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Should they bring back Ski Fly


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Some or all of the below is the problem

Requires a special boat?

 

Requires a bigger lake

 

Increased the rate of injuries

 

To the untrained eye it is not that much of a better show

 

It is perhaps a bigger spectacle but it is not a greater demonstration of skill – in other words the top guys are still the top guys.

 

If this would get skiing in the x-games I am all for it but if it is just another splinter in a struggling sport, I do not get it.

 

I would love to watch but I can’t see the big picture payoff

 

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Originally I thought why not if they want to do it but after reading @Horton's comments I went with focus on the night events.

 

My question though is have the jumpers pretty much maximized the distance they can go off a 6' jump at current max speed. Unless I am mistaken the jump record hasn't been moved in a few years.

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@Horton

Some or all of the below is the problem

Requires a special boat? Not really, PCM, Ilmore and Indmar all have readily available supercharged packages, unlike the skifly days of the past.

 

Requires a bigger lake: Not Really, The current record was set on a lake less than 1700 feet long

 

Increased the rate of injuries, Actually the ski Fly ramp is a softer ramp then that of a 6 foot, skis and equipment for skiflying are about the same as that a high end motocross rider wears.

 

To the untrained eye it is not that much of a better show: I call BS on that one! seeing a skiflyer get off over 290' is truly a big show and incredible to see!

 

It is perhaps a bigger spectacle but it is not a greater demonstration of skill – in other words the top guys are still the top guys. Again BS ask any of them that have done it. Strength, timing and athletic prowess is truly needed as well as a higher level of skill!

 

If this would get skiing in the x-games I am all for it but if it is just another splinter in a struggling sport, I do not get it. The X games have become a joke, now winter X is another story but we don't ski fly in the winter.

 

I would love to watch but I can’t see the big picture payoff: Agreed! but only because of the negativity with in the other elements (Slalom Geeks) of our sport that would rather not share the spot light and prize money for skiflying to make a real go of it.

 

Disclaimer: Ski Flying is an extreme sport truly on par with the worlds top other extreme sports. It can be dangerous and people have and will get hurt! but then again so is 6' jumping, Ski racing, parasailing, paragliding,base jumping,Arena cross, Drag boat racing, Unlimited hydroplane racing, air races,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Just my input.

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Guess the crazy skiers like Scot would have kept it going if it was in the best interest of their sport. Agree - sort of - that maybe from shore, not that much different. But, when I lived on Lake Tennessee and got to ride in the boat a couple times and watch the Rocketman ski fly from the other end of the rope, it was really awesome! Especially back when the Nautique he was using had turbo charge and during the cuts you would hear the high pitch as the turbo wound up. The speed, the launch, the height and distance was mind boggling.
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Tough one... @Horton and @Jody_Seal have both got pretty valid points.

I think realistically SkiFlying needs a dedicated person/group to promote it - it'd be great if it was in the X-Games... but existing resources/efforts shouldn't be diverted to it. We need to make our 'regular' skiing/tournaments more engaging AND less exclusive, without introducing even more expensive and esoteric equipment.

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I had a discussion with someone about SkiFly this past weekend.

It should be in the X-Games and I may or may not have put some wheels in motion for this earlier this year..

I remember back at Masters one year when it seemed like the first 3 women off the dock were carted off due to some hard crashes. Call me sexist but possibly just bring it back for men (at first). The top guys will still be the top guys and I think it should be limited to the top guys for safety reasons. I also remember a lot of the athletes doing ski fly did not have the ramp/facilities to practice it which made the events a little more sketchy.

I agree with @andjules that it needs a dedicated group to run it and not take away from current resources.

@Jody_Seal is right on the money.

 

@Chef23 yea but Freddy was 1foot away this past fall.

 

How is this not cool

Skifly 299

 

Jump 247

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Somewhat echoing @mattp above. One survey alternative not available would be:

"Yes, but do it right this time"

 

More extensive comments to follow later.

 

Interesting coincidence is that the snow and water Ski Fly records are almost exactly the same,

although metric vs. feet.

 

Snow: 246.5 meters. Water: 246.7 feet; 75.2m.

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@Chef23 I am sure that someone will get more of the details right, but just off the top of my head. The rope length was 100 feet I think. The length of the ramp out of water was several feet longer. That reduced the incline angle. I am not sure about the the height. It may have been less than 6 maybe 5 9. The boat speed was increased but I don't remember the speed 45??? maybe. The guys who did it said that they did not need to cut as late and the decrease in the incline angle was less impact. I think the jump was much more open than what we have now. Again, not sure on all the deatils but that is a start. The year they did it at nationals in Bakersfield was pretty awesome. I think that was early 2000's maybe 2001
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To: @Jody_Seal: trying to force the event into all the Tour stops that year, where there

are only a very few sites suitable for it. Plus, few training opportunities where there was

a longer ramp and especially a high-HP boat.

 

That would have been the Season 2000. For that year, in my opinion, the Americas Cup

at Okeeheelee was really the only appropriate site. Unless someone has gone out to

harvest anchors, we put in nearly 100 bottom-anchored items, from a totally separate

SL course, dual-direction Ski Fly course, and Wakeboard apparatus.

 

Ft. Lauderdale turned out relatively OK, also. With some luck vs. winds.

 

Specs (still in the IWWF rules, Rule 18):

45 mph boat speed (72 kph) men, but no timing in the 41m segment.

Towline length 32 meters max. Bring your own towline, which is a rule that now has

transferred to standard jumping.

Ramp about 5' 10" setting, but longer out of water (7.35--7.50m). .239 target angle.

The total length of a standard 24 foot ramp is 7.32m, so a special ($$$) ramp was

needed, or a ramp extension needed to be added on. More out-of-plane allowed.

"Open" 5 to 7 degrees. Think that was lowered later on.

Taller pylon line attachment by a bit: 1.3 m

Another set of wider boat spacing buoys, at the 23m line.

The 210m cut buoy was required, plus a 240m buoy suggested.

 

There were some nasty crashes. My ideas for a revival to follow later.

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@Jody_Seal

Can you name 3 of the top 10 on the standings list that think it is s good idea?

 

I bet some guys from 20 to 50 on the standings list would like a crack at it but I would also bet most of the top guys do not.

 

I asked my pro jump insider spy about it today. The response was basically "Hell No"

 

 

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@Horton

 

I already named the #1 guy in another thread! he said he would love to take a poke at the record But he aint doing it for nothing and the prize money needs to be substantial! I think that this would probably apply to a number of the top guy's.

I in the last year have been approached by a top 10'er about a year ago to supply a big HP boat to pull a record attempt for a TV show, This did not manifest it's self but again someone is thinking about it!

Steve-O (#30) just said hell yea! But then again he is in the 20-50 range. Steve-O had the Junior ski fly record for about 10 min (199') Then Brody Reid went out and busted a 202'.

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OK, adding on a few more thoughts. Ski Flying had its prime times back some 10 years ago, but I wouldn't consider it dead yet. As before, it just has to be done right.

 

For starters, there needs to be an appropriate site, with plenty of training opportunities.

And, other places to train. Scot Ellis might be able to provide that, as one location. For a

tournament Ski Fly site, I'm thinking of Okeeheelee. Back in Year 2000, the Americas Cup

ran in their Main Canal, with Slalom, Ski Flying, and Wakeboard. Was quite a nice and

innovative event, and for sure it was not cheap to produce.

 

Such an event would happen over at least one full week. With plenty of training and coaching

happening. Similar to snow ski flying, the competitive rounds would not need to happen

no matter the weather. Probably not a great spectator event, but for sure a TV event.

 

Unlikely that the Main Canal at Okee would be available for that amount of time. Their

Jump site would probably be the place. But, with the ramp location moved back Northward

a bit. And, for sure, a brand new ramp. Yup, not cheap. The existing Video Jump towers

would probably work, with the ramp moved back.

 

I've always been a bit concerned with a 45mph (72kph) top speed, as to whether that is just

too much. One item of the specifications to consider. I would also eliminate any towline

length restriction. 32 meters max now. I highly doubt that much more would be practical.

 

I've had some ideas about a Super-ramp that would have some special dimensions. With

the first 1/3 being the "Impact Zone", the second 1/3 being the "Compression Zone", and

the final 1/3 being the "Takeoff Zone". Whether anyone is willing to fork over some $50K

for such a structure is questionable. But, the whole event would certainly need to have a

budget around 1/2 million. (Mr. Gates, are you listening?).

 

Along with the Ski Flying adhering to Rules specifications, I would also want to see some

consideration toward an "Unlimited/Outlaw" event. You bring your boat, your driver, and

maybe even your ramp. To my memory, back-back, Ricky McCormick had some ideas

about that. Once again, Big Buck$ would have to be on the line.

 

In the big year of Ski Flying, there was a $100K bonus for a distance of 323 feet. Likely

was a safe bet, although the record had been advancing significantly. I would have voted

for 300 feet. Although, there is also the 100 meter "barrier" lurking there, at 328 feet.

 

My comments from guy who first water skied when the Record (yes, Mens) was under 100 feet.

And, who lived on the lake where that "barrier" was first exceeded in 1954.

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Biggest problem w/Ski Flying was only a select few had access to a facility to practice. Don't remember anyone winning, or placing for that matter, the event that didn't have access to practice. Generally the only time most of the competitors practiced was in the actual tournament. End result was more serious crashes than occurred in regular jump. Ski fly was a part of the Masters for very few years (I'm thinking 3 but not 100% sure) and during that time period there were 2 skiers (that I remember) taken out of the water on a back board . Don't remember seeing any other skiers taken out on a back board in the 20+ other Masters I've attended/worked.

 

I'm all for more excitement in the sport but not at the expense of safety. The money for the infrastructure needed to make this as safe as possible simply isn't there. How many ski sites are willing to spend the money to upgrade their ramp?

 

 

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@Inboardfix: Actually that is not true! I participated as a driver in many events and went around with one of the boats to many sites and pulled hours of practice. the jumpers / flyers involved were very helpfull and coaching each other. Jaret, freddy, Scot and Bruce were all available to anyone wanting coaching. during this time these guys were as cohesive a group as any i have seen in our sport. they all knew the consequences and they all coached each other to fly the best they could safely,actually practice time was readily available .

funny how erroneous outside statements surface today, Ski Fly could have taken the sport to the next level but too many nay Sayers and uneducated (girly type) with influential powers had a big impact in making this aspect of our sport go away. maybe the 20-50 ranked jumpers will bring it back!

 

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@jody_seal Define "many" sites? There simply weren't many Ski Fly ramps.

 

Never said those pushing Ski Fly weren't helpful. Jaret, Freddy, Scot and Bruce are great guys (don't know Freddy personally but have heard nothing but good). However, I stand by my statement the majority of professional jumpers didn't have adequate practice with the ramp which resulted in inconsistency with all but the very few who had full access to a ramp and supercharged red w/silver cloud N Ski Nautique.

 

Is Cory ready to drop the $ to make his site Ski Fly capable? He'd be one of the few who could justify it but even in view of his interests I'd be surprised he'd drop the change to do it. How may other sites would be willing to do it?

 

 

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@Inboardfix,

During the time we were ski flying many sites were adding the extra two feet needed for the event, at the time we were calling them universal Ramps, Most all of the Beemen Ramps that were being built during this time were Ski fly capable. most that had the universal ramp capabilities were hoping that it would become mainstream and standard jumping would move over to what many considered a safer ramp. Keep in mind even today most of the top jumpers train in Florida (as well as live their ) before many of the big tournaments and this was true during the ski fly day's If you were their would you would know this! we had two boats and they were made available for the top jumpers to train with at many sites around central Florida.

Today their are sites barely adequate to accommodate standard jumping but they still jump at these sites. Yes Cory's is a site that would be great for Ski Flying, it has a prevailing head wind and is wide enough for the longer rope, WPB another, Bakersfield, The Projects in Orlando, Fantasy of flight, their were a couple of sites in the mid west (Richard Manley still owns a python equipped SN that they used in the mid west) set up for ski flying I can go on and on of the availability of sites, ramps and BBC or supercharged equipped boats around the country and even overseas. We had two cash prize Skifly events down under, Mulwalla and Milton res. The skiers had as many practice sets as they wanted many day's prior the the events.

 

One of the issues to the demise of skiflying was that promoters tried to inter-wind the events between standard jump events and ski fly events, One week they could flying the next jumping the transition was tough. Had we had a dedicated ski fly season I think we would still be doing it today.

 

@Edbrazil I like the run what ya brung idea! Come in with your own boat and driver and go for it!

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@jody_seal

Perhaps call an Unlimited/Outlaw "Run what ya brung" class the Knievel Option.

 

Going to happen sometime, hopefully within my lifetime, and also done with as many

safety measures that such an extreme event needs. And, many buck$. Back-back when,

the early Marine World jump events in Redwood City had something like a bonus of

$1000 per foot for exceeding the site record. One year, Mike Hazelwood won both

the SL and JU and earned about a $ 5,000 bonus for increasing the site record.

 

BTW: Back On The Tour, in all the events that were held over the years NO ONE ever

won both Men SL and JU. Not sure about women. Carl came close, I believe, to pulling

off the sweep.

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The Universal Ramp was "The Bomb"! 5' 10", 24' 6" Long, More surface, Safer and more fun. We did a sample on it and it was perfect for all levels of skiers. It was good for beginners and pros. Amateur Ski Fly was the most fun I have ever had. Thanks to Scot Ellis, hosting a ski fly clinic in 2000, I kept on jumping. After moving to Men 4 in 1999, I was going to retire from jumping. The 30 MPH speed, No faster second segment made for a hairy approach to the ramp and hard landings and worse ride outs. We campaigned for 32 MPH, Faster Second Segments and got it. I kept on jumping and still enjoy it. I miss Ski Fly, That kept the adrenaline flowing for several years. I really think that the people against it were just too lazy to extend their ramps. It did not take a special boat to pull amateur ski fly. The speeds were increased 5 mph without a second segment time and you just never saw any "out-the backs" and very few non ride outs. The longer ropes made the approach much better. Jody was pulling me the first time I tried it behind a bad-a%% boat. The red and white lightning was like grabbing a tiger by the tail. So much fun. We ended up ordering a red/white/ blue Malibu with an 8.2 Chevy in it. WOW! We had some major fun. All ages, Big Smiles!
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There is some history of jump ramps that were different from today's 14 foot wide standard,

and specified by the ramp angle (actually H/L or sine of the angle).

 

When I was just a kiddie, the family next door had an 8-foot wide ramp. And no side curtains.

That wasn't all that unusual in the days before the Double Cut. Hearsay is that at an Eastern

tournament early 1950's, the 6-foot wide ramp rolled over.

 

Back then, you went from 5' 28 mph in Boys to 6' 35 mph the next year in Mens. Ham

would remember that. Also, back then, with the way the 6-foot ramp was specified in

the Rules, it could still be within tolerance at 6' 1 1/2" high with 20' 0" out of water.

And, 2 inches swayback out of plane. Shooting you up to the stratosphere and coming

down like a ton of bricks on landing.

 

For the 1954 Nationals in Laconia, NH, the Weirs Ski Club took their 2: 10-foot wide ramps

and fastened them together to make a 20-footer. Probably the first and last time for that,

although I believe that some ski shows later on had extra-wide ramp.

 

Circa 1970, a proposal to make the max. ramp width 16 feet barely failed on a vote by

the AWSA Board. Actually, was a 10-10 tie. I'd favored that not just for more room to

get on, but because there would have no need to cut plywood 4 x 8 sheets.

 

Maybe when I get a chance to look up old Water Skier magazines circa 1960, I can find

an article about DSO jumping. Not jumping on some drug supplement, but Double-cut

Straight Over. Where the boat path was angled maybe 15 degrees, so that your track was

more or less straight up the ramp. Some jumpers, like Mike Osborn, favored it, but it

didn't catch on. For one thing, with left-hand jumping then, it needed an extra-wide site.

 

I never tried it. But, thinking that at the start of your cut, you'd look plenty "early", until

you came across the wakes. Would have had to allow passing on the right side of the ramp.

A main concern is that if you came through the wakes with plenty of speed and good

alignment, but off-balance, if you just let go, you were still going to "eat" the ramp.

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I would love to give the 300 a shot. Conditions have to be perfect and it has to be in a controlled setting where the athletes, organizers and officials are all working together. I see it as a massive once a year event. I am hoping to give some version of ski flying a shot within the next few years.
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@ob - we'll have to put you on my Stiffy Longboards (90") and tow you over Goodman's ramp the weekend of July 12, there's a R tourney up there that's a ton of fun, big group of Canadians and lots of kids, when's the last time you've seen a running order of 40 Trickers, and 30 Jumpers ?
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Jump is about calculated risk. I am willing to do a few calculations and hit a ski fly ramp with a monster of a boat! Nothing makes me smile like kicking a huge jump so I have to give it a shot at some point! From talking to Freddy and Jaret I do think 100M is possible....just who is crazy enough to give it a shot is the question...

 

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I have had trouble answering this poll - and haven't yet because of the safety issues that were encountered in the past. With that being said, it would be an awesome event if some of the safety issues were mitigated (longer lakes, rescue swimmers in close proximity to landing spots etc). That previous video of Jarret was absolutely incredible - how awesome to fly a football field.... or more? Perhaps RedBull would sponser..... or X-games......or MountainDew. Get AMPED for the ramp.....
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