10 things to shorten the trip from Zero to 32 off

[Horton]

@ToddL I hold TW in VERY high regard but I skiers often come to false conclusions watching video of him ski.

 

I am somewhat exaggerating when I stay "straight". Parrish is the model. The mechanics are inescapable - as your back leg bends more than your front leg your center of pass moves backward.

[Horton]

I think this video is awesome 

[Horton]

@msuws

 

The bottom line is that you want your center of mass as forward as you can. Few skiers really get super far forward but we should. My solution to getting from Ass Dragging to centered is to simply straighten your back leg. No not completely straight but most of the way.

 

By the time you are trying to run 39 off you may develop some skills that involve bending forward at the ankle (Nate Smith and Terry Winter). Very few skiers do this and many who attempt to end up DRAGGING THEIR ASS. That is why I say just straighten your legs and be done with it.

 

[msuws]

This is about as stacked as I get. I always thought I was close but from what you're saying it sounds like I'm taking the wrong approach. Thoughts?

[MISkier]

@msuws, you need to get your hips up more. And, in doing that, the handle should also get closer to your hips. That will improve your stack.

 

There are many tips to get the hips up, but the one I received on BOS that resonated with me was "glute clench". That is, squeezing your butt cheeks together helps to force the hips up.

 

Stand tall on your glide before your turn in to the gate and push those hips up. If your hips are back during that glide, they will be all the way through the course.

 

Your arms are good and straight, but the hips being back is causing you to ride the tail of the ski and generating load instead of generating cross-course speed.

[jimski]

The last two weeks was spent focused on volume sets ,so today was the first intensity set day. Ran up the line from -15 to 2@32

The volume sets paid off

[jhughes]

I first ran 28 off in October 2014 so that's 8+ years of being able to run that pass. Only in the past year can I say I can run 32 with any consistency at all. Because of that, I'd say I've got a pretty fresh perspective on the difference between these two passes.

The difference is difficult to see for most coaches and difficult to understand for anyone who has been running 32 and shorter for a long time, or for most of their lives. Because of that the wrong advice is given most of the time by most people. Most people are coaching things that are a visible result of a largely invisible problem. Credit to @scoke for noticing this with my skiing.

You can't easily "see" line tension from the boat or "tell" how hard someone is pulling, but this is the issue that gets you at 32. You can "pull" at 28, and you cannot "pull" at 32. Oh, you might run an occasional scrappy 32 when you're pulling, but it'll be an event when it happens vs. an expected result.

People that have run short line for a long time "generally" have no idea how much longer-line skiers habitually pull vs. "lean and hold". You can't really see it when coaching but it prevents, most importantly, all pre-turn technique from occurring correctly, and resultant position out of the buoy as well. You can't get hips up, be tall, be level, be patient, or anything like that from spray to ball if you take rope tension behind the boat.

You can pull all you want and still run 28, so if you are struggling with green, STOP PULLING. Stop  denying that you are pulling, too. Take a comically, ridiculously less amount of tension through the gate and wake to wake. Ski with the ski and not the handle/rope. You likely have NO IDEA how LITTLE rope tension there should be behind the boat. When I figured this out, I started seeing it everywhere. Good skiers who ski big buoy counts stay still behind the boat and don't take barely anything through the line wake to wake. They finish the turn and hold. This "allows" any chance at doing anything correctly before or after the buoy.

FWIW, YMMV. I'm still working on this every set but I'd say it's the most important thing.
 

[Dano]

@jhughes    At -32 are you saying the rope load is decreasing in comparison to what you have been taking at -28? That is correct but I don't think the rope load required to run -32 is less than what is required to run -28.   From what you are describing.  It sounds like you have a tendency to really load up into the wakes, making it hard to manage thru CL as all that pressure has to be released by giving up your connection/stack, or moving to the inside too soon, or likely both of those things.  By attempting to "pull" less or reduce rope tension at -32 you are better able to manage things and stay stacked and connected which sets you up for that nice edge change and approach into the buoy.   I had a similar experience as you recently and spent a lot of time working at longer lines and learning to run them without "pulling".  It's still a work in progress and in fact my buoy count is lower than it was before.  The difference is that I am running right up to my PB nearly every set rather than just when the stars align. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dano

[RichardDoane]

@Horton  I'd like to see this discussion evolve into :  "10 things to shorten the learning curve of getting through 11.25m"

[jhughes]

7 hours ago, Dano said:

At -32 are you saying the rope load is decreasing in comparison to what you have been taking at -28? That is correct but I don't think the rope load required to run -32 is less than what is required to run -28.   

 

No, what I'm saying is that by far the biggest issue with the entire slalom learning curve is excess rope tension due to "pulling", usually with active arms throughout the course. This makes everything else impossible to achieve but it's very commonly overlooked.

You can get through yellow with this technique before you start hitting a wall. 

[scoke]

Skiers working through:-15/32mph-22off

 Squat and pull with muscles, shoulders are titled, "elbows pinned" to vest creating a dangerous hinge!!.

It’s a protective posture to:

“Keep from crashing”

“Help me pull to the next buoy”

“Have to run this pass”

“Crossing the wakes is scary”

28: forms better but usually skiers are skiing with their muscles not their frame. It’s doable at 28. Still some squat and pull action, bent arms and a$$ dragging across the boat.

32: have to start skiing with your frame and not pulling on the rope or fighting the boat with muscle power trying to cross the wakes. First line length which requires “loose lean, hold position and work the ski”. 

35: to own it, have to ski with your legs not your arms. Lots of arm sweeping, bent arms, handle sweeping at the buoy is typically done by guys not owning it and guys NOT skiing with their legs.

38: have to ski with your feet not just your legs

39: have to ski with your hands and your feet and your legs. 

41:??? Only Nate really knows!

Typically what happens is the previous learning block is trying to be deployed in the current block. That doesn’t work. “What it took to get here doesn’t allow me to get there” axiom directly applies. 

This is one of the biggest things holding skiers back as you have to retool or rescript for the next pass. 

You can’t just “ski better” or “ski more!”  That’s called junk buoys versus deliberate practice. 

Gratefully, Skiing at okeeheelee the last 10+ years 12 months of the year has been like a test bed or a magnifying glass. Watching all the skiers come and go, winter skiers, Yankees coming down. It’s a big fish bowl watching patterns emerge of success and failure. 

Focus on the next pass big rocks while being brutally honest and focused. Otherwise you’re running junk buoys, chasing minor details, chasing over-hyped silver bullet skis or flavor of the month coaching. 

(holy font issues watman, wth.)

[MDB1056]

Excellent timeless thread. Need to resurrect more of these from the archives, and have more like it . 

[scoke]

Now that I am down from 240lbs, folks have let me ride in the boat, dang IPA's. 

My above statements I put to the eye test on every skier (but not judging them verbally or other) but seeing if the theories held true.

Sure enough, all of the above held true as I saw all of the above. Classic pattern recognition. 

I got a couple of deep water starts in and a few of the items applied to myself as well. 

 

Still true.

 

But isn't that why we keep coming back? Why do we really ski? 

Edited April 5, 2023 by scoke

[Horton]

When coaching where I get lost is the following situation. 

• The skier understands what a stacked or athletic position looks like. The end goal is crystal clear.
• The skier has a decent stack into the first white water
• The skier is a broken hot mess by the second white water.  Hips back / elbows are bent / back ankle is very bent / ass is dragging 
• I am in the Panda pose

 

[travtitle]

21 minutes ago, Horton said:

When coaching where I get lost is the following situation. 

• The skier understands what a stacked or athletic position looks like. The end goal is crystal clear.
• The skier has a decent stack into the first white water
• The skier is a broken hot mess by the second white water.  Hips back / elbows are bent / back ankle is very bent / ass is dragging 
• I am in the Panda pose

 

As someone who does this often, I'm going to take a guess as to why:  I am pulling with my upper body instead of my lower (which does look like a stacked position), but the angle I have taken across the wake is untenable and by the time I have reached the second wake, I have separated from the handle and it is pulling me out of position. There is no way to keep a good position here because I have skied away from both the handle and the boat. 

[Dano]

I'm curious to see where this conversation goes.  Hortons comment  is very relatable to me.  I've been working to improve  and I have some thoughts on how to get there but I'm hoping maybe there will be some great tips here.

[MDB1056]

Again, great thread, and getting better. I condense much of this to lean & hold vs pulling.  Said another way, take the energy from the boat vs creating load by pulling. Keeping your arms straight is one of the essentials to getting this. Something Rossi teaches relentlessly (arms straight)       

[scoke]

25 minutes ago, Dano said:

I'm curious to see where this conversation goes.  Hortons comment  is very relatable to me.  I've been working to improve  and I have some thoughts on how to get there but I'm hoping maybe there will be some great tips here.

SQUAT AND PULLERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!! (while throwing a fist while squatting over the fin block with bent arms) 

 

 

Seriously, I've posted 3-5 replies in threads about this concept versus "loose and lean, fight your mind, dance with the boat. let the ski slip through the water. DONT pull yourself across the course." ZERO OFF.

 

Back in the day, perfect PASS and the hand driving, SQUAT and PULL was the name of the game. Those guys are stuck now and very stubborn. They'll make all kinds of excuses or fight you. Meanwhile, they aren't running any new buoys.

 

 

Unfortunately, with the website update, the search feature doesn't go back after September of 2022 by author. I would provide links to the threads with quite a bit of breakdown but alas.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by scoke

[Horton]

@scoke squatters may have gotten away with more under Perfect Pass but it was NEVER a good idea. 

I know that when am skiing well the distance from my chin to my feet is far apart as I can manage all the way through the wakes. As I implied above I think almost everyone agrees this is ideal. The challenge that I am addressing is helping skiers who have deeply engrained bad habits.

 

All your old posts are there and easy once you find it 

 

 

[david_ski]

Great Tread.  My montra has always been 'tall at the ball', but today I will work and focus on working to be tall before the wakes and use my legs and not my arms @ 28 and 32off.

Edited April 5, 2023 by david_ski

[S1Pitts]

Cannot recall where I heard this, but, the thought of lifting your belly button as high off the ski as possible and leading with it across both wakes did it for me. I have not "folded" at either wake since.  It is the first thing that comes to mind after every turn. 

Thank you to who ever it was that put that out there.

[david_ski]

6 hours ago, S1Pitts said:

Cannot recall where I heard this, but, the thought of lifting your belly button as high off the ski as possible and leading with it across both wakes did it for me. I have not "folded" at either wake since.  It is the first thing that comes to mind after every turn. 

Thank you to who ever it was that put that out there.

I have heard lift your belly button high, and point your belly button where you want to go.

[scoke]

squat and pull baby!

october 14:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/36370-long-lineshort-line-are-they-really-that-different/page/2/#comment-822955

August 21:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/50608-how-to-keep-ski-on-edge-thru-the-wakes/#comment-839551

July 27:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/50487-building-consistency-gradual-speed-increase-question/#comment-837815

https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/49146-congratulations-jhughes-first-nationals-via-a-pb-at-regionals/#comment-445815

[travtitle]

4 hours ago, scoke said:

squat and pull baby!

october 14:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/36370-long-lineshort-line-are-they-really-that-different/page/2/#comment-822955

August 21:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/50608-how-to-keep-ski-on-edge-thru-the-wakes/#comment-839551

July 27:
https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/50487-building-consistency-gradual-speed-increase-question/#comment-837815

https://ballofspray.com/forums/topic/49146-congratulations-jhughes-first-nationals-via-a-pb-at-regionals/#comment-445815

Are you suggesting that since the issue has been addressed but people continue to struggle with it, those who persist must be stubborn? Comprehending a concept and physically executing it are distinct challenges. Once a skill is mastered, it often seems effortlessly simple and obvious. I often see people instructing water skiers with this same attitude--imagine trying to learn a difficult concept at the same time as dealing with someone in the boat ridiculing your effort. 

[scoke]

Reading my post I never found I used the word “stubborn”. 
 

More than likely used fixed mindset vs growth mindset. Probably should have use more words about a skiers ego, fear of failure, lack of belief in their coaches, lack of belief in themselves, lack of accountability, lack of faith in the process, lack of persona accountability, lack of trust. 
 

stubborn, that’s a victim word or blame word I don’t use versus  personal accountability  with action. Sorry. 
 

hence why if you look at the standard bell curve of total skiers scores, “average” it’s about 2-3@32 off or so. Mid-pack, there’s nothing wrong with that  

 

This is a mental sport of high accountability. Not a sport of gear solutions, physical and silver bullets of technique.
 

 Until a skier realizes it, they’ll be average and stuck for years. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by scoke

[Horton]

@scoke

it is inevitably a never-ending conversation circling the same conclusions. The reality is that the sport is extremely difficult. if you feel like you're repeating yourself every 6 to 9 months trying to give good information, I would say you're correct.

At least two of the skiers that I ski with now have critical athletic stance issues. They clearly understand how they should stand on their ski. The challenge is how to either rethink everything & undo ingrained habits or to look further and to see the predecessor to these incorrect positions. Of it was easy they would have done it already.

[ghutch]

@Horton I have to agree. This sport is tough. Very tough. It's not something you're going to understand and then go apply on the water, especially if you are self taught or just train with your buddies. You have to study this sport, have access to being able to ski consistently, get good training advice but especially by those who know what they are talking about and how to convey it to the student in a way they can understand it. I've learned so much more about slalom over the years but going out and applying it on the water is HARD. Especially after skiing with so many bad habits that become an automatic "go to" when you get in trouble at your shorter lines. Some days it feels easy and others nothing feels right. I do wonder if most skiers feel some improvement from year to year. I run a few more 35s than I had the previous seasons and see a little progression at 38 from time to time. Overall this sport is so addicting and fun yet frustrating at times. It's what keeps us coming back again and again.

There's a reason why the pros are the pros and we're..... not. Much respect to those men and women!!

[scoke]

I'm tryin to like or awesome the great post from January 4th 2023 but it's not letting me?

 

[Horton]

@scoke 

I just logged in as you and was able to like old posts from Jan 23. Are you sure you have not already liked that post? Anyhow if you screenshot the weirdness and DM it to me I will look at it again.  

[LK_skier]

On 4/6/2023 at 4:18 AM, Horton said:

I know that when am skiing well the distance from my chin to my feet is far apart as I can manage all the way through the wakes.

I like that - going to steal it

[swbca]

Re Squatting - what is it ?   A few top skiers ski have their knees bent at around 90 degrees except when finishing their turn.  Others not so much.

In this thread Squatting is something not to do.  What is the difference between squatting and having your knees bent ?

Freddy Winter is one of top skiers who has his knees bent more and bent longer than most other top skiers.  Is that squatting ?

Edited February 7 by swbca

[Dano]

@swbca I think that position is for very advanced skiers. The bent knees in that picture i think is a result of managing very high loads and being very far forward on the ski. Look at how far forward his front knee is over his toes.  I don't think it is possible to be that far forward without having some knee bend.  I think the majority of skiers are trying to remain as tall as possible even if their position on the ski requires some knee bend. 

[twhisper]

57 minutes ago, swbca said:

Re Squatting - what is it ?   A few top skiers ski have their knees bent at around 90 degrees except when finishing their turn.  Others not so much.

In this thread Squatting is something not to do.  What is the difference between squatting and having your knees bent ?

Freddy Winter is one of top skiers who has his knees bent more and bent longer than most other top skiers.  Is that squatting ?

The key difference is going to be how far back the hip joints are from being in alignment with the ankles and shoulders. A skier can flex their knees and ankles forward into a positive flex, and still have a straight line from shoulders- hips- ankles. On the other hand, a straight front knee/ankle with the back leg collapsing will result in the hips being much farther back. 

There are naturally different styles between great skiers. Some are softer in their legs and some are pretty tall through the legs. All great skiers have a solid alignment through the body when they need it.

[Horton]

@swbca This is a good question.

I am guilty of talking about the subject of squatting in a reductionist way. In reality, two things are very important from hookup to edge change a) the skier's mass is as far forward as possible b) the skier is in a strong and athletic stance.  For the vast majority of skiers, I think the easiest way to do this is to be tall. 

When you see @FWinter with a lot of knee bend his front knee is pushed forward and his hips are over his ankles. His mass is WAY forward. To make things more confusing Fred leans less and drives his knees and ankles away more. A technique known as “Edging”.  See

 

 

Back in the dark ages, the standard coaching was for everyone to bend their knees and get their hips up. When you try this on the dock you will be in a perfect strong forward position. The end result of skiers trying to have bent knees was / is usually hips back and broken stack.

My bottom line is that if you can actually drive your front ankle and knee forward that is ideal. If you are human like me the next best thing you can do is stand taller on your ski. 

[Deep11]

@Horton said :

When coaching where I get lost is the following situation. 

• The skier understands what a stacked or athletic position looks like. The end goal is crystal clear.
• The skier has a decent stack into the first white water
• The skier is a broken hot mess by the secondwhite water.  Hips back / elbows are bent / back ankle is very bent / ass is dragging 

Id be interested in the collective views on managing this issue.  From the coaching I do, I see this a lot and depending on the level of the skier the cause (and solution) appears to be quite different? 

[Cam]

25 minutes ago, Deep11 said:

 

When coaching where I get lost is the following situation. 

• The skier understands what a stacked or athletic position looks like. The end goal is crystal clear.
• The skier has a decent stack into the first white water
• The skier is a broken hot mess by the secondwhite water.  Hips back / elbows are bent / back ankle is very bent / ass is dragging 

Id be interested in the collective views on managing this issue.  From the coaching I do, I see this a lot and depending on the level of the skier the cause (and solution) appears to be quite different? 

You taking about me? 😁😁😁

[jhughes]

31 minutes ago, Deep11 said:

@Horton said :

When coaching where I get lost is the following situation. 

• The skier understands what a stacked or athletic position looks like. The end goal is crystal clear.
• The skier has a decent stack into the first white water
• The skier is a broken hot mess by the secondwhite water.  Hips back / elbows are bent / back ankle is very bent / ass is dragging 

Id be interested in the collective views on managing this issue.  From the coaching I do, I see this a lot and depending on the level of the skier the cause (and solution) appears to be quite different? 

What can be tough to see from the boat is the load that skier put in the rope and how early they loaded. By the time they get to the second spray they are in an unmanageable situation. They can't "do" alignment there because they loaded too much too early. That skier may say they "can't" do it, and they are right because they created an unmanageable situation earlier.

[Horton]

@jhughes

I hear skiers talk about this, but I do not personally relate. I am not 100% sure but I am inclined to think that what you are describing cannot be “Everything else is correct but the skier leaned on the rope too hard / too soon”.  

[scoke]

19 minutes ago, Horton said:

@jhughes

I hear skiers talk about this, but I do not personally relate. I am not 100% sure but I am inclined to think that what you are describing cannot be “Everything else is correct but the skier leaned on the rope too hard / too soon”.  

Hi John, not speaking for the previous posters but it's sometimes not ideal to put words in when they weren't used nor assume meaning outside of the words.

 

"LEAN HARDER" 

is 100% not the same as 

"PULL HARDER"

a few posters are clearly referring to pulling, not leaning. Very different. 

If someone is paying attention to my posts, majority of the time I am saying "squat and PULL". These are the guys that are arm skiing, firing all their muslces and trying to be a "10" across the boat. They are tensed up, veins popping and usally exahusted. They'll also talk about how out of shape they are and gotta ski more, even though they have been skiing for 2 months, to get in ski shape. NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

 

Which is why in my posts on the "what to do" perspective, I am constantly focusing on Loose and Lean, yes, lean deeper, more angle, roll the ski on a deeper edge. That's one of Adam Cords strengths. Props to him as it appears he's on the right trajectory. 

 

Our phsycial strength is NOT the power source, zero off is. We need to be using our strength to protect our postion and movement. Skiing is about holding postion and moving. Versus not pulling and trying to power across the boat and out around the buoys. 

Most skiers are pretty hard headed so it sure is fun to watch them fight to their failures and plateaus over their beliefs while they are not improving.

[Horton]

@scoke 

I agree.

A skier who uses any excess arm strength is going to be "pulled" into a squat & a skier who is in a squat is likely using a lot of arm strength. I see it as two sides of the same coin.

[Horton]

@scoke Now when we get to the subject of "lean harder" I get a little lost. With hips up and arms straight does a harder lean most often mean a loss of efficiency and control? I think not but only if you are exactly centered over your front ankle.  I brought back the Edging thread because I am fascinated with the idea even if I can not do it on the water except maybe a little on my gate. This stuff is really in the weeds.

[scoke]

15' @30 mph through 35 off, is about trying to go fast enough efficient enough.

38 off and beyond, is about trying to slow down enough, on time and efficient enough. 

 

Squat and pulling is exteremely counter productive to either of the two above but it will run you buoys.

Kinda like calling dog paddling "swimming".

 

[BSBELL]

As a complete newbie to the sport this year, I can attest to Horton's 'stand tall' statement. I spent 2-3 months looking like I was trying to squat 450lbs behind the boat from my high school football days. Now I am actually getting complements on how good I look behind the boat even though I'm missing buoys and crashing a lot, at the moment.

I have been told a million times and understood what hips up, arms straight, and shoulders back all meant... but video playback never lies. I felt like I was doing all of those things, but I'm not. I would rate my stack maybe a 2 out of 10.  Me at Bennetts getting lessons from Hanna:

IMG_1723.heic

Now my line of thinking when approaching the course is:

1. Stand tall

2. Arms straight 

3. Handle on the hip and lean (no pull)

Hopefully like her some day:

IMG_1724.heic

 

[Horton]

@BSBELL 👍except for the apple-only photo format