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over-turning 2/4


19skier
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I regularly "over-turn" then loose angle at 2 & 4. I have not adjusted the fin on 2012 S2 since original setup (0.756, 6.870, 4.484, no wing) EXO boots all the way back. LFF, 67.5" 195# getting thru -32/32mph on a great day. Any setup advice? Thx.
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Hard to say without video. But if that is your on-side (right foot forward) you may be pushing it around with your back leg. If so,try to keep equivalent weight on both legs. I do this by telling myself to keep my ankles a little soft and bent all the way to the hookup and before the ball as well. S2 does not like to be pushed around the corner...at all. At least that's been my experience with it. If I over turn 2,4 i can almost always trace it back to trying to force/hook the turn. Try that if that's the case before adjusting. You don't want to adjust to hide a bad habit and then continue with the bad habit. Boots all the way back and fin that far forward seems questionable though..
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It could be a number of things, so you should post some video. It might be more than fin settings.

 

I have personal experience overturning my offside (2/4), and to fix it I had to go back to my onside. I would find myself too much up on the ski with weight forward coming into 2 ball, so the only way to turn it was to jump on the tip resulting in a hard turn and loss of speed at the ball. It turns out I was taking too much out of 1 ball and giving it back after the 2nd wake, putting me up on the ski. After easing up on my 1 ball, I was able to stay down through the wakes and cast my ski out for a nice carving turn at 2.

 

Not sure if this is your issue or not, but it is worth a try.

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@Wish Yes 2.484 Had a -35/34mph skier give advice to "be patient" on those turns and it seems to be key to running the pass. I'm sure it is more operator error than setup but wondering if adjusting the fin or moving boots could minimize the tendency. I have some video a friend sent I will see if I'm tech enough to post it.

@AB Feels like breaking at the waist when the ski stalls or bites too much angle(?)

@Erik4c Read on here that wing doesn't contribute much until 34/36 mph so don't run it.

@Marco Thx good things to try to try out.

Thanks for comments

Got the video on wow looks like nothing is coming easy! Lots to work on - stiff leggs/slow reflexes/old age balance - but still fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu6OFWyYSE8

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@Erik4c This guy does not run one either. I'm pretty sure he has won Worlds 5 times and designed the ski he is on. Don't listen to @MS

http://static-cl1.vanilladev.com/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/uploads/FileUpload/14/914.png

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i dont see you over turning 2 and 4 i see you blocking the skis carve and rotation shortly after the apex and then pushing on the tail to wheelie and try to slow down while your waiting for the boat to pick you up again. then once you have pressure on the rope you slowly ride that wheelie almost all the way to the wake while the boat drags you straight down course. my understanding of over turning is when you crank the ski to an extreme angle you cant maintain and then the boat yanks you back out of that angle. your not doing that ever in those passes.
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@19skier I used to have the same problem until someone told me that I just needed to let the ski flow and let it ski itself around instead of forcing it to do this. I believe I was rushing and I was trying to force the ski round with loads of back foot pressure (ended up losing all of my angle and i found myself struggling to regain that angle I had lost).

 

I ski at about the same speed as you and I too do not use a wing because I don't think It has that much affect at the slower speeds and it teaches you to have a bit more front foot pressure in the pre-turn to help slow the ski down. If you maintain this front foot pressure or equal pressure on both feet the whole way through the turn and out of it you should notice a good deal of difference.

 

The objective is to find that sweet spot on the ski, which is a little more forward than where you are skiing on now. I agree with @mwetskier when he says that you are trying to slow the ski down by jamming your back foot down. this is not when you should be trying to slow down, you should be doing that in your pre-turn by shifting your weight a little more forward and maintain that balance point the whole way through the turn.

 

Try to apply a little more front foot pressure through the wakes as well which will help a lot to set you up for the next buoy.

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wow.. that looks like a cool place to ski. I too ran many 35's without wing. Somewhere on youtube or maybe in the search box under forum watch Seth Stisher whip drills. I think this would help you get a mental picture of the tempo and stance. Most of us can't ski like Seth, but pick the greatest common denominator. For me, I try to keep my shoulders level and start the turn with my knees. I don't pull it off every time, but that's my goal. good times......
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@mattp Yes, he is a a legend.

I was just reaponding to his question on setup. A wing not only slows the ski down it adds stability. That was my opinion on setup. I completely agree with all the technique suggestions.

Erik

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@19skier You are starting on the back of the ski from the time you make your first move to pull out. Go watch that video of Regina about the terrible 1 ball and watch her glide for the gates. Straighten that back leg out and feel like you're making yourself 4 inches taller like she does.
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Shane is bang on. you are tail riding it the whole pass so unable to use the ski's surface area and edges like they are designed. Where is the heal of your front boot from the tail? should be around 30". How are your boots spaced/canted?

 

I disagree about leaving the fin where it is because you are running a significantly smaller surface area than stock and not using all of the ski right now. At 32mph a wing wont be doing much for you IMO. You are a lot further forward than stock by over 200s (.756 vs .730), the rest aren't that far off, Maybe try 1 thing at a time, but here are stock settings for that ski:

 

http://www.hosports.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2013-Fin-and-Boot-Settings-guide.pdf

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Thx all. Think your comments on the tail riding are right on. I have watched that video 10 times now and I am surprised how different the turns look than they have felt - I was sure the 2/4 turns were coming way around and the ski was trying to stop. Definitely will get fresh video to watch when the course floats again.

@ShaneH Unbelievable video of Regina. My worst leg injuries came from OTF falls - I need to get after it like that girl and quit staying back on the ski trying to avoid those falls.

@wtrskior Front heal is app. 29 1/2 and toe to heal. I will move the fin 0.020 back and the boot ahead a half inch for a fresh start when the ice goes.

Only 16 days until the sun starts back!

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Defintely agree with Shane. Start at stock settings for fin and bindings- (I think no wing is fine at 32 mph...) I am LFF- when my ski overturns at 2 and 4 it is normally from 'being lazy' after my stronger cut, letting the handle out, and allowing my upper body to move forward onto the ski. The ski is designed to turn with the forebody in the water. and it will slow down and (over)turn out from under me if I move around on it on my off-side turn. Keep the handle in until buoy line with hips over bindings, and shoulders level. The ski will turn fine. Ski back to the handle and repeat as necessary...
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