EPA Regulations - the latest story

[Skoot1123]

Fellow waterskiers and anyone who owns land:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/14/wyoming-welder-faces-fine-for-building-pond-on-his-own-property/?intcmp=obnetwork

 

I just came across this story and it is alarming. A while back some of us had discussed this alarming trend of the EPA. We have encountered some of the same things in our desire to build a lake of our own. We had to jump through hoops to get all the paperwork done and have permits issued. We DID go through ALL the requirements that the State told us.

 

This is where the NMMA and other Industry experts and other factions can really help.

[Wish]

The nuts and bolts of how the EPA wants to redefine its authority as seen in the article;

 

"The proposed EPA changes would give the agency a say in ponds, lakes, wetlands and any stream -- natural or manmade -- that would have an effect on downstream navigable waters on both public land and private property"

 

They define downstream in a unique way. While we think of it as a river "streaming" in a certain direction, their definition is far more vague on purpose. Theirs is -at some point ALL water is connected in some way deep underground and everything is considered down stream. Therefore every body of water is connected no mater its origin, size or location. EPA will have total regulatory powers that override any and all local laws, rules and regulations.

 

Which ever political party is in power will control this branch of the government by placing like minded individuals in high positions within the EPA. No mater your political leanings, this is not good. Keep in mind the EPA controls "navigable waters". If this goes through, change that to "ALL". My thought is these changes will get done behind the scenes with little to no press.

[MISkier]

I guess we'll be building the next round of ski lakes with concrete bottoms. Then, it is not a pond - it's a really big pool. Pools aren't connected to the other water sources.

[Skoot1123]

@wish - exactly!! As I was reading the laws and regulations it was not discernable about where the navigable waters started and "ended". Apparently there is no end. Keeps me on pins and needles for sure. Anyone who owns a lake or has water going through their property will be subject to the "willy nillyness" of the EPA. I'll be keeping my eyes on this issue pretty closely!

[klindy]

@MISkier sorry man if doesn't necessarily work that way. Regardless of what's on the bottom the lake needs to be filled somehow. EPA already has rules dealing with run-off and wells. So if you want to rely on rain or groundwater they already have some level of jurisdiction.

[Skihack]

How many ski lakes would be affected when told to shut down by the EPA? How much would be lost in gas sales would be loss? Would it be a trend the oil companies wouldn't like? Oil company lobbying is a good bet if it was worth their trouble. Probably not.

[Edbrazil]

If the gummint gets involved with anything like this, they are probably going to screw it up.

Speaking as someone who had to deal with the Corps of Engineers some 30 years back.

[ral]

I do not know over there, but here if you build anything that stores more than 50,000 m3 of water, you need to submit an environmental impact study and get it approved by our "EPA". Navgable or not.

[MISkier]

@klindy,

 

OK, then. We'll build our own private skateboard park - with really bad drainage. Can we help it if we engineered it poorly?

[Wish]

The EPA's power grab has little to nothing to do with impact of anything that protects the environment. Similar to how the IRS does "not tax behavior" (cigarets, alcohol bad for you any way right?). This is a control grab in the name of "clean water/air". Control of your private property...Period. Your not just gonna give them control. The dumb masses will eat it up because everyone want's "clean water/air" ... right?. Your sacrifice of your private property rights is such a small price to pay..right?. It's not like they are gonna tell you what you can and cant do. They won't be unreasonable. That's just those crazy talking points. And I'm sure if they get out of control the press will be all over them and put them back in their place. Sorry for the rant of sarcasm.

[SocalWaterSki]

How would this effect lakes that were already built?

[Wish]

From above. ".....Therefore every body of water is connected no matter its origin, size or location" So when it was built does not matter. EPA will control it if they get their way.

[Skoot1123]

@socalwaterski - as I read it, and have re-read it ANY body of water "becomes" the governments. A seriours breech of PRIVATE PROPERTY. So in actuality it goes WAY further than "Clean air/water act." I'm not sure where it goes from here, but it does appear that many folks who are aware of this are not wasting time in getting the information out there. Basically this means the EPA/Guberment could DICTATE what they will about YOUR land/water/stream/property. Scary stuff indeed!

[SocalWaterSki]

Wow. That is downright scary. So there is essentially nothing that can be done about this? This could potentially have a huge impact on ski lakes. Being as I'm looking to either buy on a lake, or build a lake, how can this be dealt with? Are there just more hoops to jump through?

I'm getting a bit sick of the EPA.... First it was 100LL for the plane, now this.

[Wish]

Vote for and elect folks that believe in personal property rights and smaller less intrusive government. From your local officials to national politicians. Just that simple.

[Skoot1123]

@socalwaterski - in our case we brought the army corp of engineers in - they helped tremendously (even though at first they said put everything back to where it was). The state we live in was confident it would go through - but after our "detour" with the ACOE we waited until we had all permits till we started digging again.

[jipster43]

Remember. Our country was founded on the principle of a government of, for, and by the people. To the extent that it is not is a direct result of money in politics. If you have a multi-national corporation that can afford to buy a politician, then you can play. If not, hope you have the same politics as the billionaires and the corporations/banks they represent, 'cause that's the only way you're going to see your ideas manifested. Until we get money out of politics, it really doesn't matter what you do or think or even vote for.

[Wish]

@jipster43 Sorry dude. My vote counts.

[Jordan]

Ironic that they may effect ski lakes while allowing basically unlimited fracking.

[MrJones]

+1 Wish

[jipster43]

In Seattle they voted for mass transit and voted down the new football stadium. Which one do you think they got first? @Wish Your vote may count but I guarantee you Paul Allen's vote counts more!

[mwetskier]

it is not for us to serve our government it is for our government to serve us. study regulatory law and the administrative procedures act. any citizen with a financial or personal interest in any regulation by a government agency has standing to raise challenge to that regulation. if you can do the work yourself or just with the help of a paralegal it is not prohibitively expensive to get a challenge started.

[Skoot1123]

@mwetskier - good info to know. Thanks for sharing!

[MattP]

Alright guys let's keep the government and political talk to laws regarding water and EPA.

[MrJones]

That is what we are talking about.

[webbdawg99]

I should encourage my wife to set up a BallofSpray account and let her take all of us to school on this topic....

[MattP]

@MrJones‌ just a preventative measure before things take a potential wrong turn.

[Skoot1123]

@webbdawg99 - GO FOR IT. But PM me please! :D

[MrJones]

"I'd go about 2.503"

"You gotta control the handle"

"The new D3 is gonna be the bomb!"

"Get wider on your gate"

"I bet MS is cold right now"

 

Talking about skiing is much less fun than actually skiing... Some political commentary always makes thing more interesting. (IMHO of course)

[The_MS]

Sometimes politics have to come into the conversation and in this case, there is no way around it.

@MrJones I am very cold

[The_MS]

Every vote does count but the problem is the media is educating most of the voters with a bias that will only make stuff like this get worse.

[skidawg]

MattP,,,,,,,politics took a wrong turn a loooooong time ago

[ntx]

@skidawg I think that MattP is still to young to understand that.

[MattP]

@ntx @skidawg‌ too young? Possibly. Uneducated no. International Affairs (politics) is my area of study. I spend every day talking politics. I really don't want to deal with it here. This is my escape from all of that.

@webbdawg99‌ I would love to talk to her about it sometime.

[matthewbrown]

sorry @mattp but the left coast has not got a chance to chime in yet----->

Fox news, really? Staged propaganda garbage. He damed a freaking creek and material is being discharged downstream into other peoples lives…..it’s not just HIS private land we are talking about anymore. He was given ample opportunity to levy the situation but chose to pound his ignorant chest instead.

Granted, the state had approved his pond and should be charged for any changes he has to make. Doesn’t surprise me, the Governer of WY is an idiot who has waged a war against anything to do with science and I’m sure such mentality has trickled down to his minions who could care less if someone essentially dams up a creek, destroys entire ecosystems and pollutes the waters downstream. Sounds like the EPA is cleaning up what the State failed to do. I’m all for private property but private doesn’t mean you disregard others who may be affected.

You want to do away with the EPA, great, I’m sure the Coal plants will scrub mercury and sulfur out of their emmissions from the goodness of their hearts.

You can not compare this situation, to 95% of the private lakes we ski on it’s apples and oranges. Remember they already took all of our guns away, then our cars and next our houses and ski lakes and then finally our skis. The fear mongering is at an all time high….if Nate Smith thought about all this shit he wouldn’t be able to run his opener.

 

[Skihack]

Now the creek was already there. He just modified it with a dam. No polluting ski boats running in it. Just horses drinking and ducks wading. I really fail to see an issue with what could be discharging downstream anymore than if the creek hadn't been dammed up. A heavy rain would discharge water downstream in the same manner. The only issue I could see would be a failure of the dam possibly causing flooding. The EPA has already shut down the lake where one of the earliest Southern Regionals was held in North Carolina for this very reason. Now, the biggest problem I see coming will be the non skiers screaming that we are polluting downstream waters with exhaust emissions from the ski boats.

[MrJones]

Like most stories, there is likely one side, the other side, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Not knowing ALL of the details about this it's hard to truthfully argue this case. I do think that when you start damming flowing water it opens you up to a lot of problems vs. a pond/lake that is well fed.

 

The EPA, like most government bodies, does some good. Whether you think it is way too involved, about right, or not involved enough is likely due to your political leaning and/or experiences with same. I am sure nobody reading this is for wholesale pollution. On the otherhand the federal government doesn't need to be sticking it nose (or toe) into every 9 acre body of water.

[Wish]

@matthew‌brown Ok, lets say that all media is biased and have self serving agenda driven ideology in some way (I can site other left leaning networks) They all typically slant a certain way. Fine. Lets meet in the middle. Lets say it's just half as bad as some are spelling out and half nonsense as others put out. If the EPA wanted just half of what has been written about, you have to ask yourself why. Why does the EPA, an entity regulating navigable water ways, want to move further into a jurisdiction over private property? It's really simple. They have the easiest door to open. No other federal government entity has the clear air clean water excuse. The IRS certainly could levy tax burdens. They have in the past which has made certain behaviors harder to do be it good or bad in the eyes of the burdened. But if the IRS tried it, a hated government entity, it would never fly. At least not without tremendous pushback. But the EPA.... well, it's in the best interest of all of us that you do what they say. It's for the greater good. We all want clean water and clean air. Not sure the folks at the IRS or anyone else could pull that off. Accountants make terrible scientists. Now the EPA excuse can fly and has. The example of the damned stream (be it a poor one to for this thread) is just an example of the direction they are going. That should have been a local governing matter, not national as should decisions by local governing bodies for ski lakes. If you think the local is wacked...you can move. And you probably dont have to go that far to find like minded politicians and governing bodies. Or elect new ones. EPA is not local. Very very few people are making decisions on areas they have never been to. Cali is not FL and FL is not MN. One size does NOT fit all. It's really that simple. And what happens when that local "idiot" Governor gets appointed to the head of the EPA by the political party in power that you may not like? Is it then OK for him/her to make decisions for ALL. It could actually happen. Things used to be dealt with on a local level. But that is changing..slowly..but changing. Not propaganda when it hit's your backyard.

[OTF]

Every vote counts until none do, at which point every bullet counts.....

[skidawg]

So @mattbrown you dismiss Fox News as opinionated? What outlet would you consider to be worthy? For what it's worth I'm not a fan of any mainstream media

[Horton]

this thread was about to disintegrate the point where people who actually like each other were going to be very angry with each other. This is a water ski website. When guys are about to be angry at each other about things that are not literally about water skiing if is time for me to step in.