Rossi Answers Chapter 1.1 (keep elbows/arms in & the Smear)

[Horton]

@wish

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

[mwetskier]

@gator1 -i am pretty sure the goal of smear is to not scrub speed at all. in powder snow skiing the idea is to drift the ski through a longer turn *without* losing much speed. in water skiing the purest form of smear has got to be when a jumper is on the jump ramp and his skis slide side ways from lower right corner to upper left corner while not having his forward speed affected by the side ways drag. on a trick ski when you go into a side slide you immediately feel the drag of your ski drop way down -most beginners fall out the back on there first attempts due to that loss of drag.

the way i understand smear in slalom is your ski is sort of sliding out bound as it slowly turns down course buying you width without losing momentum. the goal is to not have to pull long but still get up on the boat and out to the buoy so scrubbing speed would be last thing you want. once youve set a hard edge youve defined your path and if you didnt pull hard enuff youll turn narrow and early. if you pulled to long and set a hard edge youll finish down course but if you pull just to the second wake and then can still drift your ski out bound with this smear technique you can finish at the ball with speed.

at least thats what i get out of it when i apply the snow ski concept to water. understanding it does not mean i can do it unfortunately.

[gator1]

@mwetskier Nope. You're wrong about the snow ski part of it.

 

If you want to MAINTAIN speed on/in snow you carve the turn, with ski tipped up on edge with the goal of minimum transverse slippage. If you want to scrub speed on hard snow you skid the turn, with skis less edged. If you want to scrub speed in soft snow, you smear the turn, with skis less edged.

 

I'm pretty sure, starting with your misunderstanding of the smear in snow, you're wrong about how it applies to water.

[jimbrake]

I'm out.

[SkiJay]

It seems some here may be under the impression that smearing the ski is a technique in itself. Smear is more a byproduct of proper technique than it is something that you have to make happen. Slalom skis are designed so the tail will smear while turning, and ski tuning is largely about adjusting this smear to optimize it for your technique and water.

 

There is a risk that this discussion may mislead some readers into thinking they need to go out and force the ski to smear more around turns. You don't consciously smear a water ski like you can a snow ski. Smear happens naturally with good technique which includes riding the ski in a solid central to forward stance through the pre-turn and turn. Trying to turn with your weight too far forward or too far back on the ski, or trying to force the tail to smear/drift around turns will just undermine the ski's precisely designed and tuned smearing characteristics.

[gator1]

@skijay: not me. I think its a cool crossover use of a term that's never been applied to waterskiing in this context (that I've heard anyway). I agree its only a part of the good technique required to run the course.

 

I am curious though if @chrisrossi thinks of it as an indicator that all else has gone well, or as a conscious move that he needs to make. Or if he's just so damn good he's trying to describe to us mortals what something we'll never achieve feels like.

[ToddL]

@SkiJay I think you are correct that smear is a result not really a technique to be forced. I would suspect that attempts to force smear (by overly being forward) might look a lot like popping a fin loose in the turn from being too far forward...

[mwetskier]

@gator1 -with all due respect i dont pretend to be a great skier on snow or water but my brother is pretty good at both especially snow. i had asked him about smear a while ago and he told what i wrote here that you say nope i'm wrong about that. so i asked him again today and he sent me this link - http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/powder-day-what-is-a-smear

no doubt you know more about snow skiing then i do and you might even know more about it then ski mag does to but heres what they say about smear -

' ' You can drift past that rock, say, without dumping much speed or throwing in an extra turn, smearing the snow with your skis the way a knife smears butter on bread. When you’ve cleared the obstacle, then you’re ready to set an edge, let the snow bend your ski into an arc, and finish your turn ' '

so thats a direct cut and paste and unless i'm reading it wrong they seam to think you dont scrub much speed when you smear.

[gator1]

@mwetskier: I'm not sure I'm due any respect, as this is the internet, but you are correct, I do know a lot more about snow skiing than you.

 

Go read my original post. You'll find "as we scrub just enough speed to make the eventual edged turn".

 

Sounds pretty much exactly like your quote from SKI "Drift past that rock without dumping much speed...............when you've cleared the obstacle, then you're ready to set an edge,...."

 

You can argue the semantics of "scrub just enough speed" vs "without dumping much speed". But you can't argue it with me.

[mwetskier]

@gator1 -i'm sure neither of us knows any where near as much about water skiing as Rossi so i would defer to him to discuss the meaning of smear in that sport. but in your post that i responded to you wrote about smear in deep powder snow skiing -

 

' ' The effect is to change direction while scrubbing quite a bit of speed ' '

 

that's where my understanding conflicts with yours and i am pretty sure the speed scrubbing in powder snow happens when you crank the turn at the end of the smear not during it. ski mag seams to agree with me on that but again you may know about snow skiing then they do. i guess we need to ask Rossi to explain if the goal or effect of smear on water is to scrub speed. i dont think it is but then i'm also willing to consider i could be wrong as you keep saying.

[gator1]

@mwetskier: Title of this thread "Ask Rossi". Not "Make Rossi referee a couple of noobs having a semantics debate".

 

I fear we've already derailed the thread into something I'd avoid like the plague if I were Chris. So, I'm signing off.

[mwetskier]

not interested in a ' ' semantics debate ' ' that was all your thing. I mostly want to know in more detail what Rossi means by smear and if the idea is that it helps preserve speed as I believe or if its purpose is to scrub speed as you contend. dont care whose right only want to know what the right answer is.

[rawly]

Should I go and get my popcorn and enjoy this bickering about terms ? You out there @Horton ? It must be that winter thing. We don't want to scare Rossi away on the first two questions.

[gator1]

@rawly: Nope. No need for popcorn. Like I said, show's over.

[jimbrake]

[mwetskier]

well like on most forums two guys disagreeing on something always gets blown out of proportion by the bystanders. gator and i are in complete agreement on one thing we know at least one wrong answer. also i think we agree we both just want to know for sure what the right one is.

never heard the term smear applied to water skiing before and i think the only person here who knows what rossi means by it is rossi so thats who i'd prefer to hear it from. but instead of risking the chance of learning some thing new lets all just clown on it instead.

the very best out come would be to learn exactly what he means by it and i was right. the second very best out come would be to learn what he means by it and i was wrong. so if i learn what it means then theres no down side in my opinion.

[Murrski]

Simple concept for a public forum. Be respectful. Agree to disagree. Move on. I hope the tone of this debate is over!

[skier2788]

@jimbrake I wish I could give more than one awesome for that.

[Wish]

And I gotta Panda for tossing out the SFE question..?... Actuarially it's my first so kinda feeling like part of Club Panda .. But wouldn't it be interesting if that SFE thing was designed to aid the smear. And I agree that it's not an intentional action but rather an outcome. I "tried" to do it last time I was out. No Bueno.

[Gloersen]

Personally –

1.) I don’t see how any of you guys can think about this stuff on the water given 1.3 secs from centerline to apex; that’s not enough time to say WTF!

2.) Getting smeared out there is easy.

3.) What Rini has told me (in general terms); stay in the lean properly and the edge transition will occur as it is supposed to. To reiterate @Skijay; so will the smear.

4.) Never thought snow and balls mixed too well anyway.

5.) Winter stinks!

[jimbrake]

I'm here all week. Try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Horton]

This went is exactly why most pro level skier stay away from forms. I am going to ask Rossi for some closing comments and am going to close this thread.

 

If you can't wait for that why not re-read the original post and you will be reminded of how far off the core topic you are. At worst read what @SkiJay said.

[Chris Rossi]

I'm just sharing what goes through my head and using terminology that resonates with me. @SkiJay did a very good job of summing things up. I think the thing to take away here is that we need to get the ski rotated earlier in the pre turn and we all can do things to better accomplish this. I look forward to the next round of questions.

[Horton]

Thank you @chrisrossi

[SkiJay]

You're a class act @ChrisRossi. Thank you for hanging in here with us. I'm certain that this forum's sizable silent majority is deeply grateful for your efforts.

[gator1]

@horton @chrisrossi. That sucked. My apologies. Temporary Self ban in 3. 2. 1

[ForrestGump]

OK back on track. One thought I had is that to be able to get the ski rotated sooner, you've got to get it to the buoy line sooner. Am I off base here, @chrisrossi?

[markchilcutt]

Thanks @chrisrossi for all the helpful insight!!!

[Chris Rossi]

@ShaneH I believe this to be false. The handle path as @Than_Bogan has described is set by the rope length. The shorter the rope, the later we are able to cross the buoy line and the smaller window we have to make a turn. The ski rotation must already be happening before buoy line, which in my world should also be done with two hands on the handle. The more the gap between the optimal handle path and the typical "get as early as possible to the buoy" path, the earlier the skier is forced to release the outside hand (or get ripped narrow) and the less the ski can be rotated.

 

To answer the set up question, every ski is designed differently, so the fin set ups to accomplish this will vary. Shallowing the fin does help to release the tail to smear, skid, rotate, or however you want to describe the notion. Be careful though as there are consequences to every fin change. And while shallowing the fin may help the ski to its desired effect, if the skier is not utilizing the correct techniques, it will lead to poor results. As always, fix your approach/technique before touching your ski.

 

I'm going to sign off on this topic. Feel free to continue the discussion in a positive manner, but please hold your questions for me until the next chapter of "Ask Rossi" which will come soon.