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Binding Spacing


MattP
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We talk about front binding placement a lot here on the forum. Well front binding placement that is. Now with talk of movements of 1/10 & 1/16th for some of you with micro adjusters. Skiers with sequence plates/mono plates like @Horton tell us they moved their binding up or back 1/10” but some of us forget this also moved his rear binding as well. I assume most or a lot of us have our bindings mounted on separate plates. When you move your front binding forward or back are you always moving your rear bindings to keep the same distance between your feet?

 

I think that the common understanding is that bindings should be as close as possible or touching. When I have worked at ski school and at home setting up skis for other people and I have always moved rear bindings forward if there was a large gap and the results have always seemed positive for the skier.

 

Having one’s feet closer in my mind allows for more control in the edge change releasing the ski from the same point under the skier and not a disconnected movement that could result from having the bindings farther apart. Also having one’s bindings as close as possible creates a single pivot point under the skier for the ski to rotate around in the turn. There are always some exceptions I know JT runs his bindings farther apart and we all know his successes.

 

Putting one’s bindings closer will allow the trailing hip to be more naturally aligned and create a more neutral stance. Am I completely off here?

 

Based on factory recommendations everyones front heals/ankle bones are relatively in the same location but rear feet will be located all over the map due to foot size+binding spacing. Should we be compensating for this in some way?

 

In my case my front binding (reflex) is 29.125“ from the tail and my rear foot while in my RTP is 17” from the tail. My ankles are 10.5” apart and the closest I can get them is 10” apart by moving my rubber up another set of holes on the plate.

 

I do not think there is any right or wrong way to space one’s bindings.

 

What are y’alls thoughts on rear binding spacing/placement?

Is this more of a trial and error type of setting change?

Will a little wider stance will allow one to be more stable and balanced?

Will a closer stance provide a better pivot point/control?

 

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The more I know about this kind of stuff the more I realize how little I know. Binding spacing is the one thing I do not adjust.

 

Feet apart is generally more stable but it is harder to maintain your stack.

 

Front binding placement has a lot more to do with the off side turns. Feet closer together should make it easier to be centered on exit of off side.

 

Back binding placement has more to do with on side turns. Feet further apart should make you more powerful on exit of on side.

 

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Thanks for "planting the seed" of a good post @MattP . I hope the dialogue includes theories on whether spacing and placement should be the same regardless of foot size.

I've often wondered whether peeps with size 8 feet should follow same measurements and spacing as those w/ size 12+....

Also if foot size has advantages or disadvantages....since a large footed skier's feet can contact/control 20% more of the ski

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@davemac if anything I would think that skiers with bigger feet get less range of adjustment. @Dirt has size 13s or something. He can never get his ankles as close as a skier with size 10 feet.

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@MattP

 

My thought has always been that foot spacing/position is a series of compromises and the optimal position should vary person to person. Here's my opinion of the basic effects from a purely biomechanical perspective:

 

Feet Closer Together

1) Most neutral position for consistency between on and offside turns.

 

As Feet Become Wider Apart

1) Easier to stay stacked/balanced, make a strong turn, and maintain strong pull position on onside.

2) More difficult to get stacked, turn, and maintain position on offside. (think about hip rotation and flexibility if your feet are further apart, it's just more difficult to get into an offside pulling position)

3) Both sides allow you to place more leverage on the ski and generate a little more angle across course, so if you're able to overcome the difficulties on your offside it might be worth it for a little extra acceleration. However, to be able to do that without sacrificing the relative lean angle of your ski (which is by far more important for acceleration) is going to be pretty difficult without some insane flexibility.

 

For 99% of us my opinion is that it's probably best to keep our binders as close together as possible to remain as neutral as we can on the course.

 

There's also the option of moving the binders further forward or back on the ski. I think that biomechanical this is pretty benign, but it does significantly affect the dynamic performance of the ski in the water. Here's the summary of those thoughts:

 

Forward of Neutral Foot Position

1) It is going to be possible to get more ski in the water more easily on a given pull. This will definitely lead to more cross-course velocity assuming your able to generate the same lean angle on the ski (see next bullet).

2) Generating lean angle with the ski will be more difficult. Given the extra force from the boat coming on more quickly due to the increased ski in the water, you'll need to be in a good position coming out of the turn (see next bullet). So the transition to cross-course acceleration will be less forgiving.

3) Turns are going to be more difficult (and thus it's going to be more difficult to get into a good post-turn position) and take longer because you rely on the moment created by the water pressure to turn you across course. If you move further forward you drastically decrease this moment about the skis pivot point.

 

Back of Neutral Foot Position

1) You'll really be able to crack your turns here. You will be able to increase the turning moment on the ski here just as you decreased the turning moment when you moved forward on the ski. This will make turns happen quicker while maintaining velocity.

2) You will loose cross course velocity because you will not be able to get as much ski in the water. The equilibrium position across-course will require that you have more of the back of the ski in the water to maintain your buoyancy.

3) Generating cross-course angle will be easier due to the moment generated on the ski while you're pulling across course. However, I don't think it's likely that this will make up for the speed you lose to the reduced amount of ski in the water and tail drag.

 

Overall, given the tradeoffs it's apparent why many people ski in the neutral position. I would say that if you're someone who overcooks their turns, going forward on the ski might be beneficial. If you're someone who has difficulty making solid turns and hooking up afterwards, then you might benefit from moving back on the ski. There may be some optimal position here that we could discern from some comprehensive dynamic analysis, but it's probably easier to just experiment as preference here is going to vary widely from individual to individual. In any case, I think practice will likely have more of a lasting effect on our performance than moving the binders forward or back. :-)

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During this past season there were pictures of Regina's boot setup posted on BOS. It surprised me how much space there was between the front and rear boot. @Jody_Seal and I discussed this and I wouldn't dream of paraphrasing Mr. Seal on his opinion of why her stance is so different but maybe he'll see this and chime in. Also, another skier with almost as much notoriety as Regina, but on the negative side, used a wide stance: Dr Jim Michaels.

 

Wide vs narrow is just like most everything else in ski set up. There isn't a right or wrong just trade-offs. Finding the right set-up for your individual characteristics is the key.

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For two skiers with vastly different size feet on the same size ski it would seem the skier with the larger feet might want his binding setup (as typically measured) a bit forward of the skier with smaller feet. This due to the greater distance between ankles for the skier with larger feet.

 

On the other hand, if most of your rear foot pressure is on the ball of your foot then the affect of foot size is likely really small since the distance between front ankle and ball or rear foot is very small.

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When I skied in Animals, I always skied better when the toes of my back foot were resting upward on the back heel of the front boot. I tried various spacing, and always came back to that.

I chopped off the front of my back hardshell so I could get closer together, but then went back to Animals after an incident. Have not done anything with my Stradas, but wonder if I should, or go to a back boot where I can scrunch the boots together again.

 

Size 12

 

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There's definitely no "right answer" for boot spacing. I almost always make independent boot adjustments or will sometimes move one boot to go with a fin move. It's always about compromises when you're doing something as asymmetrical as riding a ski with one foot in front of the other.

 

In general we turn our toeside turns more on the ball of out front foot and our heelside turns more with the middle or heel of our rear foot. With that in mind you can make independent adjustments to change the way the ski turns. For instance, I see a lot of women skiers who struggle with their onside turns. The ski just turns slowly and they will fall in. Most of the time this is because they have their front boot up near factory settings and they have a small gap between their feet. Since they also have small feet they end up with a ton of space between their back heel and the back of the ski. On a heelside turn you're basically pushing the fin through the water, so the longer that moment arm is the harder it will be to get the ski to turn and come under the line. Therefore someone like Regina who crushes her onside has a bigger gap between her feet. It gets her heel back to where it needs to be.

 

Foot size can also effect where you need to put your boots. I for one have a fairly large foot so I generally have to run my front boot back of factory settings. This is because it gets the ball of my foot to where it needs to be.

 

If I were to give a rule of thumb, not that I should, I would say this: Get your front foot as far forward as you can without making the ski stop in the toeside turn or get behind you into the 1st wake, and put your back foot as far back as you can without overturning your heelside and making your offside pull too awkward. For some people that's a 2" gap, and for others it's 0.

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I have a comparatively large gap between my bindings. It was suggested to me by a coach at ski school several years ago and I have never messed with it. I feel comfortable and don't seem to have issues being stacked on the ski or getting the ski to turn.
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I've just noticed we're all talking about static positioning of the feet and the associated pros/cons. How about dynamic foot positioning such as afforded by a rear toe plate? I would argue that it potentially provides you with ability to maximize certain aspects of the ski's performance at different points of the course. I personally ski with double binders, but I've noticed many (though certainly not all) of the professionals do use rear toe plates.

 

Could it be that the ability to dynamically change rear-foot position can be exploited (and perhaps is currently being exploited) to enhance performance?

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That's a cool video! Is that Andy Mapple?

 

So it looks like there's not really too much motion on the RTP. The only thing I can see of any significance is he gets on his toes in the turn and stays flat during the pull. The only way it really makes sense that way is if the neutral axis is below the front foot and the moment on the ski is reducing the load on the back foot during the initiation of the turn. In any case, I retract my previous statement, it doesn't look like he's using the freedom of motion any more than someone with binders would.

 

Thanks for the video @MattP. I'd awesome it twice if I could. :-)

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@mattP: That's an awesome video. Put a lot of questions to rest! Clearly answered the heel shift question, but also one I had about hard vs. soft shell. Although his ankle doesn't shift, it rolls quite a bit. But then more questions. Does that mean in a soft binding he can get more body lean without putting the ski up on edge perpendicular to his shin? Or does it give him more of an analog input to ski edge instead of digital with hardshell? Is that why he cuts his hardshell down in front so he can roll front ankle? Hell. Now I'm more knowledgable but no less confused.
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I have always put my feet as close together as possible. Since I moved to hard shells, many years ago, I could not get them as close, but touching works for me. So when I move my bindings, they move together as one unit.

Mike's Overall Binding

USA Water Ski  Senior Judge   Senior Driver   Senior Tech Controller

 

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@adamcord Thank you so much. I've never heard it explained like that and it really makes sense of what I've been experiencing while experimenting with front boot placement. Lots of information on why you should move your boots forwards or backwards but this explanation finally clicks with me.
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@Waternut I'm glad I can help. I've spent way too much time screwing with stuff like that instead of just working on my skiing like a normal person...

 

@gator1 Being able to move your shin bone independently from the ski is really important. The best setups IMHO are ones where your foot can't move at all but you have freedom to move your ankle. I think forward and back ankle movement is more of a preference thing as far as how tight the boot feels but you definitely need at least some of it. I think most hardshell boots are too stiff side to side. I run a cut down reflex, couldn't run a pass with it stock. The goode boots are softer so they are more forgiving, which is why you don't see people cutting those.

 

You can usually tell if someone has hardshells or double boots that are too stiff around the ankle by watching the way they exit the turn. On offside normally the tip comes up and they fall off the tail a bit because they can't keep their body forward and lead the ski back to the handle. On onside it's hard to keep the ski on edge so they either get stood up and lose angle or they drop in extra hard to make up for it and get a bunch of load.

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@AdamCord - Thank you so much for the info you provided, binding position has been a mistery for me. I have small feet (US 8.5) and moved my R-style one hole back (about 1.2" apart now), my heel side - which has been my weak side - improved a lot.

 

@Horton - I know it doesn´t count, but made my training PB this week, 6@39 and no, I did not shorten it to 41 (I´m stupid I know)

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Cool thread.

 

When i set up my boots I focus on my heel side turn because my toeside turn is better. I want all the help I can get cleaning up the on side. I focus on how my ski comes back from the apex and finishes.

 

At the apex, I want the ski to "tip" over the rocker point on the side of my ski. Lay any ski on its side and it will teeter right about the ball of your back foot. I feel like I go out to the apex gliding behind the rocker point and at the apex (maybe just before the apex) I tip forward to engage the forward part of the ski. Not sure that's exactly what is happens but that is how it feels.

 

Once I am coming back from the apex I want to make sure the ski will get back inside the buoy line and to the point where the rope tightens up.

 

So boots too far forward the ski gets stuck at the apex and doesn't get far enough back inside at the finish. Too far back and the ski is slow to commit from the apex and slides down course. I don't have a specific plan for how I move the front vs back boot. I generally keep the spacing about the same but it does change ski to ski. I think I am pretty close together but enough spacing to feel balanced forward to back.

 

@adamcord thanks for the comments on boot stiffness. I will play withy reflex cuffs this spring.

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@Horton can you "promote" @AdamCord to something more than "Baller"???? For those that do not know who he is it may be beneficial.

Best thread I have read on here for a while in regard to setting up a ski.

Adam a "ski setup 101" would be handy for a lot of people e.g. Set fin and boots to stock, and then your method of adjusting, for example a sequence of. Front boot position, rear position, fin length, fin depth, DFT, wing.

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A thread from back in the day when double boots were still cool. Thought it was worth a bump even with the trend to kickers... I've been messing about with my boot spacing recently and finding some stuff that I like. Going wider seems to give me more stability but do need to run more sets. I'm told Will Asher runs his bindings a fair way apart so there might be something to it.
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@LeonL -- as an RTP skier I've historically been where my toes touch the back of the front binding. Andy told me once to try a little further apart, as he felt it gave you a bigger platform. I haven't gone crazy on the topic, but slightly further apart (one hole on my RTP) works really well on the new Vapor.
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first a tribute to BOS in that I knew this topic had been covered and it was easy to find and very informative. Like many on this thread, I had my rear boot so my toes were at the front horseshoe heel for ever. I even would cut the rear plate in front to get them as close together as I could. I wear size 12 shoes. I thought that was it, over the years. This season I talked with and noticed that a lot of skiers had more space than that, or distance, than none. So I tried it- moved the rear boot back one hole here in the fall and indeed it was upon getting up there was a sense of more stability. I have left it there and skied last tournament this way. Also as explained in the thread my onside is more easily aggressive. So at this point at the end of the season, I am leaving the ski as it was setup all year with that one change to start next year just as it was. I was wondering if since the time this thread started the skis have a longer or larger 'sweet spot' and maybe a bit more spacing is a good thing.Thanks to the expertise on this thread and on BOS generally and Happy Holidays.

And PS I wonder if older skiers (admittedly I am M7) run more distance than they did back in their younger days?

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@cruznski Hey Gordon. I think the spacing between your front heel and rear toe is less relevant than the space between your heels. Rule of thumb, I think, is that you want about 12” between your heels regardless of your size or foot size. Obviously, the larger your feet. The closer your rear toes are to your front heel. This rule may vary on skis sized by width rather than length. Obviously, if you have a size 14 foot, you aren’t going to get a 12” spread.

FYI, Regina and Chelsea Mills both have size 7 feet and an 11 7/8 spread.

Lpskier

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@lpskier so i got out the tape measure and very close to 12" it is now. I had not heard that guidance on the spread so thanks. This brings up the ski spec which we have had forever the distance from the back of the ski to the back of the binding, it is one number like 30" for example. Is that correct for all size feet? Maybe it is if the heels are the same distance apart as in the above.

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I think a 12-in spread is typical. I just checked my bindings and I have about a 12-in spread but I certainly would not push a shorter skier to a 12-in spread. That just doesn't make any sense. The GOAT ( Regina ) might have a 12 but that absolutely doesn't mean that my 8-year-old daughter should have the same spread. I think most skiers need their feet as close together as is practical. Spread is maybe the least sensitive of all the adjustments but encouraging somebody shorter to go 12 does not make any sense.

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Lapoint is recommending 12”, I think the convo starts at 35s.I do agree with Horton that 12” likely needs to adjust for smaller skiers on smaller skis. I saw this video last summer and measured my setup. I was at 11.5”. I moved it to 12”. I don’t think it’s a significant difference, maybe slightly more control of the back of the ski.

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The reason why I tend to push skiers towards bindings as close as is practical is help with stance. As you spread your feet you're more likely to lose your stack. On the other hand if you have a rock solid stack you may find increasing your spread beneficial. Since most people's stack is not bulletproof I push everybody towards feet closer together.

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