At the moment of edge change Part 2

[Horton]

In part one of this idea asked the question all wrong. Let me try again.

 

For the last few weeks I have been riding the HO CX SuperLite. If this ski is anything it is fast. When I say fast I mean it takes less effort than normal to run passes and I find myself very wide.

 

Before I get to my point let me state that the ski is also a little wider than a normal 67” skis and that could be a factor in what I am feeling.

 

I find that on this ski, I naturally stay connected longer off the second wake. I know for sure that on other skis I find this skill more (or less) challenging. There something mechanical about different skis or settings that affects what I do between the second wake the ball. What ever the difference is I can not feel it. I only experience the result.

 

To say the reverse: I know I want to say connected as much as possible and some skis make that harder.

 

This brings me to the real question. Why would the ski design impact my movements at center line and out to the ball?

 

When I first started thinking about I assumed that it was because the CX is a little wider and more stable. The logic was when the ski is more stable, I am more comfortable so I execute the task more technically.

 

I do not think that is the case. I think with a faster ski there is less load at the centerline so the skier is less stressed and can be more technical. I think that an excess of load means excess movement at edge change and or a tendency to go to a safe position. In my case the safe position is disconnected and on the tail. (my subconscious is a crappy skier)

 

So there are the questions.

A) Does a faster ski mean less load at the centerline for the same speed? If yes then go to B

B) If the skier is going faster and there is less load is it easier to be technical?

 

[Razorskier1]

John. I think the wider skis keep me on top of the water better and as a result create more speed with less load. That is what I notice on my Mapple vs my Razor. Razor was fast, but deeper in the lake. Mapplebis fast, but higher in the water.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Ahh, a less wacky question!

 

Answer A) yes as long as "faster" means less drag.

 

Answer B) yes, but........that assumes that by making the ski "faster" you can maintain all the control characteristics of the ski. In other words, you can make a ski faster without sacrificing the ski's other positive attributes.

 

Ski design is all about compromise and trying to reach an optimum balance of characteristics and in reality you are always trading one characteristic against another.

[andjules]

I'm increasingly thinking that this discussion gets off the rails for taxonomical reasons. "Fast" may ultimately be the wrong word.

 

Imagine:

i) You're standing at a bar, signing a credit card slip, without resting your forearm on the bar.

ii) Same as (i), but a rope is tied mid-way down your forearm with a 50lb weight attached.

Which signature will look better? Answer: (i) - when your muscles are flexing under high load (as in (ii)), it is more difficult to be subtle. I'm obviously metaphorically alluding to your question (b) - "...is it easier to be technical?". Yes. If YOU don't have your muscles under max load, or your joints locked, it is easier to be "technical".

 

Back to your question (a) and your use of the word 'fast'. In my mind, this is about a combination (compromise?) of the ski's surface area and stiffness. When I was about 13-14 years old, I was about 135lbs, and skied at 34mph on a late 70s, pre/non-graphite 63" Connelly Shortline. It had very little surface area and very little stiffness. It could turn on a dime in ways modern skis can't imagine. On the other hand, I could come out of the ball with significant angle, the ski would "dig in", but it wouldn't translate in to speed (certainly not compared to modern skis) because I wasn't leveraging my body position against either surface area or stiffness. It was a really, really "intense" experience (in my mind, it felt 'fast'), but it wasn't "fast" (at all) as you might use the word. It was a very slow ski. Because I'd be feeling maximum load in my muscles (leaning/leveraging, physically "stiff", trying to generate velocity with a ski that was neither rigid nor had large surface area), as per my bar-signature example above, it was unlikely that I could be technical or subtle.

 

Does that help?

 

http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/connelly-short-line-slalom-ski-75-picture-rocks-americanlisted_15008297.jpg

 

 

[Horton]

@‌ andjules

 

If a ski "Feels Fast" it is not. Your old Connelly was not. When a ski is fast and balanced it makes everything feel slow because it gives you time before the ball.

 

If a ski gets you to the centerline and then to the other ball line with minimum effort it is fast.

 

Or that is how I define it. Some day we will get data acquisition that this argument can be settled.

[gator1]

Slow ski means lift/drag is lower. That means you are pushing the ski farther ahead of you to stay balanced. At higher speeds this effect is magnified.

 

Let up at the edge change, the balance point moves from farther back to neutral. Bigger weight shift required.

 

Since your subconscious rides the back foot too much, climbing onto the center of the ski is tough for you to begin with. Add a draggy ski you have to push ahead of you and you are too far back to make the trip.

 

Also, draggy ski suffers more deceleration when you hit wake, so you have to ride it farther back

[ozski]

Flat with no angle on a slow ski can feel super fast at the ball... I agree with you Horton, wide and early on a fast ski = time which feels slow.

[andjules]

Oh @Horton, I don't doubt for a second that my Shortline wasn't fast at all, and modern skis are. I was just trying to point out that at the heart of your question was the stiffness/muscular rigidtity that happens when we're under heavy load or "lock" our joints. It is tough to be mechanically subtle in those cases, and as such, it kind of proves your point:

 

If I'm over-flexing my muscles, I won't be subtle/technical.

If my ski generates "speed" easily, I can be subtle/technical.

 

(the flipside of this discussion—important to keep in mind—is that a super stiff ski with lots of surface area ain't gonna turn on a dime)

[Gloersen]

Good thread

 

Your definition of fast "When a ski is fast and balanced it makes everything feel slow because it gives you time before the ball" is spot on. Fast=good velocity=space.

 

You already knew the answers to questions A & B, the real question remains unanswered:

 

C.) What ski will get me more buoys and why?

[The_MS]

Drive 100 MPH in a Porsche vs driving 100 in a Ford Focus and see what happens.

[Dacon62]

Assuming, as mentioned, that angle, rope load, direction are the same the ski that attains more speed is more efficient at converting energy from the boats pull into forward momentum(obviously). That skis attributes would be...more directional 'grip' which would convert more energy into forward momentum not lose it to 'slippage' or spray. A flatter on water attitude (less tail depth = less drag) and a slippery bottom should improve accelaration as well.

[Than_Bogan]

Good one about data acquisition settling this!

 

Data always provides some insight, but mostly just leads to harder questions.

 

But anyhow, I like this take a lot better. I may even understand your point.

[The_MS]

@Horton I know I want to say connected as much as possible and some skis make that harder.

Connected meaning 2 hands on the handle?

[Horton]

@‌ms

connected meaning 2 hands on the handle? yes

 

 

[6balls]

A fast feeling ski can be fast...depends on where it's fast. Fast and hectic into the buoy is not good. Fast cross course providing time on the other side is good...and when it does one may not feel fast/hectic into the ball due to space created.

 

Whether or not I'm fast/hectic into the buoy seems to have more to do with my technique (or lack thereof) on the outbound rather than simply speed of ski.

 

I'm an over-turner who loses speed at completion, needs to get across in a hurry since I didn't carry speed. A stiff ski that can accelerate quickly has helped me some with my habitual deficiencies. Need a big sweet spot too cuz I move around too much. Some water brakes and some sort of anti-XS roll device would be cool, too. Slow but in tolerance boat times are cool, too...crap, those went out of style years ago!

[ForrestGump]

You can have two hands on the handle and not be connected. I'm living proof.

[Razorskier1]

And I have seen some skiers (AM) stay connected even with one hand on the handle. Connection is about direction and line tension maintenance. I find it easier to "feel" connected with two hands on for as long as I can keep them on the handle.

[ForrestGump]

Yep, Andy is the best at staying connected with one hand on the handle. He's off the handle 2 ski lengths after the white water and yet his core is still connected to the handle all the way outbound to the buoy line.

[Horton]

@ShaneH I think you are right but I would rather act like it is not true because it is so wierd

[The_MS]

Nobody skis like Andy.

[mwetskier]

@ShaneH -if you mean andy keeps his ' 'core connected to the handle all the way' ' with pressure on the rope then i disagree. most of the time ive seen him ski he definitely has no pressure on the rope for a good part of his 1 3 5 pre turn. this you tube video shows what i mean on all passes but check out 00:25 -00:26 and 00:30 -00:31 where its obvious theres no pressure on the rope. so at those times hes not ' 'connected' ' in the sense i think is being discussed here.

 

 

i believe that right after the edge change mapple chooses his path visually from decades of experience and then rides it until hes ready to re connect to the boat and extend out into the actual turn. i think this is what nate smith and a few other exceptional skiers do too but i dont think its a technique that is worth pursuing for average skiers like me.

[ozski]

@mwetskier Good point (s) - time for some popcorn.

[ForrestGump]

Watch the video of Andy in the 28 to 38 off ski set up differences. He's at the buoy line and the line is tight. He's always moving his core out with the handle, regardless of what he does with the handle.

[mwetskier]

@Shaneh -do you have a link to that video i cant seem to find it her or on you tube.

[mwetskier]

@Shaneh -found the video you referenced. its much harder almost impossible actually to see mapples rope during the pre turn becasue it blends in with the water. the video i linked very obviously shows a soft even slack rope during his 1 3 5 pre turns. in his 28 to 25 off video you actually can see a bit of belly in the rope when the video freezes at 3:21 and if theres any belly to the rope theres just about zero pressure which is what i was referring to when i said i think he determines his pre turn path and just skis it with out regard to any particular core -handle pressure or connection.