TylerR Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Looking good @mmosley899 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller webbdawg99 Posted March 19, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2014 @BMG73 I'm pretty sure that when you buy the OB4 system, you are buying the plate/plates and the release mechanisms. As far as I understand, you can use any boot shell/liner to mount to the OB4 release system. So if you like reflex, fogman, goode, fluid motion, even rollerblade, you can use them with this system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller AggieSkier Posted March 19, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2014 Do the 2 extra binding holes (near the front plunger) align with the HO EXO inserts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Zman Posted March 19, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2014 @Horton and @mmosley899 and @OB and @webbdawg99 Great responses, and fully agree with your comments that responded to the craziness. If there are those who seriously think weight is a significant factor, start a poll. You will be greatly out numbered (not that it matters). I wish I had something like this before July 12, 2012. Maybe I could have avoided surgery on my Achilles. @mmosley899 or @OB Will this work with Stradas if I start pulling them down tight? I thought I saw this has to be used with boots that your do not release from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 19, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2014 @BMG73 That boot is an affordable skate boot that I particularly like and I will offer that boot as an option on the release system. @Zman I have not tried a pair of Stradas on the system, but if I can get my hands on one I will see how it can work. No problem mounting them, but you may need to add an ankle/arch strap. @JayG80 the front holes do match the HO EXO inserts. The mounting plates have standard hole patterns in them. I am working on getting everything up on the website asap. I put that set together last night and already shipped it out! 99 more in the boxes... Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted March 20, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted March 20, 2014 @mmosley899 What do you do for skies that do not have the holes up front aka HO EXO holes. Also, I picked up an S2 with the EXO system and then compared it to mine. And I thought boots and plates were heavy. EXO's weigh a ton. So HO is not worried about weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @Wish For the screws up front you should install inserts, or go old style and screw directly into the ski. But for trying out the system you can use 3M auto trim tape. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @Zman, @TylerR stopped by with Stradas to look at, and he actually brought the beer. I think you can make those work, we will have to talk more about it. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 Stradas tightened down tight with this system would be really cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MAD11 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @mmosley899 This may have been asked already but here goes. It looks like additional holes will need to be drilled in the ski over the standard pattern. Am I correct on this? Also, understand you can mount your own boots. Does the setup accommodate being able to change your spread? (think it will but wanted to ask) I tried the Fluid motion double 6's many years ago and felt they were very safe, but could never get the adjustments right as I couldn't change my spread. It was both boots move or nothing. Looks like you have done a nice job by the way and certainly put in a lot of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @MAD11 Thanks! For permanent installation you will need the additional screws up front. Inserts can be installed there. You can install your own boots. There is some adjustment built into the boot plate for forward and back placement. More adjustment can be done with the mounting holes in the boot. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 Are those Pro 80 skate boots? If so, that's a damn good choice as you can buy em for $65 a pair from Academy, Dicks, or Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 That's it, I'm convinced @ShaneH knows a little bit about almost everything. Really, pro 80 skate boots, where to buy them, and the price? Unbelieveable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rfa Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @mmosley899 congrats on a nice looking system! As a long time Fogman user I am very interested in learning about the "mechanics" of your release approach as it differs from the single plate Fogman. You mentioned there will be a video explaining that sometime in the future...any update on timing for that? Thank you and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 20, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 20, 2014 @rfa Since I just got the new product, it will take me a week or so to do some of the videos. But I will get them up as quick as possible. @Shane I have used a variety of skate boots over the years. Those boots will work quite well after they are modified to fit the plates. If you are handy and have a shop to work in, you can do all of that yourself. If I do it for you, they won't be quite that cheap. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I would imagine that screwing into the ski or adding inserts would void the warranty and hurt the resale value of the ski. Can the 3M automotive tape be substituted as a permanent solution up front? My experience working with it, it is extremely difficult to remove from the ski. So you wouldn't need a lot of it up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rfa Posted March 21, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 21, 2014 @KM a bit of "'apples and oranges" but i believe relevant. I have used Fogman (same plunger arrangement front and back as OB4) for about 10 years and only drilled on the very first ski. On the last 3 skis I have used "adapter" plates using the conventional inserts only. Up front I use a strip of 3M tape...so far (~6 years) no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 22, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2014 @KM I haven't used the 3M tape long enough to say, but @rfa says it lasts... I am testing it now. You just need enough holding to counter the force needed to pull up the release lever, the standard plate screws will keep the mounting system in place. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted March 22, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 22, 2014 That's always been the FM suggestion for the front plate, you can tape instead of installing a new row of inserts. I personally installed inserts for the front row of holes. Boot spacing IMO isn't as important, moving both boots works fine - you just want to make sure you are in the smallest size available for your foot size to make sure to minimize the width between feet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doonez Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 HO did an adapter plate so you could mount Exos to standard hole patterns without drilling. If this system is the same pattern as Exos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted March 26, 2014 Baller Share Posted March 26, 2014 Probably not a good plan to use double mounting plates... Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Price is out, $850!!!! for just the mounting plates. I was really excited to get some too because it looked like they were an FM release system, only better. But that is like $200 more then a quattro system with boots and liners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 1, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted April 1, 2014 $850 is a lot for just the release system. But probably cheaper then most heath insurance deductibles....almost did an ACA joke there but resisted.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJVDMZN Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 @mmosley899, I see that you have a tension adjustment for the front as well as the rear boot. Could you have made the system shorter by eliminating the front adjustment and using the rear to adjust the tension for both boots? My train of thought is that, if one boot releases the other should as well and immediately to prevent injury. This would also loose some "weight" ;) and bring the costing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 I got to see the final version of this system first hand this weekend. I will say that there is not more noticeable weight with this system over others. @jjbdmzn I'm looking forward to trying the system out here soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller chris_logan Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 I also got to see and handle the final version of the OB4 this weekend. If you are worried about price, when was the last time you priced a new Reflex system? Not much difference price wise, but probably much more reliable once you get it dialed in where you want it and maintain it correctly. Also got to watch some demonstration of how it works on jumpers and it does the job well. I hope to get to try it out in a couple weeks to determine if I need to re-designate some savings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MAD11 Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 My biggest concern is if I have to drill holes that aren't in the ski already, how does it effect my warranty? Went away from Fogmans for that very reason. A great looking system, but something I would need to think about how to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 @JJVDMZN there are two separate plates involved, they each releases when the tension set point is exceeded... Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 @MAD11 we are using 3M auto trim tape to hold down the lever area on some of our test skis. That seems to be working just fine. The mounting plate is held securely in place by the standard insert screws. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skialex Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 Is 850$ for two boot setup? If yes I gess it is not that more expensive than reflex or FM. I like that it can be used by skiers both on double or single setups. Also I prefer that it releases seperately despite the weight and cost issue, I believe that the single released systems puts a lot of stress to the Achilles' tendon of the rear foot. Great job!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJVDMZN Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 @MattP, the weight comment was tongue in cheek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countymountie Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I like the ability to run a Strada binder tight or a Power Shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfennell Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 @skialex no it is $850 just for the plates. Plus $145 for a pair of $70 rollerblade boots modified to fit on the plates. Pretty pricey for an unproven product, but who knows maybe it is truly amazing and the sellers know it. It is $50 more then a pair of reflex boots at list price, I am sure I could get a deal on reflex if I tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted April 1, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2014 They have to start somewhere. The market will sort itself out over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 I mean... lots of machined parts. I am confused by a functionality point.. One of the KEY points of function in the FM quattro's was always the fact that the rear boot and front boot were linked together, such that in a fall that disengaged the rear boot from the plunger, the front boot was "held" on by either plain velcro (not the 3M interloc) or the Z-Clip. I always and currently do - run mine with Z-Clips and I singe lots of the velcro to reduce its grip. Essentially my front heel is held down just enough to barely pick the ski up from the dock unless locked in by the rear boot. As I am seeing the front plate on the OB4 is hooked under at the heel and has a plunger at the front. This seems to imply that the release requires the plate to move forward to get out from the heel ledge in an OTF crash? How do you link the functionality of the releases together when they have separate releases with a rigid middle block separating the boots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 @BraceMaker There should be some videos being posted here soon about how it all works. I was personally skeptical until @mmosley899 showed me and @chris_logan this weekend. I was impressed to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller chris_logan Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 @BraceMaker To put it in crude terms, the block at the end opposite of the plunger is not a square fit. There is a slight downward angle on the top of the block (on the plate mounted to the boot). The upward force on the heel on the angled block pushes the boot forward - allowed by the plunger - and it releases. I got to simulate this by hand on shore and it popped out as one would want it to, though I could hardly believe my eyes the first time to which I wanted to see it done a few more times before it sank in. @mmosley899 definitely has a more precise answer to that, but that's how I understood it as I looked at it and did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 @mmosley899: If you put two slots in that center block where it is mounted to the plate, such that it is allowed to slide forwards and backwards, I think you could get a positive instantaneous release of both boots. Pin the back plate so when it is clicked in it can't travel frontwards. Back boot releases, block slides back, takes all load off front plunger, voila, front releases. Front boot releases, block slides forward, takes all load off rear plunger, bingo, back boot releases. I was playing around with this for awhile a couple of years ago by just cutting a fogman in two pieces and TIGed beveled tabs to the remaining plates. Seemed to work pretty well. But I haven't seen your deal in the flesh, so I'm guessing at how yours works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller webbdawg99 Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 @kfennell The OB4 system is actually a re-engineering of a system that has been in use for decades. To say it is "unproven" isn't quite accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 @chris_logan that angle is apparent - that's my point about requiring the front plate to move forwards to clear the heel ledge. My point more specifically is that if the central "bridge/block" that the angled front plate hooks under is a "fixed" point (as implied by the fact that it is being used a single plate front hardshell with RTP) then the front and rear boots release "separately" @Gator1 is on the same page with his post, if that central block either slides or pivots - or if the front plate and rear plate "hook" together - then you have assurance that both will release simultaneously. I am kind of a stickler about this - I use FM quattro's for one reason - a spiral fractured femur as a result of a one leg out one leg in crash stopped me from waterskiing for 5 years in my youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 @OB, My post sure was not meant as bashing. I think the mod I suggested could be easily incorporated and would answer the one-foot-in fears the people have raised. Help OB4 sell more. But, like I said, I haven't seen prints of the OB4, so I'm not positive about that. Unfortunately, the numbers and stats for our sport haven't yet allowed any industry standard method for determining how well a binding works. So, we end up talking about how a release system will work in theory when it encounters the different types of falls we have had or can imagine. And, our wonderful legal system makes it almost impossible for a manufacturer to talk about his binding in theory for fear of saying something that will be used against him in the future. For example, (and I do not have any inside data on this), why does the Stealth have the super stiff external tongue on the front boot? There is no data or explanation I can find from them on why. You don't bump up against that tongue in normal skiing. I THINK they put it there to reinforce the Achilles in a crushing OTF. But, and I DO know this to be true, the lawyers will tell you that talking about how you have solved a problem makes you that much more liable for having that problem in the past. Imagine the bastards in court: "So, Mr. Gates, we see in your advertisement here, exhibit 1, that you incorporated a gatormod in your latest binding design to make the binding safer. Why was that?" Me: "Well, we found in our previous designs that people were ripping the shit out of their ankles in a crushing OTF, and this mod prevents it" Lawyer: "So, while you worked on the gatormod, you continued to sell a binding that injured your customers even though you knew it caused injuries" Me: "Um, skiing is a dangerous sport". Jury: "twenty gabillion $s to the defendant" I really wish we could at least come up with a standard list of the types of falls that we encounter, and then let the manufacturers discuss how their designs function in that type of fall. Like: Crushing OTF (tail skip or buoy hop). Peeling OTF (hinge at the waist coming at the wake). One foot out, crushing OTF (buoy hop in a RTP). Rear Peeling windmill (rodeo crash out the back after too hard on the tail turn) . Crushing windmill. ETC. Then, at least, we could have an industry-wide discussion on the mechanical attributes, and the discussion would be somewhat protected from the lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted April 2, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 2, 2014 Please do not consider my post a bash - it is not. Big fan of double plate systems - for many reasons - I personally would like to see a feature that would relieve the pressure from the front plate if the rear plate began to release - I always visualized it as a transfer bar held forwards by the front of the rear plate, possibly with a urethane bushing to act as a spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted April 3, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 3, 2014 Guys I like the discussion, and the ideas! Over time I can improve the design with your input. But changes do take time and R&D and money. As pointed out by @webbdawg99 and @OB, this system is something I have been using for years and it was through their encouragement, and others, that we decided to form OB4 to produce a release system for water skiing. When you get the chance please look the system over in person. In the meantime, I am trying to get some video put together to show you better how it works. Regardless, this system will not suit everyone... This release system is built specifically for water skiing, and we are not using someone else's parts that are mass produced. That does make it more expensive! If I can find a way to sell it cheaper, I will. The guys that have had to sit out a season from an injury probably look at costs differently. Also, OB4 is building a release system and not ski boots. The inexpensive boots shown are simply an option. If you already have boots, I suggest you use them as you will already be comfortable with their feel. For the absolute best boots, contact @Brewski! Most water ski boots available originate as skate boots and there are many sources for those. Right now I am focusing on producing an outstanding release system. Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted April 6, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 6, 2014 OB4 Videos posted... release demo jumper Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted April 6, 2014 Baller_ Share Posted April 6, 2014 The ability to release sideways is very impressive. Well done @mmosley899 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller webbdawg99 Posted April 7, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 7, 2014 One of the major problems with many release systems is the difficulty in a straight OTF crash. I think the OTF release in the demo above is very impressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Zman Posted April 7, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 7, 2014 @mmosley889 Can we see a video showing how the Front heel would release when stuffing the tip too hard in a turn, a straight downward push on the front foot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mmosley899 Posted April 7, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 7, 2014 @Zman will simulated on dry land do? or are you volunteering to go OTF? Mike's Overall Binding USA Water Ski Senior Judge Senior Driver Senior Tech Controller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller SkiJay Posted April 7, 2014 Baller Share Posted April 7, 2014 I like how easily the plate was reattached to the ski after each release in the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Can Fogman releases be used in place of the OB4 releases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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