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Skiing Increasingly Pricing Out Middle Class


Ed_Obermeier
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@mattP - "owning" a construction company is not exactly blue collar.

 

@oldjeep - your ski racing is a lot cheaper than my ski racing. $500 for a season? Wow.

 

@OB - I think some of us would like to see the sport "grow" partly for our elite level skiers (to me that means Open skiers, not Big Dawgs) to be more visible, earn more, actually make a living at it. As far as the rest of us, it would be nice to just see our sport continue to sustain/perpetuate itself through new families, new kids coming in. There is only a minute amount of that happening. Mostly our sustainability is through kids of serious skiers and that is too small.

 

I agree that I don't want a much bigger crowd at my club site, but I would like to see more club sites, more skiers, more families, more kids in the sport just so it sustains itself.

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@jimbrake $200 season pass at one of the local hills (Welch Village - cheap when you buy it the previous year) $106 for the league fees - (early bird and I only race one league). The rest is just some misc lift tickets and daily race fees. Midwest Championships is at my home ski hill this year so that doesn't really cost any more than the $59 entry fee. MRL Championships are in MI this year so I doubt I'll go. I'm a cheap ass, so I usually find a way to get discounted lift tickets when I'm at another hill.

 

In a year I'm buying equipment it would be more, but I'm not the guy who changes skis like underware;) I've got a couple pairs that I like and don't see any reason to change, my skiing limits my results not the skis. Only equipment this year was a new pair of last years GS gloves.

 

I don't figure in gas or beer - see my rule about boating/waterskiing ;)

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In a way, I'm in @OBs court. I'm often asked to speak at functions around town, but the frequency of those requests is steadily decreasing. Which is a good thing. Most of the civic leaders here are shocked once we get to the Q&A portion and I explain to people that I don't want our city to grow, we don't need more jobs, we don't need more people, we don't need more traffic, I don't want more guys out competing for my pheasants, driving real estate values up so you can tax more to build more roads is stupid, and I'm perfectly happy if Mt. Spokane teeters on the edge of bankruptcy and can't build a better base lodge. Just keep the lifts turning.

 

If you want to go to the damn opera, move to Seattle, and please tell everybody you meet what a scary place filled with skin heads and survivalists you came from.

 

Same thing with skiing. I'm ok with the size right now. Its only the trajectory of that size that is maybe worrying, but I'm not even sure about that.

 

How would skiing be better if there were more people doing it?

 

And, really, do I want my grandkids addicted to this? Dunno. Every day, as the injuries from way back and recently affect my daily off-season life more profoundly, I wonder more.

 

We all give "awesomes" and the like to every post of family involved in the sport. But, just sitting here thinking about this for the first time, there is not one guy in the group of 11 close ski buddies I've had over the years who ended up with his kids or wife supporting and sharing his involvement. EVERYBODY I know who chases buoys does it to the detriment (or at least in their wife's view) of their marriage and family.

 

I think the reason we give the awesomes is that the propaganda view of the happy family involved in the sport is pretty damn rare. I don't debate its out there, and it must be really cool for the guys that have it.

 

Reminds me of those pictures you see in the casino ads. Bunch of hotties clustered around a slot machine, all ecstatic over the money pouring out. Real life: a few blue haired matrons on oxygen, dead eyed as they punch the button.

 

Open bow ski boat add: Happy wife and two kids, smiling in the sunshine, kid about to go take a tube ride with dad's tourney stick sitting suggestively in the back of the boat. Real life: Dad and a few of his buddies sneaking furtively out to the lake, all knowing there will be hell to pay when they get home.

 

I love the sport, have been extremely lucky to chase buoys for 40 years, a lot of that time due to the kindness of others. I do think when we talk about "it", a dose of reality might be a good thing.

 

And its shitty outside, my knee hurts too bad to go ski the bulletproof, its been a miserable bird year and blah. Man, I hate early winter and early spring.

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@oldjeep I grew up on that hill (Welch) my father started the ski patrol there Waaaaay back. I started skiing there at age 2. I was a lift operator, ski instructor for little kids and did other odd jobs over the yrs of my youth. I even had the chance to drag my daughter (FL born) all the way there and ski as part of a winter trip to MN. Fign cold that day but she hit the slopes anyway.

 

@Jimbrake I'm not sure the current crop of waterski related manufactures need the 3 event or just slalom to grow. I'm guessing here but the likes of OBrien, Connelly, Radar, HO get their payout on the sale of stuff other then slalom skies. They make it by making tube toys, wakeboards, SUP boards, and wakesurf board stuff. Not sure a tiny fractional increase in 3 event would even make a dent in the overall earnings of companies like this. We are and the Pros are supported by these companies branching out beyond 3 event and making enough to give back to what makes up a small portion of earnings. Same with all the major boat companies.

 

I'm leaning towards @OB's point of view. Yes we all want the pros to get there's and who wouldn't want to see that on ESPN. But do I want every house on my lake to have an inboard and be buoy chasers...hell no. I like that I can walk out and ski any time I like. Call me selfish. I've introduced, coached and even addicted many many skiers over the yrs and have guests all the time. But the sport like many other nitch sports doesn't have a lot of room to grow within 3 event/slalom (even though I see it growing). But if the big manufactures, like HO's FreeRide series for example, makes a play for the folks outside of 3 event, I think waterskiing in general has a chance to grow without buoys being involved. So it's a little Elite. I pulled it off on a crazy low budget.

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@gator1

4 generations of my family have qualified and skied nationals. 3 generations have national medals. Skiing has been a very good thing for my FAMILY. It is something that connects us.

 

the guy I skied with the most in the last 5 years skis every weekend with his 3 kids.

 Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

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@Horton: Ya, I know. Your family is for sure one of the shining examples. But my experience is you're the exception, not the rule. Of all the guys you know chasing buoys, what's the ratio of happy family involvement vs. grudging acceptance of dad's/hubby's weird obsession?

 

The sport connects me to my uncle and brother. But every wife in our very extended family, and all the rest of the kids and nephews, view it with varying levels of indifference to hatred.

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Of my 6 normal ski partners, 5 of them ski with their families. One skis with his wife and daughter, another his son, another his daughter, and another his wife and two stepsons, another with his wife. The family's are not always around, but they come around frequently to be involved and ski. Come to think of it, of almost everyone I know in skiing, the ones who involve their families are the vast majority. Probably on the order of 10:1.
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Many of us can see family time as hitting some sets together or being slalom addicted together. Most non-addict family time on the water for folks, though, is likely spent "boating". They have bigger boats with capacity, they also may board recreactionally, tube, float around jumping off the boat etc. I find most that do this on our lake don't live on the lake...they trailer and the family has gone to the lake for the day. They may have stern drives with towers!

 

The folks with boats on lifts? They may shoot out for a quick tube ride or a quick ski, then back on the lift and off to some other aspect of life. This is different and represents my family. My kids want to go for a board, we go out and pull 'em but they don't want to just hang in the boat very often...I would all day if I could...but I didn't grow up on a lake, either. If kid friends are here they board together, but then it's most often back to the dock.

 

Due to a busy life, buoys go this way, too. I can't hang out and float around the swamp with my ski partner(s) all day unless I forego my family. I shoot out to the swamp, we each ski twice, put it up and wipe it down...go home.

 

Dream day...up in the morning and hit some swampy glass...3 sets in the buoys. Come home and eat big (eggs, bacon, toast). Toward noon pack a cooler with my family and some friends, jump in the boat and head out on the public water returning hours later. Putt putt a little, swim a little, pull a skier/boarder/tuber...maybe heat my feet up a bit. Have a few drinks, listen to some tunes...relax!

 

Come back and play some yard games, grill up some ribs for the crew. Sit around and tell some stories, play some cards, a few more drinks and call it a night. Would be really cool to do it all again tomorrow...that would be the bomb.

 

This can be done on the relative cheap...but one needs willing participants. My family likes the lake and the boat...I'm an addict.

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@OB you forget that I know that you promote the sport more than 99.99% of the folks who read this site. You may be just a wacky Marine but what you have done for the skiers in Atlanta should be a model for the other cities.

 Goode ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki ★ Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes

Drop a dime in the can

 

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@Horton - agree with your sentiment re: OB. Wish we had that model in more places. Someone needs to do exactly that with Lake 3 at Bell Acqua. Club, club boat, club driver. The lake is just sitting and decaying and is in a great, nearly inner-city locale.

 

@gator - Wow. Don't know where to start. Skiing (snow and water) with my kids is one of the best things going in my life. It's a fairly common thing in our area - the skiing family. But then, we are a different world, California. Ya know? Bummer it's so bad in eastern WA.

 

@oldjeep - yeah, our Masters setup at Squaw Valley is a bit different. I could go to a smaller hill and probably get someone to give me some hill space to train cheaper, but then I wouldn't be at Squaw. To do Far West Masters the "right way" (be competitive) is at least a $10k/yr endeavor especially if you chase the speed events. Unfortunately, I can't do it the right way.

 

If you do water skiing the same way - boat, training time, coaching, equipment, RC entry fees, travel, etc. it's similar or even worse.

 

Someone tell me the sport that you can pursue in a serious manner, whether for you or your kids, and do it cheaply. Not even the mainstream, school sports anymore.

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@ms. Ya. A little late for that now. @Wish, I wonder if @thekrista has numbers on family vs individual memberships? BOS posters in no way represent statistical sample. @jimbrake, yep, its a bummer up here. If you were to catch wind of anybody considering moving this way, be sure to tell them its awful.
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Perhaps the question is not "are the xyz class being priced out of the sport" but rather "are most people that ski generally very well off" and to that I would say yes. Almost everyone I know that skis is extremely well off. Most people I meet at ski schools are extremely well off. Most of the people I see at tournaments are extremely well off. So yeah, lots of rich folks waterski, I'd even say based on my anecdotal observations the vast majority of buoy heads are very, very well off. I've heard it said that if somebody is better than you at water skiing that they are most likely richer than you are. Funny, but mostly true in my experience though there are exceptions to every rule. You're a better skier than I am and you're also rich or your family is rich and can devote more time to the sport or were able to bring you up in an environment where you could thrive in private water, instruction, etc. Meh, oh well. Who cares.

 

Here's a question— what percentage of pro skiers or very high level skiers come from wealthy families?

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@jimbrake: No. Everything north of Oregon is terrible, and nobody should consider moving there. Spread the word. Its cold, its dark, people have guns and pickup trucks. Marauding grizzly bear snatch children from suburban backyards, and it rains non-stop. East of the Cascades is particularly bleak, as conservatives roam the inhospitable plains, searching in vain for marriageable females who like skiing and will continue to do so after the kids are born. I thought it was bad, after reading the posts on everyone's ski-centric family my fears have been confirmed.
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@jimbrake, next time you're in eastern wa, give me a call, we'll get a set in then grab a beer in LaCrosse. No way any town in CA can beat pickups and guns per capita. Not dissing CA. Just sayin. 15 years ago the high school kids still brought their shotguns to school during pheasant season so they could hunt a bit over lunch.
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2012 median US household income was $51,371.

1982 median US household income was $45,000.

 

What portion of buoy-chasers are at or below that 2012 level of income today?

What portion do you think were at or below that level back in 1982?

 

 

 

 

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Why I want this sport to grow is open public water is my only option. I am sick of hearing from people about public courses that USED to be on this lake and that lake all around me, but no longer exist. I think if more people were passionate about skiing, more public courses would show up with more people pushing for them. AND less of these massive WAVE makers with huge speakers and punk spoiled kids driving them!
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@monkstr6100 are there issues with getting permitted in WI? When we vacationed there years ago it required permission of all shoreline owners adjacent to it, even if not very close to shore. I ski any of 5 public lake courses in MN and am aware of many others.
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2012 median US household income was $51,371.

1982 median US household income was $45,000.

 

What portion of buoy-chasers are at or below that 2012 level of income today?

What portion do you think were at or below that level back in 1982?

 

Read the other day that fully HALF of the US workforce makes under $29,000 a year. Small wonder the sport isn't growing.

 

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I am somewhat unique on this board because I have a MC X-2 with 2,100 lbs of extra ballast and spend most of my boat time wake surfing.... it is because that is what my kids want to do. I have the boat so I can spend time with my kids. Once they are all out of the house, I will get a slalom boat.

 

In every activity that becomes a competitive sport, there will be the push to the very top of performance. It goes from being a fun activity to being an obsession that you train for, engage in highly disciplined practice, develop specific equipment, and concentrate on the last 0.3% to reach the top. The early techniques and equipment fall by the wayside and the amount of time and money it takes to stay current goes way up. Consider the time and money spent on swimsuits, running apparel, and shoes for olympic athletes - in sports that require almost no equipment.

 

When a sport becomes fully mature, you typically have stratification of the levels of the sport. You also may find a dramatic drop off in participation if the average participant is so far removed from the elites that they no longer can relate. The best sports organizations at managing this either have a massive spectator bias (NASCAR, NFL, etc.) or have a wide base of local competitions (distance running, AYSO, etc.) with little cost and barriers to entry.

 

In our case, we have a fully mature sport with little spectator appeal with a high cost and massive barriers to entry. It is a struggle to survive other than as a small, niche sport.

 

There is no easy answer. My daughter and I ran the Allendale Waterski and Wakeboard club last year and taught several kids how to ski, slalom, wakeboard, kneeboard, and wakesurf last year. It was expensive and time consuming, but we were happy to do it. It is up to each individual to determine for themselves ho to best enjoy and perhaps promote our sport.

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We live in WI and put our EZ Ed course in as much as possible, and have never needed a permit. We always get a few people who want to run through it, to test their slalom skills. As you all know, one's first attempt at a course usually doesn't go so well, which could be (and has been) a turn off to some people who've tried ours. Because of this, we always pop on the novice balls, which makes it much easier for people to get the bug. If it wasn't for those genius green balls, my wife likely never would've taken to enjoying the course.

 

Just to add...the key to keeping the peace while having a course out is to just let people try it. You can't be a lake ogre, shooing people away from it.

 

And just a plug for @Ed Obermeier, we own an EZ Slalom and a portable from another vendor. If anyone were to ask me my opinion, I'd say EZ Ed is the way to go, hands down. He adds a lot of smart little touches that you really appreciate in real world application.

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@ED - HELLO???? lmfao I don't know why but as soon as I seen your "HELLO" I sat here at my computer and bust a gut! That's some funny sh*t! :)

 

I too was going to get a portable course until fate brought me to an opportunity to get a lot and build a home on a ski lake.

 

I think the biggest issue with portable courses and local laws is that the owners of these courses want to leave them in the water too long!

Put them in the water - ski your asses off, share it with others for a couple passes, then remove it when not in use!

 

Hence the term "PORTABLE" and yes those who don't know - seek out Ed!!!!!

 

@MattP I fall into the 30% range on your scale and as I previously noted in an earlier post on this subject it IS POSSIBLE - I didn't start this gig again with a %50,000 boat and a $2000 ski. I started and upgraded as I could!

 

And FWIW - our new home we are building is the first NEW home we have ever had and it is by no means a mansion! But it's ours and I will get to ski LOTS! :)

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(Chuckling as I'm writing this.) Thanks for the plugs guys, always sincerely appreciated. I try really hard not to blatently promote my business on this forum. I believe very firmly that this is not the proper place to do that and it kinda pisses me off when I see others (occasionally) do that. Sure I want everyone here to know I build courses, I do advertise on this site as much as I can afford to, and I hope my presence here is of some value to someone occasionally. But my post wasn't intended as blatant advertising @Monkstr6100. Just wanted you to know I'm out here. :>)

 

Cheers, Ed

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@Ed_Overmeier certainly not speaking for @Horton in any way but since you are a paying advertiser on the forum I've never felt like you're taking advantage of participating in the discussion threads. To me, again not speaking for Horton, it's part of the value (reward?) for participating often and openly.
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@disland: my family used to come to the nationals with me, but that was only because I was a jumper and we all knew the odds were pretty high that I wouldn't be able to drive myself home. They hated the boredom, usually brutally hot conditions, and the wife in particular detests porta potties.

 

Besides my data on the buoy chasers I know in both eastern WA and Illinois, I've been to two tournaments in the last 4 years. There were a smattering of high end motorhomes at each, containing families who were, on the surface, involved in skiing. Those families were, without fail, welcoming and hopeful that I would get back into the tournament scene on a more active basis.

 

It became a bit awkward when I was being pressed for reasons behind my polite non-committal answers on why it had been 15 years since my last tourney, or in the second case, 3 years.

 

I couldn't say "because my wife hates these damn things, and dragging her to one just puts me farther in the ski doghouse". Because, I know for a fact, that a good percentage of the motorhomes were bought to try to bribe the wives and kids to come to the tourney, in a failed attempt to convert the individual obsession into a "family outing" that the baller could get credit for.

 

The guys who are happy posting about their wives skiing participation along with their family are happy and excited BECAUSE THEY KNOW ITS RARE.

 

The guys who ski nationals are a self-selecting group: they got to nationals in part because they have families who enable their addiction.

 

Somebody posted earlier "if there is a guy better than you, he's got more money". In my experience, he's also got a second wife, recently divorced, or is one of the few that happened upon a woman who enjoys heat, humidity, bugs, and boredom.

 

I'm not arguing that such women/families don't exist. I grew up around the Kreugers and Chappels in Illinois. I am arguing they are rare.

 

And I'm not pissed off at my wife. In fact, if she was as into this as me we'd have given up a lot of balance that I'm pretty sure was a good thing.

 

My position, from which the data posted has moved me not one millimeter, is that on the whole, buoy chasing is not a family sport. And if we define buoy chasing as skiing, and the problem we're trying to solve is we want more buoy chasers, then my opinion is that we need to be realistic about a big drawback to our cause.

 

Snow skiing, on the other hand, worked out for us as a big family sport. We have two or three big trips a year, multi-generational, anywhere from 4 to 18 people vectoring in from all locations around the country. Those are really good times. But nobody is there to chase gates.

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My wife/kids don't ski tourneys, but fully support me when I do or when I take a 3 day weekend in ORL to ski...b/c they know how much I love it. For me the tourney issue and ski trip issue is maybe 3-4 weekends per year. If I chased tourneys every weekend to the detriment of family it would be an issue...but to be honest I don't want that, either.

 

At home I can ski Friday after work (having skied Wednesday noon), and get in 2 sets Sat and Sun a.m., weather permitting with little to no family disruption. Keeps the entire boat afloat, everyone happy, and everyone's unique interests supported as well. Wish it was on ZO but right now not possible. Wish I had a longer season, too.

 

Of the tourney's I hit in MN and the annual FL trip w/my bro...there are some families skiing there and husband/wife pairs. But the majority of skiers are individual and some have family there watching.

 

The above strays a bit from the cost issue...but the way that I feed my habit is "on the cheap". I'm pretty sure with more tourney chances, I could put up bigger avg's than my typical 3 shot tourney avg just by chance...and it would increase my cost quite a bit...as would a ZO boat. I'm pretty sure I would have fun meeting/hanging with more skiers and those skiers that do bring families.

 

Right now, though, that's not my family and my priority is balancing my skiing needs with the needs of my particular family...it's all good and does not cost me a fortune. I do think for those pushing scores to the max...it can be a pretty costly endeavor in boats/equipment/travel/time. If my body holds up after my kids are grown...maybe my skiing gets expensive, too :)

 

To each their own in their circumstance and big props from me to the short-liners and the new scrappers...the buoys bind us on this site and it seems to me all ballers are welcome here. Seems we all pay what's necessary to feed our own need.

 

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@shaneh, Ya, I guess that could be the difference.

 

That or I'm just a major butt head, who hangs around with other antisocial buttheads. Impressive that the ballers showed enough restraint to avoid pointing that possibility out. Good on ya, mates!

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