Need some ideas or good charts for off-side fin settings

[epyscs]

Got an issue with my off-side that I am trying to get the grips with.

 

It 'feels' like the ski is taking a long-slow turn on my off-side and despite hooking up at the end, it takes a little too much pressure than I would like and I seem to come out of the buoy without much angle and pointing too-far down course with me standing slightly on the tail of the ski.

 

I dont want to add tip as the ski seems to engage ok and seems to hook up well and I dont think a tail blowout is too far away.

 

Any thoughts or ideas guys?

[Gloersen]

Submit more data...

 

Ski? (model/size/year)

Current setup? (bindings/position/fin settings/caliper method)

 

best to reset to stock recommendations for binding placement & fin settings then ski to the ski, emphasize technique, fine tune later.

[epyscs]

Sorry should have been more specific.

 

The ski is new and was set to factory everything (except wing) before my latest tweaks. Done with regular calipers / tips. I set up fins / bindings regularly and run into 35's... but cant find the adjustment that works to dial out the issue noted above.

 

Initially there were a few issues with the ski (slow, narrow and not coming under me in the turn) that were corrected by taking out a fraction of tip, moving DFT back a fraction and adding a touch more to the wing to put it to factory. I also went 1 hole back with the rear kicker, but that was due to too much contact with a front boot.

Current numbers are 6.698, 2.478, 0.898 and wing is around 7-8 ish.

 

The ski is fast and responsive now, but I have the issue mentioned before where I sometimes get the slow turn and roll onto the tail out of the hook-up. There is certainly some technique issues here, but I am trying to resolve those. ;)

 

Feel free to throw out any ideas on adjustments that might save an old guy from trying to fix it all with technique!

[BRY]

What model ski and length? 2.478 depth seems a little shallow and 0.898 DFT seems way forward for near stock settings. Would expect DFT to be more of a mid 0.7xx

[Adam Caldwell]

Simple fix. Start bumping fwd and shallower simultaneously.

 

2-3/1000s of depth, with 2/1000s further forward.

 

It will allow you carry more speed through pre-turn as ski will not sit as deep and will be 'free-er' off second wake (which should give you confidence to stay centered and forward on the ski and not rock back to prevent a tip dive at apex), allows more ski rotation & outbound slip in preturn, keeps tip higher at apex (thus tail stays deeper) and carry more momentum through the finish; as the tail will not suck in a hole as it is sliding through the finish higher with slightly less tip bevel pressure (excessive tip pressure post apex with too little speed is the root cause of tail blows...keep the tip moving with adequate speed and your good to go). This combo fin move, (based on what your describing as your issue now), reduces tip pressure after the apex, but allows ski to keep sliding/moving underfoot on the back of the ball, helping it to rotate quicker, finish earlier, and carry more speed back to center giving your the sense of more angle out of the ball.

 

However if you still think you close to a tail blowout afterward (which seems strange on a heel side turn) then your focus needs to turn to your boot setup on the ski. Not only location from tail of ski, but also location relative to the skis center line and any canting you may have front or back. If boots/feet are unbalanced over center, then your never going to find a happy medium with a fin setup to get both sides of the course to feel "good".

 

Good luck.

 

 

[mwetskier]

@adamhcaldwell -i pay strict attention to any thing you write about ski design or tuning maybe to the point of obsession but you confused me in the last paragraph when you use the term ' 'heel side turn' '. the o p is asking about his off side turn which i always thought was also called ' 'toe side' '. is that a typo or have i had the descriptions wrong all these years?

[epyscs]

@adamhcaldwell I will give it a try and let you know how it goes. Like @mwetskier the old heelside/toeside turn confuses me too! For me its good/bad or on/off side.

 

Re the feeling a blow-out isnt far away, I was talking about my off-side. For some reason I have a worse habit of blowing out off side. No idea why - it could never be the old come off handle early and dive on the tip! I would never admit to having such a bad habit!

 

Will try the changes mentioned and will post an update!

[ForrestGump]

What ski uses those fin numbers stock? That's super short AND shallow. Or was that a typo? Typically you'd see closer to 6.900 long with a shallow depth like that.

[Dusty]

I always find that if adding tip isn't what I want out of the ski, then moving the binding forward or fin back will give me a more aggressive off-side turn.

[lpskier]

Not to disagree with Adam, but I would leave the fin alone if your rear binding can rotate. If it is rotational, I would rotate the rear binder to the outside in 1/8th inch increments until you get the turn radius you are looking for. For example, if you are LFF, rotate the rear toe to the right of the center line of the ski, and move the heel an equal distance to the left of the center line.

[epyscs]

@lpskier the rear kicker is currently fully rotated.

 

As an update, I went with @adamhcaldwell suggestion and went forward a shade and took out a little depth. As per the suggestion, it did keep the ski under me more off the back of the ball on my off-side and stopped me falling back. Also, countintuitively in my head, it also stopped the feeling of a potential blowout on my off-side.

 

The ski is starting to fell way better, but seems to need quite a bit of effort to maintain angle/direction off the second wake. I am skiing a bit too much buoy to buoy and cranking the turn (and repeat!).

 

Thanks for the tip @adamhcaldwell‌

[ForrestGump]

That's likely a result of the super short length and short depth. The ski's got nothing to lever against to hold it's direction and speed.

[Adam Caldwell]

Make sure your working to get your hips underneath the line before the first wake, and that your maintaining good cross course lean; and most importantly, not falling toward tail of the ski out of the finish of the turn.

 

If you can manage that into the first wake, just keep your sternum "tall" (helps keep hips/pelvis forward, and pressure over ski center) and moving toward the next buoy as you swing off the second wake. This should help shift your mass forward more through the center and give you a more effective swing off second wake up on the boat.

 

If you still have space issues, then I think other people may be right in that your fin setup may not be providing adequate surface area to maintain ski direction and lift to keep you moving in the right places and carrying enough momentum through the turn.

 

I think to be clear, and so you can get the most out of your questions, what others, including myself need to know is what your complete setup looks like.

 

Ski year/model;

Size;

Fin numbers (and if you use tips/jaws on length, heads or needle on dft)

Front & rear boot location from the tail of the ski.

Boat & speed control system and setting.

Avg. Watertemp where your at this time of year...

 

Is very possible your setup is getting you out to the ball, but without enough energy/space/direction to carry you back under the line (when the fin is too small "area" wise" this can happen). So you end up with a sinking, very tight or crashing turn, but have to pull from right off the back of the buoy with a lot of load out off the buoy line, little cross-course speed and poor position on to of the ski. As a result your likely getting separated before the first wake and you get 'dragged, pulled and separated' all the way into the next ball.

 

The most important part about short-line slalom is maintaining the "connection" to the line (handle very close to hip center) all the way through the transition phase (first wake through second whitewash). If you have no ski speed carrying you back under the line out of the ball, and the tip is not staying in the water and carrying your momentum back to center-line, then your never going to be able to stay connected through the middle as the boat will OWN you before you hit the first wake and destroy any thoughts about a strong, stacked connected position. It becomes a function general understanding of the sport, philosophy, technique, and fin setup....while many have the technique to do this automatically, others, including myself, need the fin/ski setup to be right to get it to do the job for us....

 

Send out your complete ski setup and perhaps you'll get some good direction from the fine folks on BOS to help you find a solution.

 

Good luck!

[epyscs]

Ok, so to update the thread with a bit more info...

 

Ski is 14 67" Zen

Bindings at stock with rear 1 hole back (toes at most 5 mm from front shell)

Water probably 70 degrees (salty)

Zero off b2 behind 6 200

Jaws on length and head for dft.

 

Sorry for lack of a few details - too much time around info security guys!

[ForrestGump]

I wondered if it might be a Reflex as they're the only ones I know of with that small of a fin area. The problem is, we don't know where their fin settings came from. I always wondered how that ski would ride out to the buoy with that that little bit of fin area. Honestly, for giggles I'd try a conventional fin setting on it just to see what happens. Something like 6.840, 2.495, .750 dft.

[Adam Caldwell]

I too am curious how you got to the point of running so far out of the box with those fin numbers. Usually 20-30/1000s in a given direction from baseline is more then adequate to get the adjustment your looking for, unless of course you want to run a fin that supports a slightly different ideal/philosophy.

 

I also used to run super short fins, way far forward, and deep...0.830s, 6.700, 2.540. Loved em. That was before I learned how to get & stay connected with the boat all the way through the transition. After I figured that out, I started having to put WAY more length back in, and go shallower, as now I had a new set of issues, and needed the ski to be much more aggressive in slowing down and turning into & before the buoy, and no longer need to rely on the fin to carry my disconnected body, and back seat swing out to the buoy.

 

In general, a deep & short fin setup will help the ski tip to keep pointing outbound longer despite the fact that you may be coming off center-line completely disconnected and on the tail of the ski with poor cross course lean, and far less speed then required. The short/deep fin will keep the ski moving free and outbound longer (giving you a chance to get to the buoy line), and keep the tip up during a slower sinking style turn.... The great part is it will still turn and finish with a lot of angle, very aggressively, especially when its forward so far, the bad part is you likely don't have adequate momentum to carry you back into center-line very far during the finish of the turn. You end up with a lot of load on the line, from a wide point (no bueno, but its great because you feel the Hulk and can pull the boat all over the place) but will force you to be separated before the transition phase behind the boat (which kills your ability to swing high on the boat early, and run a 'higher" line with more energy).

 

For what its worth, before you get into a never ending loop of fin moves that will only fix the symptoms of a bigger underlying issue, maybe take a hard look at your technique/philosphy and overall understanding from a 30,000ft view (this is tough to do...trust me I know) .

 

When I say that, I insinuating that you investigate your position over the ski (never ever making a movement that is toward the tail of the ski). Do you completely understand your relationship, and role between the boat, the course, the line, the handle, the ski path? Are you maintaining consistent cross course lean out of the apex & into first wakes that is setting you up for a strong forward movement on the ski through the pre-turn; which helps you advance up on the boat faster/earlier, engage more ski in the water for a earlier tighter, higher energy turn? Is the tip height of the ski, and water break consistent through the center in both directions, and out of both sides of the turn? Do you pull the boat all over the course? Questions like these may help you find your focus as to what you might need to pay attention to when your out on the water next time. A little video never hurts either.

[Adam Caldwell]

Just wanted to say I was confused about what the 14 67" Zen was...didnt realize it was a reflex, and have no clue what stock fin numbers are....but anyway, good luck tweaking!

[ForrestGump]

If we look at this just from a perspective of what the ski seems to be doing, the symptom of slow turning offside is typically caused by not enough length/fin area. And not carrying direction is typically caused by not enough depth/fin area. Which is consistent with the reflex fin numbers in relation to almost every other ski made today.

[Adam Caldwell]

Is this the fin that is on the Reflex Ski? http://reflexwaterskiusa.com/product/alloy-fin/

 

It would explain why the fin numbers are so different from what we consider "standard" today with all the other companies out there

 

Looks like a different belly, different hole size & pattern& location, more rounded lower back corner (less area), yet with more effective area in upper back of fin with the missing hole.

 

Makes perfect sense that the numbers would be as described by @epyscs. Its all about area, drag, leverage, moment, pressure center, etc. Change a couple variables and your into an all new dimension of fin setups.