Straight Legs - a Clarification

[Horton]

How you invasion moving your center of mass is perhaps different for every skier. I firmly believe saying things like “Get your hips up” is pointless crap coaching. (I say so because I was once totally guilty. Pelvic thrust my ass )

 

How do you get your hips up? Try to do without straightening your back leg. If you really try hard (on dry land) you can get from a broken stack to a pro skier stack without straightening your back leg but in doing so you have gone from simulating a beginner skier to Terry Winter in one move. Possible but ridiculous.

 

Most skiers who do not run 35 off and beyond ski with their hips further back than is ideal. For these skiers simply extending both legs moves their pelvis up and forward. This is not a yoga move. It is extremely simple bio-mechanics. I do not advocate locked knees. I promote the idea that straighter legs are a first step to a better stack.

 

The simple fact is that if your back knee is bent more than your front knee, your hips will be behind you and chances are your shoulders are forward to compensate. If your front knee is bent more than your back knee your hips are very forward. (this is awesome but few skiers can actually do it)

 

Some of the very best skiers in the world bend their front ankle forward to draw their center of mass further forward. These skiers also drive their front knee forward. (Terry Winter) This is perhaps optimal but is a totally unpractical concept to a skier who does not already have their hips at least centered. To me this is a very advanced concept and a waste of time for most skiers. Skier have to learn a basic stack first.

 

In my option this is the foundation of stack. It should be noted that there are a number of other factors that make it harder or easier to get and stay stacked but one thing at time.

 

(I am really talking about from the ball to the wakes but the mechanics are the same from the wakes to the ball)

[ozski]

How do you feel about telling skiers to keep their chest up? Very hard to keep your chest up with your hips "back" ? Photo attached shows my back leg is pretty bent and my stack is not great...

[Horton]

@ozski‌ that stack is not textbook perfect but you are leaving off side so there are a number of additional things that can lead to this. It does not look bad. You are in a strong position.

 

I would need to see more of your skiing to really say much, I would challenge you to try to extend both legs more but you look good enough that you may need a more technical approach.

 

"Chest Up" if thinking about it that way works for you - do it.

 

But bringing your shoulders back does not bring your hips forward. On shore, get is a crap stack and then bring your shoulders back/chest up. For most skiers that will mean falling backwards.

 

 

[ozski]

@Horton - Much the same out of 1 - 3 but I tend to load earlier and come off edge sooner than I probably should @ -28 anyway. I just can't get my head around straighter legs so I will have to find another way. I've watched guys run -39 that don't look perfectly stacked behind the boat but as you commented not perfect but in a strong position. What I'm working with now gets me deep into -35 most days. Thank you for the feedback.

[ForrestGump]

This thread brings up a good topic. And @ozski, I'm NOT picking on you by any means here. You just happened to make a comment that needs to be brought up, I believe. I hear people say "I can't wrap my head around... x". Or "I can't get..... x". And then they follow it up with "But so and so runs 39 and he's not perfect." I've gotten into the sports psychology as well as the physiology and I've gotta say, this is BS and an easy way out. The fact of the matter is, people can wrap their heads around a mechanic. They either choose not too, because it's harder. Or they try it and don't give it time to sink in. You have to make a conscious effort and commitment to try something again and again and again. And it might be a step back temporarily. But trying to straighten ones legs and align the hips better(because better hip alignment also comes with straighter legs) isn't going to be accomplished in one set. Or two sets. How about 21 sets? That's a start for any mechanics change.

 

For the record, so and so(pick any so and so) runs 39 1/2 off because he does a LOT of things better than the rest of us. There may be something there that isn't perfect. But a lot of what they do is perfect. Now, this doesn't apply to David Miller because he's just a freak. lol

[dchristman]

@horton - I think your description is going to be the single most important thing I have read all winter and is going to be responsible for getting me to the next level. Not that I intend to ski with straight legs. In all my years of skiing no one ever told me "I do not advocate locked knees". The dynamics of it is clear to me now. I always moved my rear binder as far forward as I could to get my toes to the rear of the front binding because it's a more comfortable position to get knees locked. When I got a Monza in 2006 I didn't understand why it was recommended that the rear binding be at a particular distance from the tail when it put my feet so uncomfortably far apart. I see know why some skiers prefer an RTP because they have to be able to lift the rear heel - they feel the need to get their knees locked. If you separate your knees, it's easy to keep both feet flat AND get in a balanced, stacked position.

[Skoot1123]

I can attest to the "straight leg" method. It works. The key though is that your knees AREN'T LOCKED. When we think we have "STRAIGHT" legs - watch the video - you won't have straight legs. Many times where we think we are isn't where we ACTUALLY are (position/stacked wise) - video doesn't lie and so that is one of the benefits of taking video in order to understand what we need to fix.

 

Many times for me if I am struggling at a pass or just not "skiing well" I'll just tell myself to straighten my back leg. I more often than not run the next pass.

[gator1]

@ShaneH: I was with you all the way up till your Miller comment.

 

I was cleaning out a stack of magazines, and came across a bunch of old ski mags..Started reading the improvement articles, and was struck by the vast contradictions in recommended form as compared to today's understanding of what is "right", accompanied by photo sequences of studs of the day supposedly doing what was "right".

 

Pretty frustrating to think about all the hours I spent trying to emulate the "right" way which is now considered the wrong way.

 

Knowing what I know now, I can look at the old photos and see that Bob or Kris were not doing what the accepted wisdom said they were doing.

 

Meanwhile, there are two types of facts in higher mathematics. One is the kind that has been proved, and the other is the kind that has yet to be DISproved. All it takes is some really smart bastard to come along and show one exception to the latter type of fact, and the fact becomes a falsehood.

 

We have a bunch of theories today describing the critical aspects required to run 41. And yet, we have Dave Miller, the oil patch worker who just switched to AM, and to a lesser but just as important extent, Nate. They disprove those theories. Therefore, the math guys would say: theories are wrong.

 

To me, writing them off as freaks is the same as saying I can't get my head around something.

 

To me, figuring out what they are doing is like linking quantumm mechanics to relativity. Until we do, we don't know for sure that our theories are right

 

 

[ForrestGump]

To me, I wouldn't put Nate into that category with David Miller. Nate is technically the best skier out there. But he doesn't do anything out of the ordinary. He's incredibly stacked, uses both ankles and knees equally, and is always perfectly centered over the ski. And it shows in his scores. David Miller just perseveres due to catlike agility and incredible strength. 99.9% of us do not have the ability to even learn to ski like that.

[dtm8119]

guys...it can't be that tough, just try to duplicate this picture from @chrisrossi‌ and you're good! :)

 

http://instagram.com/p/mDLcvVv16E/

[Drago]

...but his back leg isn't straight.!

[gator1]

With their inhuman athletic abilities, just think how good Jeff Rogers and Dave Miller would be if they learned to ski right.

 

I can't see where Nate is conventionally "stacked" on his strong side. Looks like his ass is way behind his shoulders. I can definitely see where he is stacked on his weak side. I can't see where Nate is practicing conventional "handle control", or keeping a "tight line". I've read the quotes from Nate where he debunks the recently fashionable "light on the line" preachings.

 

He sure as hell is on the center of the ski, though.

 

See Rossi photo above: front ankle less than 90 degrees, front knee bent about 30 degrees, rear knee about 110 degrees. Just think how good he'd be if he'd only get that back knee straighter.

 

With so many examples that disprove the current maxims, I, who was fooled once with "hips up, rotate the shoulders towards the wake" in the 80's, am equally dubious of many of today's fashionable absolutes in ski technique dogma.

 

I don't believe we have yet captured the essence of what accomplishes 41 off. Because what we say is required to do it is disproved by those who actually do it.

 

Maybe, instead of cat like reflexes, strength, and do or die attitude, there is something in what these outliers are doing that points to the essence of what makes 41 off possible.

[SkiJay]

You'll have a hard time finding a picture of a pro with a bone-straight rear leg, especially in the cut. The straight rear leg thing is more of a pre-turn and turn concept. Plus, it's more of a "feels like" move. The more it feels like you're straightening your rear leg in order to get into a tall, stacked, hips-open position over your front foot, the better—even if you can't quite get there . . . yet.

 

 

[gator1]

@skijay I completely agree that almost all data shows getting the knees straighter in the turn and preturn is good. Plus, my tests over last year showed it works for me.

 

However, the statement made by Horton in the opener of this post: "The simple fact is that if your back knee is bent more than your front knee, your hips will be behind you......." is clearly disproved by the picture of Rossi. Unless, I guess, we want to tell Rossi to quit dragging his ass.

[ral]

@SkiJay‌, I find difficult to concentrate enough to see or visualize anything related to ski technique in your second pic...

[jimbrake]

@skijay - Exactly. The picture of Rossi is about as close as you're going to get to conveying the concept of a "straight" back leg. That is the only time in the course anyone comes close to the idea. It's a thought, it's a feel.

[Horton]

@SkiJay‌ we agree

[Horton]

Ok @gator1‌ if Rossi's back knee bends more in the photo where would his hip go? Forward?

[Horton]

One additional clarification: This is a concept I use for skiers who do not have a good stack. If you are stacked and have good leverage you do not need to hear this.

[andjules]

This idea grabbed my imagination last year when @Horton‌ brought it up and helped me clean up my stack. Perhaps it's my imagination, but it felt like the biggest improvement came from being 'stiffer' through the wakes (my pre-wake stack wasn't that bad, but I'd crush my knees through the wakes—[felt like] giving tons of power back to the boat— until I started focusing on the back leg).

 

Interestingly @SkiJay‌ - you said it is "more of a pre-turn and turn concept" (with pics as proof), but I focus on straighter legs though the pull/wakes and begin to focus on a flexed front ankle into the preturn. Perhaps it's the (retired) trick skier in me.

 

Anyhow, for all the ribbing he gets, I want to say thanks @Horton - I believe this idea played a big part in my score moving up 6.5 balls last summer in fewer than 20 sets in the course.

[Stevie Boy]

I am interested in this thread, I, m getting straight legs, but in the past, I have been battered with soft knees "show me even softer knees" now confused it, s hard to have straight legs and soft knees ?

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy‌ to me soft knees is a 1980s concept. If it works, whatever. In the end you need your center over your feet.

[gator1]

@horton. Yes. Forward.

[Horton]

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

[ForrestGump]

@Stevie Boy There's a difference between straight legs and LOCKED knees. That's likely where the confusion comes from.

 

@andjules Sometime, try squeezing your butt cheeks together in the preturn and report back what you feel moving out to the buoy. It drives your core mass up and over the ski with very little movement of the body. It will also bring you back in line if you've let your hips drag back during the cross course movement behind the boat.

[Horton]

@ShaneH‌ I hear you on the butt cheek thing but I don't relate at all.

 

I think you are correct about some of the misunderstanding. I "try" to have straight legs. In reality I am not close to locked out and would not want to be. For skiers who suffer with bad stack trying to be straight is a big first step.

[gator1]

@horton. Do his hips need to go forward?

[gator1]

@horton. There s the problem. If the galactic leader tells me "straight leg" my effing leg WILL be straight as I'm trying the tip. And you'll get me hurt.

 

If you say "a few less degrees bend in the rear relative to front" then we're on the same page.

 

When you say "the simple fact......" When it's not a fact , well then we're gonna disagree.

[Horton]

@gator1‌ if you are saying that the concept lacks nuance I would agree. For most of the skiers I work with it works really well. Other wise I feel like ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Stevie Boy]

So Guy's, it comes down to getting centered on the ski, anyway you want to do it, just get centered, Correct ?

[wtrskior]

I have used this concept and it works.

 

Jodi Fisher had me come way forward on my ski when i was gliding to get better balance, I went from hardly running 28 and never 32, to nailing 28 and hitting 32, and even deep 35 in less than a season. All i really have to do now is straighten out my back leg and have my chest up before I pull out and it sets up my passes much more consistently and my skiing is just more balanced in general.

 

you can not straighten the back leg completely or you will be hunched over the front of the ski & possibly in the drink.

[Horton]

@Stevie Boy‌ roughly yes

[gator1]

@Horton: A dislike, a panda, and a Python, all in one day. Does this count as a PB for me, or were these only practice rounds?

 

I'm sure, if you were working with me, first time you said "get your back leg straight, you are dragging your ass", and I did it and went hammering ribs first into the foam on the other side of the wake while gatormod saved me yet again, once we got the binding back on the ski, you'd say, "ok, you literal dumba$$ engineer, I meant get your back leg a little straighter in relation to your front leg". Unfortunately, you weren't here. And, I can, and do, defeat the tip.

 

The idea doesn't lack nuance. The written word, for me, wasn't saying anywhere near what you meant. The explanation lacked clarity.

 

@Stevie Boy: Although I think "get centered" is part of it, I don't think it is a particularly useful tip. I think "do whatever it takes to get the TAIL of the ski as shallow as you can" is the critical variable. Video yourself. Anything that gets the ski more parallel to the surface of the water in your hardest lean is good. Anything that points the ski at the sky is bad.

[Horton]

PB? World Record!

[ForrestGump]

@gator1 What if we said a "straighter" leg? Instead of straight?

 

ahhhh never mind, I just saw that's what you said.

[gator1]

@ShaneH: Look at this poor bastard grunting out a 35. Wish he'd just straighten his back leg a little bit.

[ozski]

@gator1 As Horton said at the top of the thread - strong position. Not text book but how many of us are text book...

[gator1]

@ozski: We both have to get the gdam front half of the ski in the water. Back in the day, the water broke way in front of my front foot. I can't figure out how to get back to that.

[otisg]

The third word of Our GREAT Leader's initial statement has me flummoxed. - Invasion --

As in - Pandemonium ensues as the hybrids continue their roundup of the humans during the Invasion -- As the hurricane begins to hit ...

Too many horror flicks, I fear.

Respectfully, I think that our fearless leader means - envision.

Seriously, I think that the great danger of "getting your hips up" is counter-rotating the hips up to meet the handle.

This is in the wrong direction - clockwise in the Rossi picture - This actually flattens the ski and reduces the pressure and therefore acceleration & speed of the cut. It also means that one has to unwind and counter-rotate just as much in the other direction for the next turn.

Counter-rotation of the upper body is possible (helpful for increased reach & using your core to facilitate the ski's rotation around the buoy) in Slalom water skiing because the course is uniform & predictable.

It is never trained for in Alpine Slalom skiing for the opposite reason - the next turn is not necessarily (almost never) uniform in the other direction.

Hips square to the centerline of the ski(s) -working the ankles & knees is usually fastest and best because it is the most stable and powerful.

 

[jimbrake]

@gator1 - umm, move your bindings forward. Duh.

[Sethro]

I like that picture @gator1. I can hear your mom now, all smiles, as she says "Looked great out there son."

 

Keeping my back leg straight, or straighter, is something I haven't concentrated on before but I'll see if I can utilize it.

 

Many of your other tips you've shared with me from the boat have done similar things towards keeping the hips up. I really think if someone can find the tip that works for him/her that is the key...whether it's elbows to the vest, shoulders back, hips up, reach high, etc. etc. etc.

[crashman]

@SkiJay‌ I like your point. I got some really good coaching today that made me realize that I was focusing on the proper "what" but not the proper "when"

[gator1]

@jimbrake. I dunno about that. I lost 2 passes over one winter with no equipment mods. Something went to hell in my head, not my ski.

[Gloersen]

informative thread - gist being that when a proper stack is lacking and the skier is riding the tail, almost always the rear knee & ankle are over flexed, the front ankle & knee over extended, with the rear knee way ahead of the front knee. Typically most notable through the centerline & 2nd wake.

 

imo...

 

Proper stack starts with getting in a zone when first up on the ski waiting to edge-out. Riding the tail typically "starts" before the edge-out. I personally like to "visualize" riding a skateboard at time of edge-out, through the apex, and during the turn-in. This helps keep me balanced on the ball of the front foot (can't turn a skateboard by stomping on the tail).

 

Additionally the back knee is touching just above the backside of my front knee, pretty much at all times when changing direction and accelerating. Preventing the back knee from flexing ahead of the front knee enhances balance and avoids riding the tail....along with a couple of dozen other things...

[ral]

@gator1, a couple of comments about your pic. Someone running 35 does some things right for sure. Some things are wrong in that position, and yes, if that skier (do not know if it is you) straightens the back leg and nothing else, he will end up with a nasty OTF. Although on a strong position, I see difficult to prevent being further compressed at the wake with that leg bend.

 

Now, I would argue that the in pic below, onside as well, the skier has a bunch of things right and very few wrong. Including but not limited to straighter legs, better positioned COM, amount of ski in the water, etc...

 

[Horton]

@Ral that is EXACTLY what I advocate. Perhaps you are more eloquent in your explanation.

[ForrestGump]

@Gator1 , That picture of Willie is very applicable to the conversation because he's always been known as a skier with a lot of knee bend. But in comparison to you, he's got half the knee bend that you do. if you did nothing but get your body 6 inches taller with both legs you'd cure the tip up attitude you mention without sending you head first into the wake.

[jimbrake]

@Gator1 - I was kidding. That was a nod to another thread where it was made abundantly clear that you don't move your bindings forward to resolve a weight on the back leg issue.

 

Post some video if you have any. Maybe we can fix your head.

[gator1]

@ral: That's me. My head agrees with everything you said. My body continues to disagree. Stupid body.

 

@ShaneH, @Horton: I agree. I should have just started with the picture, but a) its a pretty embarrassing pic, and b) I would have never set the record for single thread negative reinforcement. DislikePandaPython. Should be an award for that.

 

 

[Klundell]

I've always been a fan of telling people to straighten their legs and stand taller on the ski. I've never noticed how straight my back leg is but this picture tells the story.