Ideas for someone who is hesitating at the finish?

[Than_Bogan]

I've really enjoyed coaching a family of up-and-coming girls skiers on our lake. I had a big smile on my face at a recent tournament when I was trying to suggest something to another kid and one of them said "listen to him -- he's a really good coach!"

 

But one of these girls has a chronic problem that I'm having trouble finding the right things to say that will correct it.

 

As background, her position behind the boat is very good. I could use her pictures for my leverage position article. She usually runs 30mph, often runs 32mph, and has not (to my knowledge) run 32/-22 (G2).

 

But at the apex of her turn, she suddenly stands up just about vertical, with her weight toward the back of the ski, and basically just wastes about 20 feet of space before getting back to a good stance and re-entering her good leverage position.

 

I started with simply telling her to finish her turns harder, but that did nothing at all, so I tried some more specific directions. I've tried "more weight to the front foot," "keep front ankle bent," "drive ski around turn with front foot," "ski back in behind the handle," and "drive your outside hip back to the handle at the finish."

 

Of these, more weight to her front foot seems to work better than the others, but none of them are really resolving this technique problem, and it's really holding her back. I feel she has the stuff to run -28 (and maybe more) if she can get rid of this pronounced hesitation.

 

All ideas welcome! (And no I don't have video, although perhaps I can get some and get permission to share it.)

[Skoot1123]

A question to clarify - does she seem afraid of eating it in the turn? From your description it sounds like she is not comfortable getting low to the water in the turn. If that is the case then try and explain to her that if she carries enough speed through the turn, she won't fall over during the turn.

[Deke]

Does this only happen on one side?

[jayski]

@Than_Bogan Does she have rope tension through the finish of the turn???

 

A lot of skiers will do that (stand up as stated) if they do not have a tight line or another way to describe it as some tension to 'lean against' or 'support' them...this could be from too much speed into the turn, improper direction outward, pulling to long, riding flat into the turn and a handful of other possibilities...

[Than_Bogan]

@Deke Both sides, fairly equally, although when we were really working on it her 1/3/5 got better while 2/4/6 didn't really. (Now I can't recall which foot forward, though, so that probably doesn't help!)

 

@jayski Great ideas. Some form of losing line tension could be at work here. I'll try to look harder for those mistakes and/or symptoms next time.

 

Her dad is a less advanced skier, and has been trying to get her to start her turn sooner, which I frankly think is completely wrong. In fact, you've just made me realize that maybe she is starting it too soon, such that she loses line tension while still going outbound. I'll have to look for that.

 

Man, I gotta get some video!!

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan the girl you are talking about is a righty.

[Joeprunc]

From a novice...Is she coming back to the handle too soon? Does it get better or worse at different speeds?

[gregy]

@than_bogan see brady's notes under Terry Winters is awesome

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/8609/terry-winter-is-awesome

[ktm300]

Let her ride in the boat and watch you ski. Show her what she is doing and then show her what you want her to do.

 

We encounter this some and I call it standing there waiting for something to happen. The something is usually for the boat to run away and create a tight line. Teach her to visually pick a path around the buoy and commit to it. Learn to turn without relying on a tight line for balance. Once she starts the turn keep moving through it and continue the turn all the way to the wakes. Tail wind is the perfect training tool for this. Must keep the ski moving through the turn and cannot expect or rely upon the line to be tight at the finish. Stand there and go flat and the ski just speeds up headed down course. Keep the arc moving and she gets rotational deceleration and picks up the line when she picks up the line. The other thing that seems to cause this is being surprised by the turn buoy meaning that there was no path planned going into it. We also use the imaginary one ball a lot which is 10 feet before and wider than the real buoy. Turning the imaginary buoy gets em to preturn. I used to tell my daughter that I'd give her $100.00 to run over 1 ball on the way back in. She never got the $100 . Kids are concerned that they haven't cleared the buoy and ski too far down course to ensure that they have.

 

The first paragraph may be the only relevant one...

[Chef23]

@ktm300 I know the girl Than is talking about and I think this might be good advice.

 

On the other hand my son used to have the opposite problem he turned inside of 1 ball on his opener at regionals once. This was tied to a different problem not having enough width at his gate but he certainly wasn't slow to turn.

[John Brooks]

Another thought is to explain to her she needs to always be on an edge. So crossing the wake on edge, then transition to the other edge to turn around the buoy. I have seen this discussed and sometimes gets the lightbulb going.

[ToddL]

I recall an article in Waterski / Waterskier Magazine (can't recall which) where an elite skier (can't recall who) suggested a drill where the skier basically lets go of the handle right after the edge change and then rides the turn until the ski sinks into the water. The concept was to learn how far the ski can continue to turn around between you and the boat before it loses steam. It also aligns with the concept of keep "turning" until you reach the white water.

 

In this skier's case, such a drill might be eye-opening. It allows the skier to make a controlled, balanced turn with no real consequence at the conclusion. Thus, there is no real risk. Of course, the quality of the wake crossing, the timing of the edge change still affect the outcome during the turn, but the turn is still just the turn... Ideally, the skier can do this drill until they can carve the turn with decent form/stance and come close to back-siding the buoy. Then, when they keep the handle it should be familiar.

 

The obvious cost of this drill is that you need a very patient boat crew and no one on the dock tapping their feet. Maybe get a trick skier driver since they are used to lots of falls during practice sets...

[Wish]

Great thread. Gonna use some of this as mine tends to stand flat in the "pre turn" and wait. This discussion also sparked the thought of telling her we are always turning. There is no straight/flat. As soon as the edge change happens, say going into 2 ball, we are at that moment and not after 2 ball turning for 3. And that means the turn is all the way through the wakes until the next edge change. It may not always feel like a turn, especially crossing the wakes, but it is. Hmmm? May have to listen to my own advice.

[jwroblew]

I think I've seen her ski, she tends to drop her hips back at the finish of the turn, fix that and you will likely fix the hesitation

[Chef23]

@jwroblew so if we talked about keeping the inside hip moving forward in the turn that might help? You have seen her ski it is the middle of the sisters.

[Jordan]

I would try the Seth Stishr Whips drill. Maybe even a modified version where she went edge to edge repeatedly on one side of the wake, then the same on the other side.

 

The point would be to get her to trust that you can go from edge to edge continuously... And to trust that the ski will come back underneath her.

 

I suspect that the flattening out thing is because she doesn't really trust that the ski will be back underneath her at the end of the turn.

 

Encouragement and more skiing will get her there soon enough.

[A_B]

Maybe her ski is behind her or she is staying upright too much, and she may benefit from moving the ski out in front of her with hips pushed forward and knees moved forward on the ski. This is a much stronger position to finish in.

[woolly110]

what about getting to to look to the next buoy/bank to get body going where head is looking? once on edge then look towards boat/pole? We do it alot on bikes if you dont think you can make the corner drop head into corner to get body moving.

[jwroblew]

@Chef23 keep her hips moving through the turn, also she tends to pull a little long, get her to trust turning early and the hesitation might go away. Also she shares that ski with her older sister, and they are opposite feet forward, she my need her own ski.

[ricar116]

It's amazing how personally applicable some of these topics are.This is the story of my course life. You guys are great!Thanks for the good stuff.

[elr]

How about "point your knees at the ball" - it has worked for some of the folks I have coached.

[ToddL]

@elr - I agree. It seems that beginners want to steer the ski with their head and shoulders usually resulting in the shoulders infront of the feet and butt behind posture. Rather, they should steer the ski with their hips and knees. The head and shoulders should follow the hips not drive them.

 

The front knee points where the ski should be headed. Moving the hips forward and to the direction your want to go really works. So around apex at 1-ball you are moving your hips forward and to the left causing your center of mass to move in the direction you want to go (back to the other side of the boat's path). Also, this allows the ski to come around with you and allows you to start the lean in a better position, too. This concept is easiest to visualize when you see a pic of a skier who is counter-rotated and turning the on-side.

 

http://waterskimag.com/files/2011/07/letgo3_ss.jpg

Notice that the head is not the first thing to turn, but rather the hips have made a motion inward toward the centerline. This increases the turning edge angle and brings the ski around.

 

 

[ToddL]

and then there is this... ???

@Horton

[Horton]

@toddl that is checking your spray

[MattP]

@ToddL I think there was a college co-ed ski team on shore...

Do as monkey says not as monkey does

[Ed_Johnson]

No, I truly believe it was the Kilo Kai delivery truck showing up !!!

[DUSkier]

@Chef23 @jwroblew just throwing something out there, do you think a head turn like April would help?? I know when I first started skiing the course it worked for me, BUT it then caused me to overturn down the track.

Hope you guys are skiing well =)

JWrob looks like our profile pics are the same turn buoy =)

[Ed_Johnson]

@DUSkier...I highly recommend against that because it will easily result in you dropping the inside shoulder and over turning.

 

Just recently spent a week skiing with Pro-Skier Joel Howley, here on my Lake in Orlando...We discussed this, and his recommendation was to never look past your extended arm...In fact, I was focused on looking down course during the turn off the apex...He noticed I was not keeping my shoulders in line with the rope at the apex.. His advice was to not look at anything, but concentrate on the move itself in forming the C Position at the apex and keeping the arms and shoulders in line with the rope, before dropping the hip in off the apex...Really helped with the problems I was having with my 38...It was great advice.

[DUSkier]

@Ed_Johnson I do understand this, but have seen this work well for a lot of girls,, not so much boys. I would guess at different body shapes being the reason. April does not turn her head past the rope but she does do it very early in her turn. My guess is that this would help our subject commit to the turn and stop the standing up. It is also very simple for a student to achieve without having to think about where hips, shoulder etc are.

I do like Joels explanation of this though and will be thinking about it on my off side as soon as we get back on the water here, single figures Celsius here today =(

[bb85025]

OK since I happen to have video for this here are two links:

A made pass at 30 MPH 15 off http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caYqY7tV1hI

A missed pass at 32MPH 15 off

 

BTW her best so far this year is 3 at 22 off 32 MPH

 

The unfortunate side is that she is off the water for a month, so we will have to gather comments and give then a try.

Thanks for all the help here.

BB

[alex38]

I am gonna throw my $.02 in here cuz I've watched these girls rip a bunch of tournaments and the progression is mind boggling! Fierce competitors as well.

When I watch the video it seems she slows the ski down a little more with her back foot after apex, it bogs for a sec. But, like in many instances in slalom, this could be due to another situation prior, causing that to happen and that's where a more advanced skier would have to interject.

The other tips in this thread look promising too, but maybe shifting weight over front foot, or some front foot pressure? Amazing skiing!