back leg straighter and the weight centered always feels to me like it's a recipe for getting hurt.

 

I understand the theory and concept of getting the weight centered, being stacked, having your hips forward, keep the weight 50/50, and all of those things. Yet, whenever I see a picture of Rossi, Regina, etc., what I actually SEE is a skier leaning BACK with the hips approximately over the rear foot and the shoulders and head way out over the tail of the ski, like they are trying to fall backwards off of it, yet managing to keep about half of the ski in the water. What everyone says and what I see when I watch don't seem to have much correlation.

 

That said, when I lean away from the boat AND back (trying to emulate them) are when I can cross the biggest towboat wakes and hardly feel them.

 

Maybe it is all of the bad habits I've picked up over the years from never having any professional instruction, but if I try to cross the wake centered instead of having at least a slight bias to the rear foot, I feel like it's going to land me in the ER on the first try.

 

Or is the whole "don't lean on the rear foot" thing a bit of a misleading statement?

 

??

[ToddL]

LOL, @OB!

 

The footnote on this concept is: if during your lean your handle is making contact with your thigh and your shoulders are not in front of your hips, then you can do whatever you want with your back leg.

[ToddL]

@XR6Hurricane. Think of a baseball player sliding into a base. Everything is and looks leaned back, right? But which leg has more pressure on it? The front leg has the majority of the force during the slide. Thus, if you have greater than 50% of your weight/pressure on your front foot, you can have your upper body leaned back without significant negative consequence to the ski' attitude in the water.

 

The reason for stack is to get more ski in the water and working for you efficiently while aligning the body to transfer the boat's force to the ski in a strong and stable position.

 

When I look at boat video of great skiers, to me they are stacked almost the entire time of the pass. Out of the buoy, though, their body is slightly leaning forward as a runner coming out of the starting blocks. However, as they reach the first wake they are lined up with the rope. Finally as the edge change, they are leaned back with the ski somewhat out in front of them, like sliding into a base. In the glide they adjust back to centered stance and move weight forward to drive the ski into the water. During all of this, there is pressure on the front foot. Less skilled skiers will see pics from the side or of the last moment of the lean and interpet that as leaning back, when in reality the skier is still standing 50% or more on their front foot and leaning away from the rope's pull, not back. Lean away is what is being seen in those pics.

 

Less experienced skiers who actually lean back typically end up standing more on their back leg. That is the never a desired stance. Consider this, when an amputee skier slalom skis, which foot is he or she standing on, the back or the front? We all need to stand on our front foot as the primary with the back leg secondary to our stance.

 

Back leg straighten is just a means to get a skier to move their whole center of mass onto the front foot. Once there, the should not be significantly supporting their weight on that back foot.

 

Drawing from another thread... maybe you bindings are too far forward causing you to have to be further back to be balanced. Maybe that is why when you try to stack you feel the ski is too deep with the water breaking dangerously too close to sending you out the front.

[BCM]

@ToddL‌ and @XR6Hurricane‌ - it is possible to be weighting the front foot while "leaning" back, take a look at DH snow skiers, their CG is often behind their boots, but they are driving the front of their skis. I am not saying that is the best way to ski, but it is possible.

 

Clarification - I didn't really intend to comment, interesting topic, but I don't have much to add, but I knocked something onto my keyboard while reaching for my coffee cup and it apparently pressed enter, leaving a comment. All I can do is edit it, is there a delete button? No coffee was lost during this accident...

[SkiJay]

I get where you're coming from @XR6Hurricane‌. If a skier gets tall and centered with an extended rear leg right off the ball then HOLDS that position into the second wake, an OTF is imminent. But contrary to what studying nice photos would have many believe, the cut isn't a static pose. It's a dynamic move where the core has to actively accelerate the hips and ski across the course more quickly than the shoulders.

 

At the apex of one-ball, the shoulders are closer to the boat than the hips and ski. At the apex of two-ball on the other side of the lake, the shoulders are again closer to the boat than the hips and ski. For this to occur, the hips and ski have to travel further than the shoulders in the same amount of time. This also means the hips have to be accelerated past the shoulders at some point. Good skiers accomplish this in one fluid motion with the hips passing the shoulders right behind the boat. When the hips have more momentum into the wakes than the shoulders, there will be no sensation of being exposed to an OTF.

 

If, on the other hand, the skier freezes in what might be a picture-perfect, tall, centered stack approaching the first wake and then rides that static position through the wakes, it will generate way too much tip pressure at the second wake leading to a late edge change/pulling long or worse. Though it can work to a point, it is NOT ideal to simply shift more weight onto the back leg then ride that static pose through the wakes. The best cure is to use core strength to accelerate the hips so they are under or ahead of the shoulders and moving faster than the shoulders behind the boat.

[gator1]

@ob; please don't run the mod when people are around to see you. I had no idea you were such a crap skier.

[Horton]

O lord....

 

@ToddL Nope you do not get it. I have had great success telling skiers to simply be "ski taller" or "try to have straighter legs" or "Try to do a leg press from the wakes to the ball" or "Feel the power of the boat through both feet". There is no need to make it more complicated. Stop over thinking it. (yes if a skier is a robot and manages to only straighten one joint with all other joints fixed it could go bad but humans to not do things like that.)

 

Also => when I feel narrow or that I am working too hard => I go back to the original concept. So for me your comment that once your upper body is good this does not apply is false.

 

@OB knucklehead go away. At least in that photo your stack is money. This topic is not for you. You are beyond it.

 

@XR6Hurricane‌ Yes we are all back and frankly very few skiers ever get to a true 50/50 before the center line. Maybe the terminology we are using is bad. If you look at this image of @OB‌ that is pretty darn good. His back leg is not LITERALLY straight but it is straight enough to bring his pelvis to up to the handle.

 

 

 

Here is a shot of me. This is about as good as I will ever do. A pro skier might drive their front knee forward to get farther forward but that is beyond me.

 

Here is me at the ball. Here I could use some more front knee bend and less back knee bend

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/2013/QuestMay12SkiWest-0915-2.jpg

 

One more sample if my skiing. Good enough to run 38 on a good day but not perfect by any measure.

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/2013/Quest.jpghttp://www.ballofspray.com/images/2013/Quest.jpg

 

[Horton]

While I am at it...

 

In this shot I need to stand up a bit. I think this is too compressed

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/BestOf.jpg

 

Off side pull is even harder to get right. See where my back knee is? Not good. I think the cause has to do with the way I finish the turn. I hope to fix that this year

http://www.ballofspray.com/images/stories/IMG_1682.JPG

 

 

[Horton]

Errr one last thing.... I am sort of waiting for some pro or some skier who legitimately runs more balls than I do to totally shoot this whole thing down and tell me I am smoking crack. @chrisrossi‌ @matthewbrown‌ @MarcusBrown‌ @adamhcaldwell‌ (this I could regret) @AdamCord‌ @Sethski‌ @Bruce_Butterfield‌ (be nice Bruce - I know you think I am wacky) @bishop8950 @MrJones @schroed

[skibug]

I can't take it anymore.....

[Drago]

I think you are all whacked on the junk. I thought that last summer when you started this "straight back leg " thing.

[matthewbrown]

@horton you are smoking crack..if I hear back leg straighter one more time I'm going to drive down to scenic Bakersfield and slap your goggles off

[Horton]

Hmmm

[ToddL]

Looking at all the pics, stacked = front knee is slightly leading the lean away hip (the right hip when going through the gates toward 1ball) which is slightly leading the head. If the head is forward of the hip you are not stacked. If the head is forward of the front knee have someone filming cause a wipe out is coming....

[gator1]

@Horton‌ : panda retraction?

[Steven_Haines]

if I have a straight leg at the end of the turn my s2 will not finish the turn so being more compressed is the only way I can make that thing work for me. or maybe I'm pushing and that's a whole nother story.

[SkiJay]

Dare I go back to my original comment: "The straight rear leg thing is more of a pre-turn concept."

 

Matt cutting off-side:

 

Matt in the off-side pre-turn:

 

Even Chris Parrish, who skis very tall, doesn't cut into the wakes with a straight rear leg or the trailing knee tucked in behind the front knee:

 

And Terry Winter, who skis very compressed, has a long rear leg in the pre-turn:

[Cam]

Got to agree with @horton that this is a tool to be used for skiers at my level who haven't got their stack right yet and not for advanced skiers who are well balanced on their ski, I was told to do this years ago by a UK coach so it is not just a Horton concept.

[Horton]

So the reason I am so passionate about this concept of from coaching skiers with far less that optimal body position. Back in the day when I taught ski school all summer every summer we told students to get their hips up. All day every day “Get your hips up”. I now believe that is terrible coaching. How the hell do you literally do that? Pinch your butt cheeks together? Really?

 

If you run 35 off or beyond this is most likely not a concept for you. I still think about doing a leg press into the wakes but maybe I a freak. If your stack sucks, I still say this is an idea you may want to think about. It would not surprise me at all if you took the idea & totally rephrased it in your own mind.

 

The bottom line is you cannot move your pelvis forward without moving one or both ankles and one or both knees. Take it for it is worth. If you think it is freaking blasphemy consider it a thought experiment.

 

 

[matthewbrown]

The pictures of Parrish and I show us compressed and our center of mass too far back. If hips were higher and shifted more over the ski, acceleration would be better as would the ability to hold direction. Consequently, our back legs would probably be straighter. This is all @horton is saying. You can show pictures of Rossi, Parrish and others who can run 41 skiing like this all day long. But, they are always trying to improve their body position. There is an optimal position, it's just that not all great skiers hit that sweet spot all the time.....except probably Nate, which is why he is who he is.

 

In the picture, the position of my hips and knees in the pre-turn are great, but, there is no reason to change that centered position by sitting back, as I slide through the turn and start my pull. Whatever you have to do to tell yourself to keep that balanced position is all that matters---keep hips high, clinch butt cheeks, hips stiff, straight back leg, stay open, front ankle bend, keep the ski tip behind me for longer....find what works for you, but the end result will always be the one and only optimal biomechanical position.

[matthewbrown]

another pic at same part in course, hips are higher and consequently more centered with slightly straighter back knee. if hips were even higher, then shoulders could be more open and weight distribution would then be ideal.

[eleeski]

@Horton Put a heel lift under your back foot and you can get your hips up without doing weird things with your back leg.

 

Seriously, whatever gives you the best balance will make you ski best.

 

Eric

[JJVDMZN]

@Horton, I tried your straighter back leg this weekend, I'm skiing at 46km/h (28mph) and at 18m, and I can say for me it works. Before I used to ski with no weight on my back foot and my backside would still be out there. With the straighter back leg I feel a 50/50 weight distribution, definitely more hips forward and I'm crossing the wake with more speed and confidence.

 

Note that I have only started skiing the course in November last year, so as a beginner I think Horton's advice can help.

[Klundell]

Is this too compressed?

[ral]

@Klundell‌, I think the helmet is a good option for that technique...

[wtrskior]

Horton has been very clear that this is for those who aren't in a good body position. One of the things that has helped my skiing immensely has been to get into that good stacked position while I'm being pulled behind the boat - BEFORE and AFTER the gates. By straightening the back leg it really puts the weight right up over my front foot in my optimal stacked position. This creates muscle memory and translates through the course when you can't think about things like back leg straight (and I never would).

 

if you are having trouble at longer lines, seriously do yourself a favor and try this when you are preparing to pull out for the gates and in your glide - this is the best time to do it IMO.

 

 

[Steven_Haines]

@Klundell, no that looks perfect! very little wetted surface on your ski. it looks like you're going to jet across the wake and give yourself plenty of time for the next buoy

[SkiJay]

Hilarious pic @Klundell‌! You made my morning.

. . . followed by taking out the boat windshield with the handle-pop?

. . . followed by moving the bindings forward one hole? =)

[Klundell]

@SkiJay I personally think the follow up picture is funnier. I've posted these here before but they are good enough to get a repost. The best part is this was at regionals... Oops! This was my position pulling to the three ball. I made it to five and then ate crap.