Baller behindpropellers Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 If you own a ski lake.... How is it set up as far as insurance,membership, rules...etc? Thanks, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 Number one, I can't afford insurance. I fallback on AWSA (foolishness) and a personal umbrella policy. I don't know how much good it would do in litigation, but everyone who skis here must be a member of AWSA (OK, USAWS) and also must sign a waiver and hold harmless agreement. I have a number of rules. But most are just common sense and common courtesy. I'll be glad to give you details, just email me at the address listed in my profile, if you want deeper info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jdarwin Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 Stuff I have learned? It's more work than you could ever imagine and after 10 years of ownership, I'm seriously considering selling. Lake ownership is a young man's profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 @JD is right. When you own a lake, you stop being a skier and start being a lake owner... Members feel they are your boss, and regular skiers think they own the place. Everybody has great ideas you should implement ASAP, and are quick at criticizing everything, but nobody wants to help if asked. I am much younger than @JD and @OB, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LakeOneSkier Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 With each new member you add into the lake, the politics increase exponentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 We are lake renters...it's not an excavated joint and all...but no hassles, no members, no other boats, wind protection...and cheap. We had been paying between two of us $750 annually to have the dock/lift/boat there. This year owner told us not to pay anymore. We don't have ZO, but could, and for a period of time each spring we deal with weeds. I can't imagine all of the work the true lake owners go thru...unless you are loaded, own the property outright, and invite select folks or ski partners over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller nam1975 Posted July 8, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm not an owner, just a lake renter with some others..... My thoughts would be keep it bare bones. Dock Boat ramp Port a john BYOB..Bring your own boat Boathouse,club boat, shelter pavilion, showers, etc all equal more work. Or find a good handyman or the like to act as a site manger and figure his compensation. Prolly help if he doesn't ski...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller CReckard Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 As an owner we made the decision to keep it for our family. On occasion (only a couple times a year) we will invite others who have expressed a desire to ski at our lake. We don't charge them anything, sometimes they will bring gas. This way, I am the boss and can do whatever I want and only have to answer to my boat driver (wife). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 @OB is the best dictator any club could ask for. It is a thankless job I do try to thank him often. Thanks Jorge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 If there are multiple owners, it is best to have a high level written agreememt that trumps everything else. I have co-owned my lake with 2 high school friends for 30 years. We don't have houses at the lake, and only two of us ski any more, the third guy is more of a silent partner. We all split expenses and discuss if we need any major irregular expense. If we were to build a pole barn, and only two guys share cost, they reap the benefit of use and value it brings to the property. Keep maintenance to a minimum, get big toys, like commercial mower and backhoe, and if you open up to a ski club, make required work hours a part of it. Some will volunteer, and others will look to get out of it. If they don't work, they pay more. The biggest issue we have faced and are facing is our kids and their friends using it. The girls aren't too bad, but the boys.......well, lets just say we were all young once. Discuss with your insurance exactly what your personal umbrella does and does not cover. Unless you personally have your name on the title, you may find your personal umbrella is pretty leaky. We have our lake owned by a LLC and needed commercial insurance to have coverage. Also bump your boat liability to the max, that will be the first line of defense, unless someone is just swimming and drowns. The next chapter for us is a succession plan. You may want to co-own with your buddies, but NOT their kids or surviving spouse. Looking back, I have gotten way more enjoyment out of it than grief, but there are days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeSkiAvantTout Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 The missus is American and we bought into a family lakeside "cottage" (by British standards a mansion LOL) to give us a US base that we could also potentially ski from. All done via an LLC, great ownership vehicle I must say when it comes to multi-owner assets, simple to set up and operate too. Have a formal useage agreement running alongside it which is pretty essential IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrJones Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 First. If you are going to do it, own it outright. Dictatorship is a much cleaner management structure. Second. Don't. MUCH easier to buy a membership/lot on someone else's lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lottawatta Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 Lake Ownership is not nearly as glamorous as it sounds. Be prepared for HUGE amounts of work and less ski time. I was able to ski WAY more before I owned a lake, and that was with having to fight the river taking slalom courses and jumps over the dam every year. Never would I ever even consider having more than 1 partner in ownership or lease of a ski lake. Multiple partners never work out, and many times a single partner doesn't work out. If you let people ski, don't charge them a dime. It is simply amazing how much help you get from someone who wants to ski at your lake when they aren't charged anything. Once money is exchanged, not only does your legal liability change, but your member's expectations change. If you do charge them, be prepared to be expected to fix everything from a buoy floating to high to making sure the port o let has toilet paper. Don't ever expect that you can have a club that rents a lake and you are going to share the responsibilities evenly, it never works. Someone HAS to be in charge, and that person has to be prepared to be the arsehole. For insurance, since USAWS sold out it's members for the interest of the insurance company, I no longer make the members join USAWS, nor do I join as a club since there is no longer any benefit for me. I make all members name me as additional insured on their boat owner's policy and set a high minimum liability limit. I also carry an umbrella policy. As far as rules, make them short and simple and expect to have to remind the members of the rules from time to time. Someone has to be the bad guy. My rules are that each membership gets you one spot in the rotation. If you are a single member, you get to ski every time your rotation comes up. If you are a family of four, one of the four gets to ski when their rotation comes up. A rotation consists of 6 passes of slalom or tricks or 3 jumps. Keep membership small enough so that time is not an issue - EVEN if this means you don't have enough members to cover your costs of running the place. I have a rule that I run my lake by: I will keep membership low enough that every member WILL get to ski at least two sets in the evening after work, and as much as they want on the weekends. IF for some reason they lollygag in between skiers or boats, it will be their own fault they don't get to ski two sets in an evening. It will never be because there are too many people waiting to ski. Bottom line: For me, I would MUCH rather pay $4200 a year to someone else for a membership to their lake than to own my own and have 7 members at $600 each. Believe it or not, I would come out ahead in the end dollarwise and timewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 We had a club with a BYOB rotation policy. Charged like $550 year and everyone paid the boat owner gas money, me included. We wanted to bump to $600 and hold a couple days open for the other owner to take his kids IF they wanted. Rarely did he use it. All the members complained and the club disbanded the next year. 6@$600 was not worth the hassle from an owner's perspective. Now I go whenever I want and pick between 3 lakes. I stopped all USAWA insurances as well a couple years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 I'll jump back in and agree with most everyone else. What once I thought was a dream come true, is for a good part of the time, my biggest nightmare. Work is never ending and I've found that having members share the work is more work for me. For example mowing/weed eating ..... I can do it quicker by myself than the time I used to spend maintenancing the equipment that members tore up. You're practically stuck at home all summer, much to my wife's dismay. She hates ski season because of the demands on my time. I'd love to sell my lake and pay triple what members pay just to show up and ski then leave and forget it. Right now our membership is down and barely making expenses, but the mediation and human resources management load is much lighter. Oh, and I don't ski as much as I'd like due to lack of time and/or just too tired. And I'm just getting too old for this, repeating what Joe said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 If you do this, never sell lots to anyone, that opens up a whole new can of headaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 If you do this, never sell lots to anyone, that opens up a whole new can of headaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 But @skidawg, that eliminates almost all liability. If you don't have to charge membership you can rely on the Outdoor Recreation Act to absolve liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 @skidawg, I am selling lots but lots are totally separated from lake ownership, with a very strict ruling. Basically, if you have a lot you have the view, but that's it. You cannot use the lake, swim on it, build or do anything on the first 10m from the water line, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 @ral, our lake is set up the same way. Lake view lots, have to pay club membership to have water access! You would be surprised at how people can for go rules for their own personal desires! I have been fighting this stuff for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 I used to have a membership in Waterloo, IA on a quarry site owned by the local show ski team. They practiced two nights a week and sometimes had a weekend comp there. Other than that the lake was open. Cost about $100 per season and could run my boat. If not it was 2 bucks per tenth on the hour meter of one of the club boats. Now if that wasn't a screaming deal to be responsible for no maintenance, show up an ski??? Geez. Was even a beach for the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 @skidawg, in our case, we do not have membership. Just the owners and the rest ski on a per set basis. I agree, though, that most people consider that rules are good BUT that they are entitled to skip the ones they do not like. Funny enough, here in Chile we have ultraconservative people that are against divorce legislation but are divorced. When asked why, they say that their case was "special"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller behindpropellers Posted July 9, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 6balls- I skied on that lake. I think we won D2 nationals in 2004 at that site. Nice lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 I know that full ownership is ideal, but it is costly. One thing, though, you should try to do for sure is retain control. My late partner's family and I have 60% ownership, so full control in practical terms. Although we chose the partners carefully, if we had surrendered control situation would be REALLY tough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 @behindpropellers yes D2 nationals was there in '02, the year I left. The bought that whole joint for somethink like $20K after the interstate was built. I like it for slalom, good wind protection from south or north, east and west not so much. Nice length set ups both ends. No backwash when water low enough. @razorskier1, @razorross3 and myself all threw down a tourney PB last time we skied there. Was my first tourney just weeks after falling into M3 and thus 34 mph. Ran 4 @38 overturning 4 on a pass I had absolutely bagged, Jim ran it. Think young Mitch ran his first 22 off 36 mph at that one. That's a good 5 years ago now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrJones Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 LeonL is right. It is a butt load of work during the summer. My favorite thing is to go to a tournament and get away for the weekend. The best senario would to buy 20 acres, of which 18 are water. Lots of grass is a PITB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted July 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 9, 2013 What @MrJones said. Keep the landscaping to a minimum. We were forced to plant and irrigate 4 acres of grass and trees around our lake because of how barren the land was before we started. I spend at least 2 hours on the mower every weekend, not to mention weed wacking, sprinkler repair, fertilizing, and on and on and on. I love having my own house on our lake, but it is a ton of work. For me though, it is totally worth it, and I'm glad we built it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrJones Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 2 hours Marco??? And this seems like a lot??? You need to visit Osage Lake:) I have a good bit of acreage in pine trees and am going to plant more this winter. Thankfully the wife is liking the new zero turn and I have kids approaching the age of useful slave labor. Will be a while before they can run the tractor/shredder. Of course Leon's comment about spending more time repairing equipment than you save may come into play, but I am hopeful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rodltg2 Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 So by the time I can afford to buy my own lake , hopefully one of you guys who are to tired of it will sell it to me on the cheap ! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I know the owners of several lakes. I notice they spend maybe 60? times more time mowing, and maintaining than skiing. I help out when I can but members/guests amount to tourists really- We aren't there to see even a fraction of the work involved- nor experience first hand, the 'charms' of finding, fixing or financing busted stuff virtually every day.- If you know a lake owner, treat them nice, thank them frequently, and buy them beer- they are busting their butts for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 I seem to keep thinking of, or being reminded of, additional thoughts about lake ownership. Unless you're a jumper DON'T LET ANYONE talk you into getting a jump. Talk about a labor and money pit. I didn't do this, but alway consider an exit strategy. Despite what you young guys think, you'll get old and at least two things will happen regardless of good basic health: 1. Someday you'll quit skiing. 2. Someday you won't be up to the task of keeping the place up. I've owned a lake for 18 years, I'm 66 years old and don't have an exit strategy. When I no longer ski (some say what I'm doing now barely counts as skiing) and can't maintain the property (just about there) I'll need to sell to be able to buy a nice little retirement home with wheelchair access ability in case I take many more OTFs. Despite what some may think, there just isnt a lot of buyers knocking down the door to buy a hole in the ground that holds water. All this to say think long and hard about what seems like your dream. Make prudent plans. Unless you all think I'm bitter and jaded, I've had a lot of fun, but if you can ski at someone else's private site DO IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller waterskigirl Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 17 years ago our egos got the best of us... I agree with the guys, they have given up the real deal in this lake ownership world. True words of wisdom from those who have lived it! It is more of a commitment then one can imagine...Best thing we ever did was not take on any partners we have had enough battles over the years with the two of us trying to agree on something let alone adding another opinion. That said, the whole enchilada has been on us and that has certainly not always been fun either...changed everything! Result great... road... long, uphill and Very bumpy! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrJones Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 Just so this is not all negative. We started skiing yesterday about 4:30. Three kids who are all now tricking and slaloming. I took two rides and my wife took one plus the kid's six. 9 unrushed sets and we were in the house eating at 8:00. No way we could do this as a family in a normal club situiation. (Of course I didn't get any grass cut yesterday) Actually that is kind of the deal. The difficulty is relaxing and enjoying your blessing insead of sitting in the boat looking at the grass, shoreline issues, tractor that needs work, etc., and stressing about it. Hopefully I am learning patience and perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skidawg Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 @MrJones.....shouldn't you be fixing backs right now????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 @MrJones - The 2 hours I was referring to is only the time I am sitting on a lawnmower mowing the grass I am in charge of. On top of that is the multitude of other chores that go along with being a lakeowner, like shorline erosion control and repair, irrigation system maintenance, tree pruning and planting, weed control, dock maintenance, etc, not to mention the fact that we own and maintain 65 acres of adjacent alfalfa fields. I would guess that more than 90% of my daylight hours at the lake is spent working, and less than 10% is skiing or relaxing. And that IS a lot of work! I have no complaints though. I love the time I spend there. BTW- I would love to see pictures of your lake. As a lake builder myself, I can truly appreciate all of the work it took to make it happen. I have spent 7 of the 10 years our lake has been in existence working every spare moment to build the lake and my house. Now I get to maintain it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 Lots of good information on this thread! THANKS!!! From reading each response on this thread there seems to be some common points (in no certain order): 1. Work - a lot of time is invested in keeping the place up and looking decent, maintaining everything you worked so hard to do in the first place. 2. Partnership(s) - be careful!! and in fact if you can own it outright by yourself your better off since you won't have to answer to anyone else. 3. If you are starting a ski club - this could be more trouble than it is worth if you want to enjoy skiing and not worrying about things that need done or liability. However since you are the owner of the lake, make your rules clear, enforce your rules, and keep it simple! 4. Having the ability to ski on your own lake without any interuptions (ie other boaters/skiers etc) and enjoying what you have worked so tirelessly for? And what @mrjones said? PRICELESS INDEED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 @OB -- I'd be with you in a heartbeat if I lived in ATL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrJones Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 Skidawg: I am fixing them as fast a I can. Checking in on BOS is my mental break from listening people complain about their backs, broken ankles, torn achilles, etc... :) Marco: Just jokeing with you. Not trying to compare grass cutting loads, but it's all relative. I am cutting 5 ac with a zero turn 1x per week and cutting 30 ac with a bat wing shredder 1x per month. 2 hours in the seat doesn't seem like a big deal to me. (Unfortunately the farmer who was cutting mine for hay bailed on me this year. Pun intended) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted July 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 Mr Jones- Sounds like you have your work cut out for you (pun also intended). We have 4 total acres of grass, but our other owners cut some as well. Just got a zero turn last year, and that helped speed things up. Still, plenty of work to do beyond the mowing. Heading down to the lake right now to prepare for the weekend tournament we are hosting starting Friday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller behindpropellers Posted July 10, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted July 10, 2013 All excellent advice. Here is where it I am: The lake is going to be purchased by our family, its going in an LLC of course. There won't be partnership issues with the ownership so I have that covered. There is currently a club that uses it. The club is going to remain at the lake, probably will need to add a few members to make the numbers work. There are no deeded rights to use the lake. Not much grass to mow, maybe an acre. The club already has a mower for that. I understand that it will take effort as far as work and relations amongst the membership. The shoreline(s) of the lake will need work over time and I think we can just do a bit each year. The city is behind us on the whole thing. Its got great potential for tournaments due to its proximity to highways and ample spectator parking and viewing area. Everything seems to be going pretty good with the whole deal and seems to be a win for everybody involved. Nothing good in life is ever free or easy, thats how I look at this deal. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronski Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 We got 3 lakes but 37 members who all got their own ideas about stuff (read politics/ego city). Dues cover most of the maintenance but we have had a few assessments that would make you sell your boat. We started in 83 as a 3 event training site. Now, we are a 90% tubing/wakeboard site with giant tuna boats that destroy boats, docks and shoreline and on holidays rules go out the door and it is total chaos. I pretty much ski during the week. It is one heck of a better place than public waterways though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller SkiJay Posted July 11, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 11, 2013 Stay ahead of the weeds. They are easier to control before they get out of hand. This can be taken literally for the underwater weeds, and metaphorically for the occasional bad apple club member who won't play well with others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ktm300 Posted July 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2013 Get grass cut in a fraction of the time: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/07/17/honda-mean-mower-hits-60-mph-in-4-seconds-cuts-to-130-mph-w-vi/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted July 18, 2013 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2013 @behindpropellers, I'm not a crazed paranoid fanatic, but be careful when a government entity "gets behind you". If its in close proximity to the city limits, watch out for annexation. Next step may be the council seeing an advantageous possibility for a city park, and then.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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