Step 2 - the turn in?

[Deep11]

"Keeping the line tight on pull out" thread looks like there may be a consensus on this -

Tight line and wide as, with handle on right hip before turn in.

 

So...

What are the thoughts on the next bit - the "turn in?"

I had been working on the "slow and late load" but having had the opportunity to chat to Andy and Will it seems they approach it with "fast and load early".

Rather than just thinking of the various ways of doing this (which just from the above is goIng to get confusing really quickly) I'm wondering if seeing what you guys think we are actually trying to achieve will create more of a consensus for us all to work towards?

I'm also aware that the same coach may give the opposite advice to different skiers depending on their level and the changes they want to make, so saying "how you do it" may actually be counterproductive unless the guy reading it just happens to ski the same way you do.

 

Kevin

 

(Just love the tech talk!)

[Stevie Boy]

I go with the Fast, but question the load, the best scenario, has got to be turning in, matching the speed of the boat, so the differential between the skier and boat is mimminal, then Zero Off will pick you up nice and smooth, giving you control.

That's my analogy, but I am not a Pro like Will or Andy, so feel free to put me right.

[SQuartly]

I go with slow. I find being right foot forward taking a mellow turn and thinking about progressively building speed helps me control my approach to one. However there are obviously benefits to loading early but personally I find it difficult. I think as a rule of thumb for longer line skiers taking a aggressive approach to the gate could do more harm than good….just my opinion though.

 

[Razorskier1]

Last fall skiing with AM and we spent time on this subject. I had historically turned in easy and then built speed and load more progressively. This always felt "safe" to me. Andy felt this meant that I was not actually getting picked up by the boat until I was at the whitewash, and then it naturally caused me to pull too long across the wakes. He suggested I get higher on the boat, and make a quicker connection to the handle so that I was building speed earlier and releasing to my outbound glide earlier. It made a huge difference in how early I was at the 1 ball. Then we worked on being a bit quicker at one, and viola, I was early to 2, and early all the way down the course.

 

This is consistent with what I learned from Chet. He focuses a lot on using the space between wide and the wake to create all of your speed. His logic is sound. When you are wide on the boat and you turn your ski cross course, ZO only has indirect pull on you, allowing you to get into position and create speed without dramatic load. As you approach the center, ZO has direct pull against you and you create huge load. So . . . if you progress in like I used to do, you will not generate speed early, you generate huge load behind the boat, you get unloaded narrow and fast, and the course becomes more difficult. Conversely, if you create your speed and angle early, you generate more speed and less load, you control your release point and balance on the ski, maintain a tight outbound path, and the course becomes easy.

[SQuartly]

Taking the load and generating speed early to create "space" before the ball makes allot of sense. Do you think this is a technique best suited to shorter lines though? I imagine skiers on longer lines run the rest of over-loading too early and having to let off before the wakes.

[SQuartly]

*risk

[A_B]

@SQuartly‌ - you can edit your posts if you make typos. I edit almost every post I make on my iphone or ipad. Just click on the little flowerly looking icon to the far right of your user id on your post.

 

Regarding your question about longer line, I think the main problem for beginning skiers is that they stand up behind the boat and flat ski, which results in getting pulled down the lake, opposed to keeping the ski on a cutting edge outward at the wakes. Loading earlier works at any length as long as you stay connected to the handle (handle at hip) shoulders leaning away with ski on edge, at least until you get on the other side of the wakes, riding your momentum out to the other side.

[Horton]

@ab that flowerly looking icon is a gear

[Horton]

@deep11 all I know is that the more water speed at the turn in the better.

[A_B]

I will be the black sheep here and say there is such a thing as too much speed at turn in, so don't take it that you can blast out there and turn in for the gates... It has never worked for me.

 

I am too fast normally a result of farting around and not pulling out soon enough, or a tail wind not accounted for, etc... I can be too slow or too fast, but there is a lot of middle ground that allows me to make a controlled turn in. You want to be wide and with enough speed to not get sucked back in to the wakes, and allow you to stay in good position to turn in with control, but not so fast that you have to 'throw it all down' turn and get pulled out of position.

[SQuartly]

Interesting. Thanks guys.

[Horton]

@AB let me restate. you want as much water speed as you can control

 

Any speed you do not have when you turn in => you have to generate.

The more speed you have to generate the harder you have to work. The harder you have to work more more other things are going to go bad.

[ForrestGump]

The problem we all have is that we want to turn in based purely on position in relation to the gates or where the boat is to the gates or something like that. But in order to figure out how to turn in with the correct speed, you have to be willing to turn in purely when you have reached the correct speed without regard to the gates. And then move your pull out point or intensity going out so that when you do turn in with the correct speed and position, you go through the gates. That is hard to get through your mind because it's going to take missing a lot of gates.

[A_B]

Amen. There is no cookbook answer that fits everyone. Where you start, how hard you pull out, one hand or two, edge or flat, body balance on feet, fin adjustment, wing angle, binding placement, ski shape, etc. etc., all impact the gate setup from one skier to another. Trial and error is really needed, but the concept of being wide and high on the boat while carrying controllable speed is the goal, at all line lengths.

[Chef23]

Jack Travers had me loading earlier last summer. I had been trying to follow the load later and easier through the wakes and Jack said that my efforts to do that were causing my max speed to be after the second wake instead of at the first wake.

 

Making that change helped my one ball at -35 a ton and got me through my first (and only) -35. I was running 4 and 5 at -35 much more often last year instead of being stuck at. 2 or 3.

[matthewbrown]

@horton said it right, the more speed in the turn the better, which is done by leaving the ski behind you momentarily as you lead toward the wakes with your body. This is the end result you are looking for. However you set it up, is irrelevant. Although, hard to do this when the ski is already between you and the boat because you pulled out too wide and early.

[ForrestGump]

I've been struggling to find the way to describe it, @matthewbrown . It's been feeling to me like I'm dragging my toes as I move in. I know when I feel that, it's going to start out well.

[Deep11]

Really like @Razorskier1 explanation of why taking load from wide works, hadn't thought of that before. Simplicity of @horton is great - more speed = less to generate.

Reason I started this thread is that I see some skiers with us having great width (and by definition speed) yet they are narrow at one, and it's not due to lack of commitment or giving it up at the wakes.

What I'm thinking is that once wide the essence of the turn in is about "speed and direction". That is; to turn in with speed so that the ski comes under the line as soon as possible and only then do you pick up the load - this being your stacked position when you are in control. This is where having the handle in on your hip is good (or doing a one handed gate). When you turn in you ease the handle towards the pylon which prevents the load coming on until the ski is under you (because you are wide and fast, this happens quickly and you pick up more speed from wide). Obviously this only applies if you turn in the front foot, otherwise you decelerate and either take a hit or pick up the load before the ski gets under the line.

Thinking about it, is this where loading late also applies? - if you have enough speed to get wide and turn in to the correct direction with the ski under the line then a later load is not bad - must mean that you just have more speed? Would in turn suggest that there is no maximum speed at turn in only minimum ? Gives us a working range of speed?

 

[Deep11]

Been struggling for internet connection (somewhere in the English Channel ) and actually posted last post before @matthewbrown response. Think we're discussing the same thing in that "ski momentarily behind "happens when you raise arm towards the pylon and lean in on front foot for the turn in, to let ski come under the line before the load picks you up - I think ? :)

 

[matthewbrown]

@shaneh I feel the dragging the toes a little too. @deep11 you got it

[Deep11]

@matthewbrown - thanks! A momentary piece of clarity!