New slalom rule up for vote

[Kelvin]

@6balls. You can do that now in every record tournament except Nationals and Class R. 2 judges in each tower and the boat judge. The 2 tower judges at the gate plus the boat judge call the gate. Majority rules. No video required.

 

Class R and nationals require video gates.

[skiray]

Let the boat judge call it. If he can't tell ask the skier....

[6balls]

Not a fan of the vid review...are the competitors in those events generally in favor or not in favor? I don't understand how it slows the events. If video came from those two "gate" towers review could be taking place while the pass is completed with an answer ready by the time the skier sinks into the water. One video judge for each feed and runs in slo-mo.

[klindy]

@6balls Generally speaking the actual review is pretty quick - either they made the gate or not. Of course there are exceptions which take longer if someone doesn't or can't make a decision but that's a different issue. The time burner is almost always trying to find the video on the DVR, VCR, or whatever. The equipment on the site is generally different from the last one and it's a rare case when someone actually practices going back 30 seconds or so to find the entrance gate.

 

I'm not making excuses but that's typically what happens. Rushing things almost always makes it worse. Splash-Eye solves that problem with an "auto" review in half speed as soon as the pass is over. But there are only a few of these systems in use.

[ToddL]

Also, the judges have to look at a gate via the gate camera's monitor, then immediately move there eyes elsewhere to observe 1-ball and the rest of the pass, then go back to assess the gate if it wasn't obviously good in real time.

 

Heres the issue... What happens is that judges get in the habit of not really assessing the gates in real time and become completely dependent upon making their gate call via the review. This actually slows judging down.

 

I think in an ideal situation, the judges would sit in the gate towers and have monitors there of all cameras. The nearest judge(s) to the entrance gate would assess the gate in real time visually (not using the cameras). The farthest judge(s) would observe the gate via the real-time video feed. Then all judges would continue to observe the pass visually in real time (or via using the cameras). The judges would call the pass as good if the gates and all turns were obviously valid. Only if there was a questionable element would the judges hold their call until after a video review. Thus, the judges call their score before the video review when it pass was clearly viable. This eliminates the risk of not getting video or technical difficulties from preventing the judges from calling a valid pass when it was clearly visible to them via direct line of sight.

 

The video system operator (which in my opinion shouldn't be one of the judges) would automatically start the replay for a consistent process. However, the judges would not hold the skier for any technical difficulties unless there was a questionable element which required the judges to review the pass. Even when there is a questionable element, the judges must be limited to an allowed timeframe for a review. When that expires, they must make a call. Also, their call should be stated as: the skier clearly missed the gates, or clearly missed 1-ball, etc. if they cannot make a statement of "clearly missed", then their ruling must be it was good.

 

That's how I think it should be handled.

[A_B]

We have all debated the value or lack thereof in being "too early" for the gate vs. "too late", and as long as it is so close that the naked (I just viewed the MS Loves Winter thread again) eye can't tell whether it was missed or not, then it should go to the skier and move on. Seems to me we are "rallying around the decimal point" on this, when being a couple inches right of the buoy is not discernible nor a huge advantage. A clear miss is a miss, anything else is good.

[MattP]

@OB exactly how it should be at every event.

[Razorskier1]

Hmmm. I can tell you I've been to plenty of class C tournaments where novices are given "the benefit of the doubt" on the gates so that they can enjoy the tournament. It isn't like they are setting world records after all. As a fan of skiing I find it more frustrating when one of the top pro competitors gets knocked out because they miss a gate at -35 or something. Selfishly I'd like it if we let them keep skiing so I could watch. Realistically, however, I think it is just the way it goes.

 

If you run a C tournament just run it with the built in mulligan for novices so they aren't discouraged. If you are a tournament regular or a pro, then you gotta hit the gates.

[A_B]

I have missed one gate, and it was reeeaaal close, and it was on an opener like 20 years ago. The driver leaned over as he was passing by and said, "the Tower says you need to clean up your gate", I nodded and that was that..

[klindy]

@AB Playing the devils advocate here, I have been to tournaments where the gate buoy was pulled down so tight that it disappeared from the time the boat wash buried it until well after the skier passed on many passes. The "naked eye" couldn't spot it in real time. However a slo-mo replay you could pick up enough of the buoy to make a call.

 

Many times I've seen a mark or small piece of tape placed on the monitor to "mark" the location of the buoy. Sometimes that becomes the de facto location of the buoy. If it's properly anchored a buoy will push "out" away from the centerline effectively giving the skier a little more room.

 

Rule 8.09 D says to use an elastic device or counter-weight to "allow the buoy to rise and fall" as the boat passes or of the skier hits the buoy. Over inflated buoys or too short elastic cords restrict the movement quite a bit.

 

Ultimately the goal is to put the right skier on the podium. To give the skier the correct score (neither advantage or disadvantage anyone unfairly). I completely agree that at times we go overboard with the process but it's important to make the right call.

 

Again, far more than not the biggest challenge is finding the right snippet of video to review. 99.99% of the timeout judges can get it right on real time without a review. Those times when a skier purposely or inadvertently cuts it so close to make it questionable sometimes takes a bit to sort it out.

[klindy]

Incidentally, part of the rationale for the rule change proposal is that this is exactly what the World Cup stops put on place for sites that are rough. World Cup stops = elite skiers.

 

In addition it's assumed that the beginning skier would benefit most from this change.

[6balls]

The tower 1, boat, tower 2 call the balls. The video tower 1 and video tower 1.5 (the other with gate view opposite side of lake) have no responsibility but for the gates. They view a very short video in slo-mo as the skier continues to ski with the others judging the buoys. By the time the pass is over, the gate is good or not.

 

In class C...all for the benefit of skier unless obviously blew it.

[scesnauskas]

The gates are a hazard. Then at regionals this year at 35 off my second pass the tower judge took my gates after a full pass. I still don't know why in a tournament like that there no camera's? Running up the line it gets harder to see if you've gone through or not. Glare, chop, tides (Moomba)all make it hard to see being a judge. This summer we removed the gates for a week and tried skiing and it was difficult, but safe. No matter what, it's about safety in and out the end gates. Some of our best friends have been injured and one of them died. I support Gordo.... Get rid of them!

[ToddL]

So, after letting the proposed changes above simmer a bit, I think 1.15 & 10.08D2c are great additions.

Tie goes to the runner / if you can't clearly cut em, then they are good - yes.

Only 1 review with boat judge as the final backup to call the gates - yes.

 

 

There are two more that we need to add to this... 1) time limit for review to occur & 2) "ruling on the field" before review.

 

Still no matter what, stuff happens - someone rewound too much, doesn't know how to operate the player, can't find the right skier's pass in the video, or can't find the start of the right pass, etc.

 

If the judges are required to make a ruling before the review, and if there is a time limit, then we won't have any skiers waiting on gate calls. When the inevitable techology/user error event happens, there will be a protocol which has established a ruling on the field with boat judge as final backup. So, that becomes the gate call. Move on. Next pass, here we go. Done.

[skierjp]

Just for clarification, the Tower never takes your gates, you missed your gates.

[Kelvin]

@scesnauskas Gate cameras are only required for Class R tournaments, the US Nationals, or other record tournaments where the 5 judge setup with 2 judges on each tower are not used. For the LOC and the TCs involved in a tournament, it takes significant effort and expense to put on an event like regionals. From the hosts perspective, why should they do any more that what is required?

[eleeski]

@skierjp If judging were perfect, this wouldn't be an issue. Things that address uncertainties need to be in place.

Not every missed gate is taken, not every taken gate is missed. Hopefully the most skilled skier is the winner - regardless of imperfections in judging.

 

I judged with Splasheye at Nationals. What worked best for me was to watch real time the whole course then check the gate video. Splasheye made that easy. The couple of close calls that needed an extra view were easy to get the replay from Splasheye. Nobody waited longer than the normal setdown. Video can work well.

 

The Imperial R had conventional towers with a slightly more challenging video review - but the real view was better so I only needed one video look. We still didn't leave anyone in the water longer than normal.

 

Eric

[LeonL]

Call me old school or a relic, but for REL, I strongly favor the 5 judge setup and forget the cameras.

[ForrestGump]

I'm with you @LeonL . Honestly, the delays started cropping up when sites started going to video. When they were doing 3 or 5 judge setups, things ran pretty smoothly. I know it's a requirement of R, but there is a trickle down factor. Sites that have invested in the requirements for R are tending to use that arrangement for even their C tournaments.

[ecstaski]

As a judge who has been faced with that call many times, I feel that we put far too much emphasis on the gates - if you were close enough to run over the ball to make it a judgement call, who cares! Hitting the gate ball does the skier more harm that good. I've seen a skier's fin clip the gate ball in the air followed by a fantastic yard sale. If in doubt the the skier should just be given the benefit. Let's worry about finding a better way to track the skier's balls with a good camera/video system that gives the judges a clear view of the real action.

[Than_Bogan]

I think 1.15 (codifying that skier gets benefit of doubt) is really the key.

 

I get the idea that if somebody sets a record, then we should look back at the video and be confident that everything was right. So keep that video rolling at R events. Study it closely after the fact if a record is set.

 

But otherwise, close call to the skier and move on. No need to do reviews -- if your instinct is that you'd like to review it, then it's obviously in doubt and so see (new) rule 1.15!

 

It's never actually happened to me, but spending time reviewing my gates would be a complete waste of everyone's time. I'm setting no records, no money is on the line, and nobody is going to remember what score I ran, even if I win (which theoretically I could at say Regionals, although that would require a small miracle).

[Dusty]

Technology is like clutter- it reproduces somehow to fill any available space. The 'trickle down' from R's will be much more than that soon enough. Someone will have to buy, install, maintain and train the officials at every site, at every tournament. I suspect we ought to be ready to start paying maybe $120+ per head to enter a three round "C" slalom tournament. Not going to be so family friendly when mom, pop and two kids need $500 for entry fees... missing gates is going to be pricey entertainment!

[ToddL]

Maybe there should be a rule which blocks/prevents trickle down to C as the norm.

[skierjp]

You guys do know that you can have a F class ( tournament) for skiers that might be new to the sport. Palm Bay in Florida use to start all their tournaments as F. They usually have 4 or 5 skiers in that division. This gives the tech controller time to set up for the E,L,R event

In F you are guareenteed 4 passes but even in this division if you miss the gates you score 0 but you get to finish your 4 passes.

[Dusty]

Am in favor of "F" classes and getting new skiers involved- and until late, have gone out of my way to greet and mentor potential skiers as participating officials. My issue with some of the rule changes and technology type solutions, is that it adds complexity for little added benefit- and complexity increases costs, and tends to discourage new people.

But... Q.- Maybe my sampling is in error- going back to say 2000, are Regional and National skier entries going up, down, or steady? i.e., In 1996, Western Regionals had over 120 M3 slalom skiers- most of them are (M5?) now. I didn't see 120 M3 (or M5) skiers at the most recent (2012) I attended. I know there are other factors--- just wondering...

[klindy]

For what it's worth, this passed...for Class C and lower tournaments. Class E (national record level tournament) still requires gates on both ends of all passes. Recall that Class L/R are governed by IWWF which this rule would not apply anyway.

[klindy]

For what it's worth, this passed...for Class C and lower tournaments. Class E (national record level tournament) still requires gates on both ends of all passes. Recall that Class L/R are governed by IWWF which this rule would not apply anyway.

[Jody_Seal]

Keith did anyone talk about how this would effect things like... Rankings list?

 

So skier A misses gate on opening pass in a class C tournament, and under new rule runs two more consecutive passes and runs three on last pass. skier B runs Three consecutive passes and three on the last pass in a E or R&L . Is it the Same??

 

As per our "All Mighty" Rankings list their is no distinction between C and REL.

[klindy]

There was discussion about that issue. And yes, in the scenario you described the score in the scorebook and on the ranking list will be the same. Another concern was a record that happened to be set when the skier missed their first gate, etc. legitimate. Making this applicable only in class C eliminates that potential.

 

In my opinion, the most similar situation to this we currently have is a slow time on a complete pass. The skier has an option to go up to the next pass (and even opt up if they want) and ski "at risk" pending the next pass. Granted with ZO were not likely to see slow times anymore but we've all experienced them at one time or another and no one questioned those scores or records.

 

One big difference is that with a slow time you're given the score on the next pass (assuming it's not 6) as your score on the proceeding pass. For this "missed first gate rule" if you miss you're second pass you still score zero.

[Horton]

@klindy

Ok I am confused. What exactly is the new rule?

[klindy]

At a class C tournament (or below technically) a skier can miss the start gate on their opening pass and successfully complete the rest of the pass and continue (faster speed or shorter rope or opt up). If the skier makes the next pass ( both gates and six buoys) the skier is credited with both passes (and any skipped passes in between the first and second). If the skier misses the second pass the score is zero.

 

I'll post the exact language later unless someone else beats me to it.

[Horton]

I guess at some point the rules committee was going to earn a panda. This rule deserves it for sure.

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

[MattP]

@horton I can't believe @skimom is apart of a panda! She is a saint!

[Horton]

@MattP I called her and told her. She was like ...

 

[klindy]

Haha....

 

I'd like to know the reason you really feel this is "Panda worthy". I have my idea but I'd like to hear others.

[ForrestGump]

We should just make the buoys optional. And give everybody trophies.

[Horton]

@ShaneH I love you man

[Jody_Seal]

Good God!!! We can miss the gate but lord don't let the boat run 17.00 That is just not fair to the rest of the division!!!

The Oxymoronic Idealism in this sport is just crazy.

 

@Horton. Funny stuff ! But I ski more Record tournaments then C, I get confused to easy! So I will just continue practicing my gates!

[scuppers]

One thing for sure -GUARANTEED - It will NOT make the difference in encouraging more beginners/newbe's what ever, to sign up and compete in tournaments.

[klindy]

@scuppers why not?

 

[scuppers]

@klindy - It's not the gates that keeps entrants away - it's the over all cost, the travel, the all day commitment (sometimes all weekend commitment), the practice, etc- but most of all slalom is just damn hard and the trend these days for the masses and youth, is away from difficult things where results (success or failure) is measureable and immediate.

[ral]

I agree with @scuppers. IMHO, neither the gates nor ZO have a big impact on the number of skiers. It does have a big impact among the old fart whiners, though...

[ToddL]

I agree with @scuppers in that this is not about encouraging new skiers.

 

New skiers - first time competitors - they need to be able to "try" competing in a F/GR sanction where they pay less than $35 and get at least 8 passes through the course within a 2 hour window.

 

That's why we do our F/GR events in between C Rd1 and C Rd2. They show up mid/late morning, watch a few Class C skiers, then do their events. We do the F/GR rounds back to back. Each round the skiers get a minimum of 4 passes, but only the original score + muligan score are captured (any additional passes to get to 4 are "free" unscored rides). Once their F/GR Rd 2 is over, we quickly tally local trophies & award them. Then the skiers can hang out and watch more Class C or head home. We charge $25 for this and sanction as a clinic which allows the skiers to use $7/day pass. So, total cost is $32 for 8 guaranteed passes in a competitive setting. Seems to work!

[scuppers]

@ToddL Yea, now that's how to get'em hooked! And you still won't get all of them but your chances are much greater. Just common sense really.

[Jody_Seal]

Talking to many skiers in this sport everyday I can say for a fact that less then 10% of AWSA membership knew anything about proposed rule changes such as this. I would think that in today's massive information age survey's and informational packets would be e-mailed to the membership body with rational and input before the board rules on them.

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal all the rule change proposals had been discussed and either supported or not supported by each region. Each region has had a recent mid-winter meeting where they were all on the agenda. Prior to that the rules committee has, at least, two members from each region.

 

At least in the SC region a quorum must be present for any action to take place. Those with a vote include someone from each club in the region (granted not every club was present but we did have a quorum).

 

Perhap most important is every rule change proposal came from the membership of AWSA.

 

I'm generally not a fan of constant rules changes and I'm certainly not an advocate of change just for changes sake. Likewise there were several proposals which were approved that I do not agree with AND I freely and frequently voiced my opinion.

 

There may be room for improvement in the communication process but to suggest that no one knew about it is disingenuous.

[Jody_Seal]

@Klindy

I know how it works! however unlike many other sports our organization refuses to go out and notify or send this type of information to their membership. Why were these new rule proposals not in the last Waterskier Magazine that every AWSA member Get's? Yea I know it is available on line just like getting membership to attend their respected state, regional and national meetings.

Typical of this organization fix something that is not broke yet patronize a minority with in the membership!

The American Powerboat Association is very similar to our own in regards to sport divisions. Every year months before their winter meeting each race division provides to the semi monthly APBA publication proposed rule changes for their respected divisions and every member gets the publication and yes this information is on line also!!!

 

 

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal Fair enough, I understand what you mean.

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal

 

Do you think it would help if there were some sort of website devoted to slalom skiers? Sounds like a crazy idea I know.

[Jody_Seal]

@Horton

 

Maybe! How about some semi inside information. A Web site devoted to the "new" Sport division! T.I.T.S.... Tubing in Tournaments!!! I am sure one of the Regional Directors that frequent this web site can highlight this one! :)