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Revelation About Developing a Better Stacked Possition


SkiJay
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Water skiing must be one of the most difficult sports of all to improve in. First, it is physically impossible to spend hours and hours practicing, and second, it's nearly impossible to override bad habits in mid-pass. It all happens too fast.

 

All winter long, I've been focused on drills and shadowing the course (skiing course-width in the course but 10' before the buoys) in an effort to develop a better stack out of my off-side turns. I've used video on every pass and had occasional checkups with coaches. The good news is that I've developed the best stack of my skiing life and am totally pumped about it. The bad news is that as soon as I try to take it to the balls, it's right back to my monkey-on-a-football ways. It's been making me crazy, and I bet you have a similar story to tell about something in your technique.

 

This morning I was lying in bed asking myself, "Why does my technique revert to old bad habits when I have video proof that I can ski with great form while shadowing the course." Then it hit me ... Pavlov's Dog. Ring a bell every time you feed a dog, and eventually, the dog will salivate when you ring the bell with or without food. Salivation becomes a conditioned response. More specifically, the bell is the "trigger" and the dog's act of salivating is its subconscious "conditioned response" to that trigger.

 

For over 1,000 sets, I've been engraining an automatic conditioned response to seeing a little red ball coming at me, and it hasn't all been good. The trigger is the approaching ball, and the bad part of my conditioned response is to over-crank the turn and lose my hips behind me. I'm aware that it's happening, and I've tried everything in my power to do it differently, but this now deeply conditioned response plays out too fast for my conscious mind to override it. You hear a loud bang, and you duck. Bang = trigger, duck = conditioned response; you don't get to override this auto-response by thinking your way around it.

 

Knowing this is, to me, the key to fixing it. I have video proof that I can ski nice and stacked, so the REAL problem isn't my technique, the REAL problem is reprogramming my long standing, deeply rooted, conditioned response to seeing an approaching off-side ball.

 

First, I have to continue to thoroughly engrain the feel and act of making properly stacked off-side turns until they feel totally natural; they have to be fully automatic without any conscious thought as to how I'm doing it. This will require a lot more repetition and constant video feedback. It also means that for a while to come, I'm better off shadowing the course than running it while engraining these new fundamentals. And I'll have to commit to this process like a golfer giving up some play to make time for meaningful practice on the driving range and around the putting green.

 

When I'm sure that I can exit my off-side turns nicely stacked automatically, without having to focus on them, confirmed with video, then I should have a much better chance of overriding my long standing habitual response to the off-side ball/trigger. Maybe I'll have to start back into the course with some drills like only running the off-side buoys, or slowing the boat down, or whatever it takes. I see no point in pressing on in the course until I can ski nicely stacked on both sides.

 

I've tried forcing myself to ski differently in the course and gone as far as I could that way. I'm hoping that taking some time out from ball chasing to fix a performance-limiting problem will open the door to a new level of skiing more quickly than just "trying harder." But that's not the revelation; the revelation is that I now know I'm not trying to change my technique, I'm trying to reprogram what I do in response to seeing an approaching off-side ball!

 

I'm stoked!

 

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I'm no expert skier and probably more of a beginner course skier. However, my experience has been this... It's not skiing around the balls or consciously biting off too much at the ball even though I'm guilty of that on occasion. The biggest thing I've noticed is when I'm in open water, I can only pretend where the balls should be. This means that I'm always ready for it and always make a proper turn. When I ski the course at a slower speed, the balls are where they should be and I have plenty of time to make a smooth turn and get into position. When the balls aren't where they're supposed to be because I'm late, dumb things happen.
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@SkiJay Why not shadow only 4' early and then round your last off-side buoy? You get two turns off course, then the last one you're already early, so round the buoy. There shouldn't be any reason to draw upon the old habits, because you will be coming into that buoy nice and early. That way you are re-training your mechanics of rounding a buoy on that side...
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Visualization!

 

To re-program an auto response factor, I believe one must have an absolute Clear and concise mental picture of the correct version and then rehearse it over and over as absolutely Vivid as one can See. (i.e. at night in Bed, on the lunch hr., etc...) When the Mental video picture is rolling, it can become so Real that one can actually not only "See" but often "Hear" and/or "Smell" things that coincide with the actual event!

 

As in Golf, many w/e warriors tend to consistantly "Slice" the ball off the Tee, or they consistantly tend to hit the Ball into the water on the Par 3... Before one can ever begin to overcome those shortcomings they Must absolutely be able to "See" the Ball flying straight down the fairway and landing in right where it should. They need to be able to see the Ball confidently clearing the water and landing in the middle of the Green.

 

The next step is truly Believing in the Vision. Like the Buoy's, it is not enough to do it all correctly @ the Driving Range. One must See it and Believe it whole Heartedly, w/o question and w/o hesitation...

 

You know the proper Turn and how to do it. Now, "see" (really see it) the Buoy in your visualization process while off the water and then also begin to "see" (really see it) the Buoy while on the water Shadowing or free skiing. Along with a solid visual, you could also create a "New Trigger" mechanism coming into the Buoy. It could be a word, or phrase, a physical act like exhaling, or whatever works for you... Just like Golf and the Water Hazards, the Buoy is just a thing and it's only our good or bad programming that give the thing any power.

 

Exceptional Visualization is one of the biggest factors that separate the Real Play makers (Michael Jordon, Manning, Tiger...) from all the other good Athletes...

 

ummmm, Tigers visualization process seperated him from all the other players, his Wife and Butt Load of $$$!

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@SkiJay: I fully understand and sympathize with your problem..I suffer from the same disease as you and have had to deal with it for years. The problem comes from trying to institute New Techniques to overcome years of set habits. The frustration comes from seeing yourself do it Free Skiing on the Video, then revert back to the old habits in the course.

 

Visualization: It is not the total Cure but it is great medicine !! I spent years doing this with Airplanes for Aerobatic Competition, where six judges would watch every move you made, doing 22 maneuvers in 4 mins. in a 3300' Cube, from the surface to 3300'. Upside down, backwards, end over end, -6 to +10 G's...Same doing Airshows, like Oshkosh, with 100,000 people, plus the FAA watching every move you made..Bottom line, you had to Pre-Visualize every move, with compensation for wind, because your LIFE and Pilots License was on the line every time.

 

I have applied these very same Visualization Techniques to skiing, and it really works when Free Skiing, because you can devote FULL Concentration...Add the Buoys, and that is the Trigger for the "Subconscious" to want to revert back to where it is comfortable.

 

So what is the Cure ???

You already know you can Physically do it, so...... "Retraining the Subconscious" ....to make everything a Reaction and not a Thought.

 

Best advice I ever got concerning this was from Mike Syderhoud, who told me to mix my course skiing with free skiing. The purpose to ingrain Muscle Memory into the Subconscious.

 

What I do is first to visualize in my mind exactly how I want to ski. It has to be a progression that flows from one move into the next...I go out to the course and pull out to the Right for the Gates and run the course from the opposite side..Still have the buoy line to see width and your opposite the turn buoys for timing...You have done away with the turn buoys in front of you, which are the trigger to the subconscious old habits....You are building Muscle Memory...On the return pass, try running the course using that Muscle Memory, with the buoys....Beware, it will probably only last for ONE PASS....Maybe only half of one pass..But as Mike told me, don't be frustrated, just repeat that process, until you can bring your course skiing, up to the level of your free skiing.

 

Reviewing this on Video, seeing yourself doing it right, gives you, what I call "Video Assurance."

It tells my subconscious I "CAN" do it and nothing bad is going to happen.

 

Sorry for the long rant but this is how I struggle with this problem and hope it may help you in some way.....ED

 

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Ed is right on, but @skijay I think you are limited in your free skiing by where you ski. You can't get the full advantage of free skiing in a six turn lake. If I were skiing with you I'd suggest that we put the boat on the trailer and drive over to the Butler Chain, or maybe even go over to Little Sand Lake and ski with Doug A. Bigger lake = more uninterrupted turns. If you can ski 60 turns in a six turn lake, you can probably ski 120 in a bigger lake with lots more turns between drops. Someone said you have to do something 10,000 before you are an expert at it. If that's true, you'll get your 10,000 faster free skiing on a big lake. It is also good for your conditioning.

 

I figured out the stacked position free skiing, so I know it can be done. I still remember the moment I got it. I remember exactly where I was , what I boat I was behind and who was driving, and it was 40 years ago.

 

By the way, I think blaming it on Pavlov is just a knee jerk reaction.

Lpskier

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Correction. It was Malcolm Gladwell who said you have to practice something for 10,000 hours to be (essentially) a world class expert. Nevertheless, I'll bet if you make 10,000 turns (taking less than 10,000 hours, or 16.6 ski boats if you turn them over every 600 hours), you'll be pretty darned good.

Lpskier

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@skijay ----Visualization does work, but I also think another issue could be at the heart of the problem. A nice turn in for the gates followed by a strong cut establishing a nice early line, but this can sometimes be negated if your eyes are searching for the buoy immediately/too early. Maybe not even your eyes searching for the buoy, but your brain telling you it's time to stand up and start to think about the turn because that orange buoy is coming. In other words, when you are free skiing there is no buoy to look/anticipate for, so you are likely to continue your perpendicular trajectory carrying more speed outbound and are less likely to stall the ski and drop your hips in the turn.

 

Something that has seem to help me is, to delay my thought about the upcoming buoy and delay my looking for that buoy in hopes that this translates to greater maintenance of direction, more time, and less freakoutness. You said it yourself, the trigger is the upcoming ball. Why not focus on reducing that trigger by purposely delaying your vision and your anticipation.

 

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Why not run a lot more slower passes to unlearn your buoy reflex? I'm not talking about your opening pass, but all the way up. If you pickup a few at 35 off normally, get the point where you can run it 4 times in a row, without the bad buoy reflex. Get several weeks in under your belt, and then only go up 1 mph, and repeat. What is a couple months if it unlocks the door?
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Thank you very much guys! There is a lot of very helpful stuff here and it's much appreciated.

 

@h2odawg79 I've been a heavy visualizer for nearly 40 years for ski racing, luge, aerobatics, and for superbike and car racing. I do a ton of visualizing for water skiing too, but for some strange reason, I've not had much luck with it. I suspect that I'm so good at practicing in my mind that I've done a lot of damage by visualizing misconceptions. My understanding of what makes an excellent pass has evolved significantly over the past two years, and so have my visuals, but your post made me realize yet another piece of the puzzle missing in my visualization work. I've only ever worked on body movements and timing, but left out the actual buoy itself. How wacked is that? As of today, my visualizations include the ball!

 

@DaveLemons I totally agree with you about the pre-turn. It's where everything is set up, and where I'm getting it right shadowing but wrong rounding the balls. The way I exit my off-side ball is a direct result of what I'm setting in motion late in the pre-turn, the zone @Mattewbrown is talking about above.

 

@Matthewbrown You nailed what's going on in my kitchen. Even when I nail my gate setting me up five feet wide of one ball at -32, if I'm shadowing the balls, the turn, body position and resulting acceleration is fabulous. But if I'm even intending to go around one ball, it all goes for s#it from the approach on through. I love what you are suggesting about delaying this "ball anticipation," but I'm not too sure how to go about that. I've had some luck if I key on keeping my chin up or looking way down course, but just knowing the ball is coming seems to trigger my junk.

 

@OB This ball triggered form breakdown gets worse as the rope shortens, but it happens at all lengths. I've tried limiting my skiing to my opening pass (-22) but without luck. I was going to try slowing the boat down a bit after a week or so of grooving proper technique while shadowing. I also noticed it's worse if I'm a little fatigued.

 

@Ed_Johnson It sounds like you're a pretty advanced aerobatic pilot--very cool and a very good place to hone visualization skills! I like Syderhoud's advice. I've actually noticed how I can get one or two good turns around my off-side balls after shadowing before things deteriorate. Instead of getting all depressed, it helps to know that in Mike's vast coaching experience, he can say that sticking with this alternation between shadowing and running the course will eventually help me make the full transition.

 

@lpskier You make a good point about free skiing in a bigger lake. Shadowing balls in the tournament lake has been helpful, but I can't count how many times I'm just getting into something and have to stop, only to not be able to recapture the magic on the return pass.

 

@AB Slowing down the boat is part of the plan for returning to the course after a week or so of internalizing this new off-side move (well "new" for me, everyone else seems to get it). And I like your suggestion to keep it slow until I own it to a degree. I already have four months into this project having backed out of the course back in November. I don't care how long this takes. I'm done forcing things in the course. It's so easy when I luck into a perfect pass. I want to own that before I go any further.

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@Matthewbrown Thank you for your offer to help. I'll put a video together and would appreciate receiving comments and suggestions on my skiing, but it risks taking this thread a bit off topic. My main goal with this thread is to share and explore the process of making a difficult change to deep-rooted subconscious reactions/habits.
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Okay @Matthewbrown, here it is. The video quality isn't great as it hasn't been my intention to put my skiing on display like this, but hopefully it's good enough that you can see what you are looking for. Thanks again for your help.

 

In the first segment, I'm shadowing the balls at 35 off. While my technique is far from perfect, it's moving in the right direction from where it was last fall. I'm aware that it's a hair narrow in this particular pass, but I can make it wider at will. I'm not going real hard on purpose so I can do daily 12 to 16 pass sets in an effort to make new habits through repetition. My main focus for now has been on keeping my C.O.M. moving through the off-side turn.

 

In the second segment, I'm rounding the balls at 32 off, and it's pretty typical of what happens to my technique as soon as I run the course. In most of my off-side turns, I over-turn, my head drops in, I lose my hips behind me, my hands come up, I bend my arms, and pull too long. I don't even care that I made the pass because I hate skiing in the course like this when I know I can do so much better when I can ignore the balls.

 

I feel like I need a psychiatrist more than a ski coach right now.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyKCb9zKm3g

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Just wanted to make one more point is the Visualization process. The remarkable (to me) thing about "Pavlov's Dog" is not so much in the Salivation, but the fact that Digestive enzymes begin to secrete and accompany the salivation. BEFORE THERE IS ANY ACTUAL FOOD PRESENT TO DIGEST! (talk about the power of the Mind!)

 

Why is this important? B/c in a similar way, Neuro tests have been run on World Class Athletes (Sprinters) who while doing strong Visualization, and found that they send the same Neural Musclar signals to all the Muscles recruited to Sprint while simply sitting in a chair! Sending the same Firing signals to the receptors, w/o actually being on the track or moving any body parts!

 

THIS is the other 1/2 of why Visualization is Paramount in "Changing your ingrained Auto response factor".

 

Also; w/o the Buoys in your prior Visualization Process, your image was not clear enough or not real enough. But more then anything, it lacked the Key element of your conscience trigger mechanism. Similar to practicing your Par 3 "Over the Water Shot" w/o Visualizing the Water and the feelings that accompany the sight of the Water...

 

Good Luck!

 

 

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Your video is great for us amateurs to possibly point out what's going on.

 

First, I don't believe (IMHO) that skiing the course narrow of the buoys is helpful.

 

Simply the geometry is all off. Your position in relation to the boat, the angle of the rope, the pull and the timing will be all askew. It in fact, will allow you to not pull as hard in the white water, not get a steep enough angle to get wide enough to reach the buoys and, as seen in your off side turns, allow you to loose angle, stand up on the ski and go down-course. All non-desirables and the more you do it the more these habits I believe will creep into your body's "positional memory".

 

I have a good friend that I ski with at our lake who does the same, runs the course at his difficult pass line length and speed and turns in early. I think he, like you, may be developing bad habits by really not skiing the course. I think free skiing, but going course width is much better and avoids the pattern of narrow skiing at speed.

 

A technique one of my coaches recommended (thanks Benoit Allard) is to ski the course at a slower speed but ski the right rope length and complete full buoys. In fact he had a skier he was coaching that was having difficulty at -38 (I wish!) so he had the young man drop to 32 mph and ski the course like he was at 36. This gave him the experience of learning the body position, timing in relation to the course and buoys, and effort involved in doing that challenging line length. I started doing it this way for my challengingly rope length of -35 at 34 mph.

 

I don't know about you guys but until I get to running -39 and -39, some rope lengths ski differently than others. I'm finding that in order for me to get a -35 ball I have to ski with more angle, more speed and start my turn earlier, VERY much different than what and how I do it at -28.

 

I was my time spent at -35 off at 30 mph that gave me better results.

 

Best of luck and visualize doing the course like Nate !

 

 

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@OB I think I'm already in trouble before the slack goes tight when rounding the balls. I pull too long, get slack and reach forward leaving my hips behind. Then I overturn, drop my head and get the slack hit trapping me in this compromised position.

 

Please feel free to add to this laundry list of issuesI and let me know if you see iissues in the shadowing segment to. I want all the practice I'm doing while shadowing right now to be as correct as possible .

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@GaryWilkinson I absolutely agree with you about the importance of maintaining course width while shadowing. Normally I shadow significantly wider than I'm capable of while rounding balls. I delete my training videos after a couple of days, and this is what I had on hand to share. I was purposely conserving energy in favor of volume, and it wasn't the best example of my technique while shadowing either, but it gets the point across: which is that when I decide to ski the balls, all my technical progress magically leaves my mind. Thanks for your take on slowing the boat speed. It sounds like there is a lot of support here for slowing the boat to take my new baby-fresh habits back into the course.
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Very observant @OB I do tend to ski late. However, it is usually more the result of a crappy turn at one-ball than a low energy gate. I can rip my gate, get tons of width and room, and still get tentative at one ball and therefore late for two, three, etc. But, you may have twigged something that could really help me here.

 

Maybe the key to taking my fledgling new habits back into the course isn't fixing my 1,3,5; maybe it's only fixing the gate through one ball, which not surprisingly is my off-side, and balls three and five will more easily fall into place. Here's where lots of quality visualization may help, right @h2odawg79, gate through one-ball, gate through one-ball, gate through one-ball ...

 

I once asked Andy Mapple what he thinks about before starting each pass. He said, "My gate through one-ball. The rest is automatic."

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Lots of more intelligent people on here than myself but my opinion is your onside is getting you in trouble. Every time you come ripping through the wake on your onside, you stay on your edge longer which forces you to make a fast edge change and a quick turn which is getting you into trouble. Even when you're shadowing for your gate, you're coming through the wake like there is no tomorrow and then you end making a hard turn at 1 that stands you up and kills your angle. Then you're forced to stay on your edge longer on your offside to get wide enough for 2 which compounds the problem because you realize you're late and you feel the need to stay down longer going to 3.
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Yup @Waternut. That's the pulling-long part I was referring to, which I think stems from feeling rushed to make up time after losing space at the previous off-side ball. It's nowhere near the issue while shaddowing.
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@skijay you actually look pretty good and I would say you are a lot closer then you think....yes you are pulling twice as hard in the 13m course pass, as you are in the 12m freeski pass which is part of the mental block you will need to work through to slow everything down, and I can see a little bit of long pulling here and there, but, If I was you I would just work on one thing.

 

Even on your freeskiing passes it's pretty apparent that you are not staying centered on your ski as you begin and finish your 1,3,5 turn. Your hips are up and your shoulders are back, it's a nice position, but you are a too far on the back of your ski.

 

Throughout the turn and mostly at the finish you are not moving your body towards the next buoy which would enable you to stay on top of the ski and keep your speed up. You are actually leaning back to the previous buoy you just came from, causing you to lose speed, shoulders dip and nearly fall. You are thereby forcing the ski to come between you and the boat too soon. Now, you have a heavy load to hold on to with no speed. The more centered you are on the ski, the longer you can keep the ski tip pointed downcourse, the more speed you will create and the easier it becomes to hold that direction into the next buoy.

 

Look at your 2,4 turn, it's perfect because you keep up with the ski and are centered. What do motorcycle racers do when coming into a turn, they lean to the inside.....they don't lean back on their bike and they don't lean straight forward either.

 

How do you fix this issue? First you have to be aware that you are even doing this, second you have to be able to slowly make some adjustments and either feel, see or be coached that it is indeed working. I struggle with this too, but by trying to keep my ski outside the buoy line for as long as possible(tip facing downcourse) and my shoulders open while leaning to the inside, not back....is what works for me.

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@Matthewbrown First of all, thank you for the kind words, they are much appreciated. I'm feeling way too blue and frustrated by all this lately. I'm actually very aware of my tendency to over-turn the ski and end up in the trunk. As I read your piece, I could actually hear your words coming out of Drew's mouth. We've been working on precisely that for at least a year. It's a LOT better than it used to be, but apparently, it's still a work in progress. I really appreciate you taking the time to describe what you see though, cause if nothing else, it confirms that Drew is not just telling me the same thing out of habit at this stage; it's because I really don't quite have it yet. I'm living proof that it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. Sigh .....
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@Matthewbrown Having ready your piece a few more times and compared the 1,3 side to the 2,4 side turns in the video, it's as plain as day now. I could tell that something seemed "off" on my off-side turns even while shadowing at my best, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for this!
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You live 4 houses down from Drew and have been skiing with him a lot! I am jealous. I skied with Drew a couple of times at his school and he is a great teacher. I am also thinking that you should just listen to him, he will get you to the promised land.

 

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@OB Great analogy, right down to spiraling in when you get it wrong. Haha! I get what you mean though. Interesting cue.

@rayn Drew is awesome. Not only can he talked the talk, he can ROCK the walk.

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My coaches get after me about not seeing the next buoy out in front of the boat as I finish the turn (cures head tipping too!), once turned, the buoy is 'behind' the boat- I (try to) look at a specific point on the boat- pylon, lift eye, near/far corner, whatever works, until I have croseed centerline. (Aim small, concentrate...)

But mostly, when the line goes tight, my mind goes blank.

There is hope though, I read that Pavlov's dogs did not salivate at the bell when they were not hungry- whatever that means!

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Spotting the ball ahead of the boat helps to keep me from taking too much angle out of the ball. After I do it for a while early in the season I no longer need as my degree of rotation becomes more consistent and I can work on other stuff.
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@Dusty & @OB Looking down the lake ahead of the boat or at the next buoy is the ONLY way I can keep my head level. The instant I don't consciously look down-course, my head drops in; talk about deeply ingrained habits. This is one of the things I can do fairly consistently while free-skiing but hardly ever while in the course and I've been working on this one for about a year. It's a perfect example of part of my conditioned response to skiing around a ball.
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Played around with visualization last night while doing some super skater kicks last night. (P90X2 workout - Plyocide) Basically it is a balance move where you stand on one leg, do a squat (with one leg going back and the same side arm going forward), then get back to vertical and do a kick. Involve all kinds of muscles and really works on balance. The tip was to focus on one spot.....that wasn't working for me, so instead I visualized completing the next rep, going through the movements. What do you know, it worked like a charm and I was stable/rock solid while breezing through the next reps. I gotta say - it works!
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Isn't it automatic to spot the ball in front of the bow? I have been told to look down the buoy line as I turn the ball but I have a hard time when I actually try to do it. I think its because I am looking across the front of the bow at the next ball so I can set angle.
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I was told that it didn't matter where I looked as long as my shoulders and the rest of my body were in the right position. However, I was told to look right at the pylon because (for me) if I did not, my shoulders would follow my turning head. It is so calming to me to pick up the next buoy early in my vision. April Coble is the best I have ever seen at being able to turn her head and get that early vision without allowing her head to turn her body with it. Something I intend to work on this year. Can swing like Jim Furyk if you can strike the ball like Furyk.
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