Putting Aluminum parts in a Ford 351W (Supra Comp)

[ThePantsManCan]

I've taken a fair bit of time this winter to contemplate the Pros and Cons of either buying a new (used) boat with Perfect Pass Stargazer, or taking weight out of my 86 Supra Comp TS6m and adding the speed control.

 

I've decided, that I won't make enough money between now and April to acquire a new boat, and I know that I want the Speed control to be installed in my existing boat long before the start of my season. I dont want to start another season without a speed control as standard and hand driving is over for me. Also, If I take out weight, I already know how greatly it affects my slalom wake, it's VERY POSITIVE I can tell you that!

 

So here is my hang up. I've read about some folks replacing parts on the engine to reduce weight and have put together a list of changes I will consider making. Here goes:

 

First Consider that this is a stock Ford 351W

 

Replace Exhaust Manifolds with Aluminum Manifold (this has been HARD to find!) any insight here?

Replace Intake Manifold with Aluminum Intake

Replace Heads with Aluminum Heads (maybe)

 

It seems the engine mods would be easier to do if it was a Small Block Chevy...

 

Boat Mods:

(I Already pulled the rear seat)

Some flooring needs to be replaced (I will replace with lightweight composite flooring if not too expensive)

Replace the trunk Lid with Something lighter

Lightweight Battery? Does that exist?

Move Gas Tank Forward?

Mount a fuel Cell up Front?

 

 

I get that this will be a bunch of money anyway, I'm guessing in the 4k range... But I can live with that. Regardless, it will not be anywhere near 12-18k for a used boat.

 

Suggestings? @DW, @Jody Seal

 

 

 

[Phil2360]

Considered adding a bit of a hook on the hull near the transom?

Can lift the rear a bit & also change things onnsiderably.

 

[ForrestGump]

You're not going to find aluminum manifolds. Kodiak used to make some but they've been out of business for a long time. A set of heads and intake would be an easy upgrade, though. That said, were it me I wouldn't spend that kind of money on that boat. I'd do the speed control and stick the remainder in the bank for when you're ready to buy another boat. Mainly because you will never get the investment in the upgrades out of the Supra when you go to sell it, so it's essentially throwing that money away.

[ThePantsManCan]

@phil2360, I have played with the wakeplate that comes standard on these boats. No need to add hook as far as I an see because of this feature. What I do plan on doing, if I keep the boat, is to add a hinge and Lenco Trim Tab Actuators. I would LOVE to be able adjust n the fly.

 

 

@ShaneH, I agree with your comment, although, I may still pursue my project just the same. The reason for this is that I have seen the increase in my performance when we were running without a third person in the boat and AFTER we took out the rear seat. After that, the 22 off wake is like long line and 28 off is like the 15 off wake when we remove all that weight. I would love to have that same performance level while still having the legally required third person/observer. So, that being said, I do want be sure to respect all suggestions offered to me, but the reason for this project is to improve as a skier, no to own a newer badder boat. Please keep the recommendations coming!

 

All that said, I did actually find a set of exhaust manifolds that are used, but yes there are certainly NO new ones I can get my hands on. Any suggestions on stock replacement Aluminum Heads?

[Wish]

I owned an 87 Ts6m for 12 yrs. If the floor is soft at all, go after that first. I guaranty that adds weight as it WILL be wet underneath. Also, Supra sprayed foam between the stringers. That will get heavy when wet as well. And the foam will hold up the damaged floor which makes for more bad floor then you think. I replaced my floor with lighter composite floor and allowed foam to dry completely before hand. This lightened the boat a great deal and as an unexpected bonus reduced noise and vibration dramatically. The Supra's rap the boats glass sides all the way to the floor. So basically a double wall construction. Tie the new flooring into this system. The strength you will gain is insane. It can be felt in the way the boat drives. The whole thing will feel stiff, ridged and 10 times more solid. My back seat was removed. New lighter composite trunk lid. Anything beyond that, your kinda wasting you money and a TON OF SKI TIME. If you are a shortline skier, 28 and beyond, there is no reason to change the wake. It's on par with late 90s and early 2000+ boats. It will be impossible to get rid of the 15 and 22 bumps. Mine did and yours should have a manually adjustable wake plate. That can move the bumps out of the way. Although the Supra had way less of a bump then any other boat of it's time.

 

So do the floor, back seat, trunk lid and leave the rest. What @ShaneH said.

 

You have a boat that has wonderful modern lines compared to anything of that era and the next. You have a boat with killer shortline wakes no spray. You have a boat that tracks like it's on rails. You have a boat that turns like the best sports car imaginable. You have a boat that surpassed build quality of any in it's time and they priced it accordingly. Supra was literally a full decade ahead in every conceivable manner then anything else on the market.

 

I'd list all the firsts that Supra had but there's just to many. Let's just say it was heavily copied over the yrs.

 

I ran PP classic on mine and it was fantastic.

 

Save your cash. You will need it. You would have to make a $4000-$5000+ jump to a SN 1997-newer or a MC 92-newer or a Bu models late 90s to even come close to the performance of the Ts6m. Waterski mag did an article on THE best used boats to own. There was literally only a handful. Supra Ts6m was one of them. And THE ONLY one pre-dating the mid 90s. Was fun to see that article knowing that's what I owned. The next boat listed was SN 1997 and that's what I have now.

[Waternut]

As someone who heavily modifies everything I own, I feel qualified to recommend some of the most successful mods I did to my 86 direct drive boat.

 

1. Abandon the weight savings plans unless you're carrying bricks or something. Gas weighs about 6lbs per gallon so if you have a 40 gallon tank, don't fill it up if you're only going to be on the lake for an hour. You'll end up causing problems that will make boating/skiing less fun if you put a lightweight battery in and get stranded every other week because it's dead. Instead buy a hydraulic wakeplate to improve your wake. I bought the Bennett X-18 wakeplate and it made a rather crappy wake feel very close to a 99 closed bow Ski Nautique. It really does make a difference and you can even tune it to eliminate "bumps" at certain line lengths if necessary. I've asked many skiers to try out the wake with the wakeplate all the way up and after one crossing they all want the wakeplate back down. Here is a post I made showing some pics of my wake with the wakeplate installed. http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=848088&postcount=69

 

2. Make sure your engine is healthy. If not, fix that first. If it is healthy, get a set of GT40p heads and an aftermarket intake manifold. That should help out in the power department if you're lacking. The GT40p heads came on a variety of Ford's in the 90's and most car guys don't want them because they have fitment issues with the spark plugs and standard automotive headers. This is good news for us boat guys since the GT40p heads are slightly better than the GT40 heads and will actually be cheaper and easy to get a hold of a decent set.

 

3. Get yourself a new machined prop to replace your old forged prop if you haven't already. Massive improvement in hole shot and I didn't lose any top end (not that I really care though).

 

4. Don't touch your floor unless it's rotting and you don't think it'll last another summer before stepping through it. You won't save much weight if everything is in good shape and it will be extremely time consuming and expensive.

[Wish]

@Waternut and I posted close to the same time soooo. Yours should have that wake plate, if not, get one cause he is correct. I also agree with the prop and had a 4 blade stainless on mine (forgot about that). HUUUGE difference. It added both low end torque and a mile or two added at the top end.

 

I do not agree with the floor because you WILL NOT fall/step through it. The rigid sprayed foam between the stringers wont allow it and can actually support a persons weight all in it's own. If there IS a soft spot it is because the foam and floor are wet. Foam gets squishy when wet and those are the spots you will feel. But when the carpet comes off you will most likely find more that was just help up by the foam.

 

Supra's were a couple hundred pounds lighter them most anything out there. So power to weight ratio plus hull design makes them quite adequate in the towing department. But the prop will help greatly.

[Zman]

I was also a 1987 Supra Comp ts6m owner, and a few other Supra's as well. Definitely some good advice from @Wish and @ShaneH

I can add that increasing HP has limited help with a Supra. It might help the boat be more solid at your slalom speeds, but will not add any top end. The design of the Supra hull in those days was the more your pushed the boat, the more it drives the front V into the water, creating more drag.

Like @Wish noted, the foam under your rotting floor is very likely wet and holding up a lot of water which often leaks in around the exhaust pipes and into that space between the stringers and the sides of the boat. If your are going to replace the floor with a lighter weight material, get started soon so you can give the foam plenty of time to dry out. Then be sure the exhaust pipes are sealed very good where they go through the transom (on inside and outside).

Also, check the lag bolts that hold your swim deck brackets to the transom. If these have not been replaced with bolts going through the transom and through a backing plate on the inside yet, you are due. Very common for the wood to weaken and the lag bolts pull out. Mine did while I was standing on the swim deck. That was over 20 years ago.

The 22 bump definitely makes you keep your ski on edge, but after that the wake should be pretty good if you have the wake plate adjustment set right.

[Waternut]

If the foam is already waterlogged it's not going to dry out. It will have to be removed and there's a lot of it so you might as well grab a shovel. This is why I say if you're not stepping through the floor (aka it's not super soft), leave it be because it's a big job.

 

I've defoamed/refoamed a fair number of jetski's in my day and I've never used a 2 part foam that doesn't absorb water. They all say they're closed cell foam and claim that water won't be absorbed but it's all crap IMO. I submerged a piece of closed cell US Composites foam in water for a single night as a test and it weighed twice as much the next day. The good news is, there are a couple ways to cut down on water absorption though. In my stand up jetski's where impact on the floor area was severe, I ran polystyrene foam (the blue and pink foam sheets from lowes and home depot) in every nook and cranny I could get it in. Polystyrene is a true closed cell foam and does not absorb water even when submerged for long periods of time. When about 95% of the cavity was filled with polystyrene, I used the 2 part foam to just tie it all together and fill minor voids giving a rigid backing beneath the floor.

 

I'll take flak and thumbs down for this I'm sure because most people are not open to this idea but here goes... The other option for replacing foam is to not use it at all. Although it's not for everyone and if you're worried about sinking your boat, you should stay away. However, with proper reinforcing, sealing, and drain plugs (just in case), a foamless boat is lighter and you'll never have to worry about waterlogged foam again. A properly sealed air tank will serve the same purpose as foam in displacing water should you figure out a way to swamp your boat.

[ThePantsManCan]

@Wish @Waternut, Wow! So the wake behind my boat could be on par with a 97 Nautique? I guess I could have realized that seeing as how drastic the wake change was when I removed weight, but I've never skied behind a late 90's Nautique.

 

I will make sure to get into the floor as soon as possible. Yes there are some rotten spots, I found them after I removed the rear seat. I sure do have a job ahead of me. The foam HAS to be soaked. I'll be honest though, should I somehow make a bunch of money, new(used) boat here we come!

[Waternut]

Well if the Supra forums don't have pictures and help on how to replace the floor, correctcraftfan.com certainly does. Granted a lot of those guys do things for nostalgic purposes rather than functionality but at least it will give you an idea of what lies ahead.

[ThePantsManCan]

The are other forums besides BOS?

[DW]

@thepantsmancan: I basically did the project you are thinking of embarking on (different boat), I have managed to pull out 300# via the aluminum route, parts removal, panel lightening and the tank move. The improvement to the wake has been awesome. The CG of my boat is now ~ 1' forward from original location. Weigh all your parts to get an idea of where you can make improvements, you will be surprised at what you can accomplish. Some hull changes can also contribute to an improved wake.

 

To your parts and questions: Yes, a SBC is much easier to do, so you will be digging to get some of the parts. You might try the boat racer crowd as there are several, particularly the vintage racers, that still use the 351 Ford. You might need to hit some boat shows or swap meets to get the needed parts. Hardin, Eddie Marine, CP Performance, IMCO, Kodiak all made exhaust manifolds. Hit the local magazine rack and get one of the off shore boat rags and go through the suppliers, they will be a big help with a harder to mod Ford, mags like Hot Boat, etc. Lightweight batteries do exist, I just started to look in to that, the drag racers use a battery in the 10-15# range which is 30+# lighter than the standard one. I have not quite gotten how reliable or how reliable they would actually be. Simply google the topic and you will get to a site. If you do go the aluminum route, make sure you incorporate a zinc anode for corrosion protection.

[Wish]

@ThePantsManCan it wasn't until I skied behind a 97SN in 1997 that I realized there is a better enough wake to upgrade. I don't think you will get as good of a wake as the 97. It holds its own against current boats IMHO when it comes to wakes, long or short line. But for the price you probably payed for that Ts6m, you as close as you can get. My foam did dry. Left it in the sun. But agree it's not the best solution for design. I don't thing they foamed them for float characteristics as much as sound and vibration dampening.

[foxriverat]

There are tons of posts and pictures on the supra forum about floor and stringer repair. 1992 supra started changing over to composite stringers in some boats. Rounded windshield composite. Squared off windshield wood. Lot of people report water got in under rub rail and seals around exhaust at transom.

[eleeski]

While I am a weight fanatic, be careful of mixing aluminum and steel in the motor. The water in my lake eats aluminum. Putting it next to steel with my water will make galvanic corrosion go crazy. I would need a fresh water cooling system to make that work and I'm not sure the net weight savings would help. Go aluminum block and heads and it's worth it weight wise.

 

Fix the waterlogged floor for sure. Styrofoam is fine with epoxy but will get eaten by polyester resin so beware of your foam resin choice.

 

Don't mess with the fuel tank - just run it low and carry lots of fivers.

 

PP Classic is such an improvement over hand driving that you need to do that no matter what. But if you have engine issues, a full engine swap to ZO would be cool. All aluminum ZO would be fantastic.

 

Doing all these mods would give you a great boat. Financially stupid but cool.

 

When is the ZO V6 going to happen?

 

Eric

[Wayne]

Since the battery question has popped up I'll speak up. I run a light weight Odyssey 680 in my mustang that is strictly for autocross duty. I tried the next size down but it was scary at times starting it at a location that had no AC power to charge it. The 680 I'm more comfortable with but when the car is sitting the battery is on a charger all the time. Not really the situation I want for my boat.

 

Regarding weight savings the 680 is a touch over 15 pounds which is about half of the blue top Optima. In my mind I would rather have a big lead acid with plenty of reserve for something that floats. For me the practicality out weighs the weight.

[ForrestGump]

I used the Odyssey in my drag car. I had to keep it on a charger all the time, otherwise it wouldn't have the reserve when things got hot. There's no way I'd use a lightweight battery in a marine environment.

[Waternut]

I've used lithium iron (not lithium ion) in my jetski's to shave weight. They are incredibly powerful and very lightweight but also very expensive and don't last as long. They also have to be charged before every outing. They are safer and won't explode like lithium ion if they're punctured or overloaded. Saving 13 lbs when the whole package weighs 250lbs can be worth the hassle. Saving 20-30lbs when you've got a 3500lb boat plus another couple hundred in fuel just seems silly. The biggest lithium iron battery I know of is the Shorai LFX36A3-BS12. It has 540 cold cranking amps, 36 equivalent amp/hours, and only weighs 5 lbs....the kicker is that it costs $330 and you'd want at least 2 of them if you're going to be somewhere that you can't swim back.

[kdeupser]

There's countless aftermarket parts for the 351 windsor. Probably as much for a chevy 350. However, Eric's point would keep me from using aluminum heads. This website www.summitracing.com has a TON of things you can do to that motor. I like the TrickFlow heads, I also like the AFR heads, you also cannot go wrong with the edelbrock heads either. Summit's website has alot more for your motor as well. Very easy motor to work on and add as much power to it as you'd ever want. Shane makes a good point too, your going to start spending good money after bad pretty quickly. That would go for a ford or a chevy.

 

Good Luck,

Ken

[foxriverat]

you could try to sell yours and get a composite one http://bham.craigslist.org/boa/4260771355.html or there was a guy selling this one the end of the season last year. Dont think he ever sold it http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?15341-1997-Comp-Classic-Fuel-Injected-350-in-Chicago

[ThePantsManCan]

Ok, so the lightweight battery is out. I'd love to bolt on some more power with the aluminum heads. But then what fits what fits what?? And if I add aluminum to the motor, how worried do I now need to be about electrolysis/corrosion? How do I add a sacrificial anode? Would I really need to worry much in PA with clean fresh water?

[ThePantsManCan]

Maybe I should borrow a fist full of cash and grab this:

 

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Comp_Boat&postid=26106

[Zman]

@ThePantsManCan If you can pick up that 1998 Supra Comp in @foxriverat post - go for it. Make a crazy offer, who knows. After my ts6m I bought a 98 Supra Legacy, the open bow version of the Comp. I loved that boat, and the wake was excellent. A rooster tail at 22, but nothing difficult.

[ThePantsManCan]

You guys are right. Ive already wasted a bunch of time this morning looking up repair strategies. I'm a sales rep and the more I work the more money I make. Time to shelve this project and go make a ton of coin. All your suggestions have been awesome. I'm still not sure which direction I will be forced to go. Now I'm just perplexed at a Higher Level! Thanks Fellas!

[Jody_Seal]

Got a real nice 06 196 for sale!

[6balls]

The project sounds fun and all...but the more simple solution seems to be pick up a '97 to '00 SN 196 kept well. You would have top notch build quality and top notch wake. I love the look and ski-ability of the old TS6m's, but after your project you still have a franken-boat that really isn't worth much more than before you dumped the money into it. I'd look for a '97-'00 SN196 cared for well and sell the Ts6m.

[ThePantsManCan]

I've got a line on a 1997 Ski Nautique with the GT40 EFI Motor. I'll have to finance, but I'll get the job done. The suggestions on this thread have really helped me. Everyone here has helped me stop, look at the amount of time I would have in the project, and realize that if I just work at my job that much harder, I will have what I want without crouching down in a cramped position for a few weeks replacing parts. My career thanks you!

[ThePantsManCan]

I'll get the new boat by way of partial cash and partial financing. Then I will sell the Ol' Comp and put that money towards that Hawaii Vacation my Wife wants for the 10 year Anniversary!

[Waternut]

Sounds like a good plan. Hope it all works out for ya.

[wilecoyote]

I'm a Supra owner as well, but in my case it's the Rider. First open bow ski boat ever made. I know from everything I've heard, the comp is a great boat. If it was me, I'd be putting PP on it and just doing a bit here and there. I'm a new 15 offer and haven't even completed a full pass yet so obviously my experience isn't of a lot of use here, but, I ski behind a mid 2000s 196 at the club, and my boat when I'm at the cottage. I honestly don't prefer either boat, (other than mine is a lot noisier) as far as wakes go. Maybe when I'm getting into 22 at 34 I'll change my mind. IF the main reason you're doing this is to get a better slalom tug, I wonder if it's worth the money to upgrade to the Nautique. Obviously it's a better boat, and the older Supras do have stringer rot issues, but I would think if you just put PP on it and made sure the stringers under the motor were good you'd be in pretty good shape.

 

Disregard all above advice, I just re read your post a few back and you've already skied behind a boat similar to what you're buying. My bad for posting a few days after reading the thread.

 

 

[ThePantsManCan]

@wilecoyote, No worries at all! I like your perspective. I am basically on the same level as you, but I am into 22 off these days. The rooster gets you at 22 and especially at 28. Buuuuuut, and this is a big BUTT. I HAVE TO have some water in the foam. I've gotta get that out first. When I am running empty, the wake gets pretty good. Remove the rear seat and B.I.N.G.O!! Flattest wake I've ever been on! Its like the hull has a 100 pound threshold, and as soon as you can get that 100 lbs out, all is flat. If the wake would continue to get better every 100 pounds, well I'll be speechless.

 

I am honestly not that worried about the stringers right now. I am going to test them, but I'm pretty confident the boat is solid. The floor is another matter altogether. Its gotta go.

 

In the last few days, I have tried to investigate getting a new boat. One dealer I spoke too said that they didn't have a bank willing to lend on a boat any older than 12 years. Honestly, that flabbergasted me! Sounded lazy to me. If somebody wants to buy something... an you are a sales person, YOU FIND A WAY!!! Is this normal in the boat lending world?

 

Regardless, If/as time goes by, I might be forced to fix up my existing boat anyway. One reason being the wife needs a new car all of the sudden. If I have to keep my boat through next summer, the parts I buy will be purchased to lighten the boat AND they will fit the new boat as well. (when I get it)

 

I am going to try to continue to work like I am saving for a new boat, but when push comes to shove in Late February, I hope to have the cash to go either way. One good thing to come from this though. I wake up in the morning with some serious determination!

 

@eleeski, Although it is financially ridiculous, an all aluminum engine would just be AWESOME!

[DW]

If you go forward with the weight reduction project, and need to prioritize your steps remember that engine weight is very close to the CG and transom weight is out at the end of the teeter totter, thus a more pronounced effect. Basically, 2 things will affect the wake, overall weight and pitch moment. Overall weight will be all the aluminum engine parts and changing the pitch is all the transom weight reduction. Good luck whatever path you take.

[wilecoyote]

@ThePantsManCan, If you're going to pull up the floor, you really should go to the supra forumshttp://www.supraboats.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?6-Service-Repair and look at all the photos and read all the posts. (unless you already have). Everyone has their own ideas on rotten stringers, and there are many ways to skin a cat, but I for one would prefer to just fix the rotten areas, replace the floor and dig out the wet foam. I haven't done any of this on my own boat as I only have access to it on weekends and as long as I can ski behind it I'd rather do that than take it off line to work on it. I'm doing small projects to improve it but nothing like pulling up the floor yet.

 

I don't want to be a killjoy, but I wouldn't be so confident that your stringers are good. If the floor was solid, I'd be with you, but pretty much all of these older boats have stringer rot to some degree or other. I personally don't think it's a big deal to have some stringer rot under the floor as long as the floor is solid and of course the stringers under the motor must be solid or one good bump and the motor drops and breaks the hull at the shaft log. That will sink your boat.

 

I'm with DW. You may want to look at putting a bit of weight in the bow to change the trim and see how she skis. I had 5 people in the Rider once this summer, and I noticed no difference in the wake (I'm skiing at 30mph). All the extra people weight was forward of the CG.

 

Playing with the CG is much easier than loosing weight and just may get better results any ways.

[ForrestGump]

Actually, that's common for normal lending. Over half of marine loans now days go through US Bank. They, and most large marine lenders won't lend over 8 years old. BUT, almost all credit unions will. So check with your local credit unions. Also, the credit union percentage rates are usually much better.

[ThePantsManCan]

@DW, I did a little studying on anode types, and I came to the conclusion that I would need a couple magnesium anodes as I am in fresh water. I see NO seawater, ever. I read that zinc is not active enough to corrode properly in freshwater. Thoughts?

[DW]

Zinc ones have worked just fine for me, 800+ hours & aluminum parts in good condition. Freshwater lake in the Great Lakes area, no salt.

[ThePantsManCan]

Well, I found out how to fix my stringer issues in my Supra. All I had to do was unscrew the Throttle Knob and replace everything underneath of it with this:

[ThePantsManCan]

Physically, it was not very demanding. I encourage anyone who has a stringer job to tackle on an 80's style boat, to go ahead and do it.

[DW]

Very nice, more details on the boat, looks like a late '90's Echelon?

[ThePantsManCan]

Its the ALL FIBERGLASS 1996 Malibu Echelon with the EFI 320hp Monsoon engine. Perfect Pass Stargazer, 1000 hours, Heater, near perfect interior, great carpet, and removable rear seat. Haven't had it in the water yet as family responsibilities and weather have kept me away. Next Friday will be the first ride!

[ThePantsManCan]

Now, if I want to lighten this boat up, I'll just do the exhaust manifolds from Hi-Tek Marine and call it a day. I want to dial the new boat in and just go ski.

[BraceMaker]

Here as I was reading the thread I was starting to think about drilling out the seat frames, behind the dash, the fiberglass engine cover etc. etc.

 

This was probably the better solution.

[DW]

Very nice purchase. Actually, I have a similar boat and have pulled 300+# out of it and it made a significant improvement in the wake, per my earlier post. The iron exhaust manifolds are a great place to start, you will get about 90# from just that.

[Wish]

I drive and ski behind a 96 for a week or so every summer. Great driving boat and great skiing boat. Very tight solid feel when driving. And sports car like handling. You will be very happy. Cangrats!!!