Electric Boat - Ski Nautique

[VONMAN]

Since batteries seem to be the weak link in Auto's per distance/time travel and Time to be fully charged up. We know that in a ski boat parasitic Drag will reduce time on water.

So when the Auto Companies all stop building V-8's, how is God's Green Earth how are you going have Ski Tournaments with Electric Ski Boats? Seven or eight boats, long extension cords or Cable ski parks? And so it ends bit by bit. @klindy what is the plan if the Greenies get their wish? I know that the price of Tournaments will be going up this summer but at least there will be tournaments.

[ral]

@VONMAN , there will be batteries and chargers that can do the task far before V-8s are discontinued. This is not happening next year.

[VONMAN]

@ral I Didn't say it would happen this year. What's the price of gas in Chile at now?

[ral]

Around twice the USA price.

[Hucklefin]

@kirkbauer Mic drop reply to the copy-paste. I remember when all the rednecks I am 'friends' with on my facebook were posting that one and acting really outraged a year or so ago. They don't even have a clue.

[BraceMaker]

@braindamage 10K for a BMW... you mean a shortblock... reman.

 

I don't think the EV is ready for ski boats fully, but then again I think it is fully ready if you are talking about replacing an Audi A3 or BMW 3 series of which my audi consumes exhaust valves and oil with such gusto that I've spent half the price of the car on replacement heads in the time I've had it and have been driving around on 3 cylinders for 20K miles. My GMC Yukon did that too - lifters out of warranty nothing makes quite the sound of a V7 smallblock. But yes its the battery replacement that has me concerned.

[Clydesdale]

People are searching for the absolute right answer for cars (and boats), but there may be more than 1 answer. We’re in a transition phase right now, and no one can tell us the final outcome. Battery capacity, power, and charge rates are MUCH better than just a few years ago, but in my opinion still not strong enough to replace all ICE vehicles. Electric vehicles are not great in cold climates. Also not the best for long trips. Electric seems a reasonable choice for a wakeboat (where weight is a good thing), but not good for a slalom tug. (Well, unless you only want a few sets a day or wakes the size of a wake boat.). Will the technology soon improve to the the point electric makes sense for ski boats etc? Maybe, but it’s not there yet. PS-I own a Tesla and LOVE it.

[kirkbauer]

@Clydesdale Agreed completely (except that I think Teslas specifically are great for long trips, but we can agree to disagree on that!). Cold weather, towing, living somewhere very rural, not having a garage or a place to charge at home, etc, are all good reasons to avoid an electric vehicle.

 

And just like one-size-fits-all doesn't work for normal cars or boats, the same is true for electric cars. If you commute round trip <50 miles per day, then almost any electric vehicle would be great for you. If you mostly go long distances, then vehicles with larger batteries and a great charging network are the only option.

 

I also agree -- unless you want to build a very specific electric competition ski boat that can only operate say 30 minutes between charges, then the weight of the current battery technology is going to be a big limiting factor for a ski boat versus a wake boat. There are, however, some promising low-weight battery technologies being developed that might completely change that though.

[ISP6ball]

Pretty nice to see some people on here that can see the positives/negatives with electric modes of transportation as well as positives/negatives with gas forms of transportation (land, air, and sea).

 

Neither one is going away in anybody's lifetime on this forum. Embrace the positives of each, and be open minded to innovations, of both electric and gas, without getting bogged down with the politics and drama.

[Jody_Seal]

 

[kirkbauer]

@Jody_Seal I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff, but it is tough to find out how much of this is accurate.

 

But I did find that this 994H can carry 77,000lb per load. So that's only 6.5 loads for 500,000lb. How many loads can be done per hour? It depends on how far it is driving I guess, but I'm sure it doesn't drive far. So perhaps one hour for 500,000lb? That's 150 gallons of fuel.

 

That Tesla battery will last at least 300,000 miles. That's 2,000mpg. That's better than your typical car isn't it?

 

Of course, to properly compare, we'd need to figure out how much fuel is required to mine the materials to create an internal combustion engine, which also won't be insignificant. And the energy required to smelt it, etc. And the energy required to extract, transport, and refine the gasoline.

[Mastercrafter]

Man you could dig a ski lake quick with one of those suckers.

[bko]

@Jody_Seal

Looks like someone messed up gallons with litres here

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58877529414fb5283ed14a6b/t/5888f8acbebafbea448f7094/1485371564893/Fuel+Table+-+Loaders.pdf

 

And I can imagine there are some more facts twisted. About the guy who came up with this:

https://leahy.substack.com/p/a-perfect-storm-of-misinformation?s=r

[Jody_Seal]

 

 

[swc5150]

Regardless of what the politicians do, it would/will take a few generations before gas stations start to become obsolete. I'd like an electric boat...no winterizing alone would be a win for me.

 

We did test a Plaid a few weeks back, just to see, as the dealer had one from a trade. Not much space on the Tampa streets to get stupid with it, but it will pin you to your seat in a big way. The EV overall performance just didn't connect with me though, so we went ICE as originally planned. There are many visceral things the EV just can't replicate for me. Nice to still have options though (for now) :)

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

Its funny you say that.

Does the Petroleum industry know something that the kilowatt kids dont?

 

Everywhere I go here in north florida there are a big number of new fuel stations going in and I don't see charging stations at any of them. Gas pumps!!

 

Dystopia is upon us hell I can't wait till the price of these cool electric mountin bikes come down a little. Just out my financial wheelhouse...

 

[BraceMaker]

@Jody_Seal - so I guess if we stop making electric cars that machine won't need to be built, and that machine operator could be laid off, and of course those mines could then be closed.

 

Because of course large wheeled loaders were only ever invented to move earth to mine materials for car batteries and they never existed before.

 

We wouldn't be taking the entire amount of material moved to extract a wide variety of commercially sold material then taking the worse case % of that material that goes into electric batteries and then calling the entire weight of all those sellable materials overburden of lithium extraction.

 

Oh wait its a facebook post and not cited. So that seems to be exactly what they did.

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal in 20 years new gas cars will be a specialty item. 20 years is a long time but the transition is happening and accelerating.

[03RLXi]

Change can happen quickly. When the new technology performs better people will use it. It's happened before.

 

 

Horse to car.

Film to digital.

Fax to email.

I'm in no doubt electric vehicles of all types will happen (plus some alternatives like hydrogen etc).

Question is just how rapid the uptake is. That'll depend on performance.

At the moment EVs accelerate rapidly and have enough range for almost all commuting trips. The charging is slower than liquid fuel refill but is improving. Battery storage capacity is also improving so long range travel without recharge, or towing, are becoming possible.

It's just a matter of time. For car, trucks, boats.

 

 

[BK]

@Jody_Seal those fuel stations you see are nothing more than real estate grabs and ways to sell the more profitable items they carry. Gasoline is one of the least profitable…it’s just a way to get customers to stop, gas up, and buy big gulps and taquitos. It’s about the land and getting people in the store. And why gasoline? Because of massive population growth in those areas and the need for gas (the carrot to stop) is strong, and will be for a long time.

[MISkier]

Or, are the new gas stations just replacing the old ones destroyed in the hurricane a few years ago?

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal and those same loaders mine iron ore, coal, limestone, bauxite, and every other miners that goes into EVERYTHING you buy and use. It’ll take a long time to transition but the electrification of the power industry in general is a path that won’t be stopped.

 

In 1856, Bessemer invented a new way to make steel. I’m 1948 the Basic Oxygen Furnace was invented and revolutionized the steel making industry effectively making Bessemer process obsolete. Today approximately 20% of the steel made in the US is made using a BOF and 0% of rebar or beams. Todays carbon footprint in steel making is less than 20% of what it was and is largely based on electric arc furnaces.

 

During that same time interior lighting went from whale oil to candle light to natural gas to electricity.

 

Prius was introduced about 2000. Nissan Leaf about 2010. Today - about a decade later - Tesla is the #6 most valuable companies in the world. Farce? Ignore it? Sure … that roar you hear isn’t a gasoline engine.

 

Point is, technology moves a lot faster then you think.

[ral]

@Jody_Seal , large scale mining operations will be switching to green hydrogen and electricity for their mobile equipment fleet before 2030.

 

Just in case, these same machines move around the same amount of earth to get the materials that are needed for building regular cars.

[VONMAN]

Electric cars hell, I want a electric Flying car that was promised back in the 50's (Popular Science magazine) And my flying jet pack. Dammit Janet!

[wettek69]

@ral that's a very broad and definitive

statement there, that large scale mining operations WILL be switching to green hydrogen and electricity for their fleets before 2030.

 

Apart from some environmental fantasy list, what facts do you base that comment on? As above, according to Popular Science, we were all supposed to have flying cars 70 years ago. And not so long ago, Theranos was supposed to have revolutionised the Medical industry by now.

[bananaron]

I think EV autos are great and would love to see a ski boat someday.However I live in northern MN where it gets to 30 to 40 below and the wind off that lake is a killer for man animals and automobiles.I ran into a lady yesterday who has a beautiful red tesla and she paid $120,000 for the vh last yr and said its worth $140,000 today.She also agreed that the battery life is a lot less in the winter.Our daughter lives in denver and we drive in 1 day however with a EV vh with a range of 300 to 400 miles we could not do that.Cold climates range cost of vehicles to MANY people will slow the growth or use of EV vehicles.Many people in the area I live have gas vehicles that are to us $1000 JUNKERS HOWEVER NOW WITH THE COSTS GOING UP YOU CANT EVEN FIND THOSE.Technology is moving fast however I dont think I will have a EV vh in my lifetime for many reasons.But then again I am very old and may not last to see that ideal EV.....

[ral]

@wettek69 ,some backing info:

 

I have worked in the industry for quite some time (and have zero relation to environmental groups or activism), and the commitment to replacing diesel with hydrogen and electricity is in most of the plans and reports from the largest players.

 

Companies like AngloAmerican are investing in green hydrogen production, they see this as a good income source as well.

 

Comverting a diesel engine to hydrogen is easy and, in many geographies where mining is present there is or there will be excess solar power capacity during daytime, so hydrogen will be very cheap.

 

On electrical mobile fleet, in a mine it is easy to install a trolley system in the fixed parts of truck movement, so battery capacity is less of an issue. Many large scale trucks are already electric in their drivetrain, fed by onboard diesel generators (this make more efficient truck in high geographical altitude environments), so the conversion is also easy.

 

Many large shovels are already electric (and have beeen for a while).

 

Just as a side note, in large scale comminution mining, diesel is not the main energy source, electricity is.

 

Mining companies see getting away from oil as both a way of lowering cost and also keeping their right to play in the market, as License to Operate is their main concern.

[wettek69]

@ral yes, you are correct, most large shovels are electric, but they are diesel electric, whereby a diesel prime mover is coupled to a generator, which then feeds multiple electric motors via a distribution network. So, it's not pure electricity as such. Yes, it is easy to run a prime mover on hydrogen, but hydrogen is extremely expensive and energy consuming to produce. It is all well and good having plans to convert, but until it is cost effective, and all the energy required to produce it comes from clean energy, it's not large scale viable except as an advertising campaign. You also noted that many trucks are diesel electric, so as stated, you are still using diesel.

Hydrocarbon based energy is going to be around for a long time. The endless solar and wind energy is a myth. The UK, which is touted as being a leader in wind energy had massive energy shortages last year due it being a not very windy year.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an argument, you are convinced there is a unicorn in the garden. I too am in the energy industry, I have been for a long time, and know what many industry plans are, but we also know what is practical in the near to mid term. Plans are one thing, reality is another. You may want to fact check on how the bulk of hydrogen is currently produced, it is far from environmentally friendly, and the cost per kg to produce

[DW]

I thought this was well said, from the Autoexremist website, a commentary on all things cars from the US epicenter of the automobile:

 

Detroit. Yes, the inexorable automotive march continues. To where, no one really knows for sure. The EV thing is definitely coming, and it will be coming over the next fifteen years. Make no mistake, the developments in battery technology, weight reduction and charging speed are unfolding at a furious pace, and the seemingly insurmountable problems of today will give way to radical solutions in seven to ten years.

 

In the meantime, the show pony EVs – the six-figure-plus vehicles of all stripes – will continue to dominate the headlines, but the tipping point will be when the more affordable mainstream EVs arrive. Even so, until the public charging infrastructure is dramatically improved – and steps are taken to anticipate and improve the supply of electricity – the EV “thing” is going to play out in fits and starts. As I’ve said many times before, when you can pull off the highway and get a 80 percent charge in five minutes or less, you will know that the EV “moment” has arrived.

 

I also found this quite interesting: https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/18/why-rivian-stock-dropped-monday-morning/

 

My takeaway - it will probably be some unforeseen item/issue that slows or knocks the EV adaption to a much larger market segment / volume to blunt the EV boat market. Probably not the actual technology but something else.

[DW]

And PS: if you ever get the opportunity to operate a large piece of equipment like a mining truck, bulldozer, etc. you can really enjoy a Tim Allen moment.

[braindamage]

If anyone is wondering if the transition is happening. Take a look at Q1 sales volumes. Every automaker is flat to huge declines except for Tesla…hmmm…

https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2022-q1/

[Mastercrafter]

There are also no semiconductors to build all the gassers we all want.. that kind of automatically allows Tesla a big lead.

[kirkbauer]

@Mastercrafter Your point is valid, but I want to note that a Tesla requires a lot more semiconductors than a normal vehicle. Although I think that's just an argument that Tesla has superior supply-chain management, at least in this area. Tesla is much more vertically integrated.

[Mastercrafter]

I agree-- Tesla's vertical integration is awesome, and it has obviously allowed them a huge advantage these days. I just dont think using their sales increases (and others' decreases) as "the transition is happening" right now is appropriate. Dealerships are sold out of gassers everywhere and people are paying stupid high prices for what they can find.

[chrislandy]

@Mastercrafter depends where you are, UK 2022 Q1, 34% of new car sales were BEV / PHEV / Hybrid, up by nearly 60% from last year, diesel only dropped by nearly 50% and are now less than 1/3rd of "alternative fueled cars" and petrol only by 9%.

 

I'd say the transition is happening now, on the other side of the Atlantic anyway...

[AdamCord]

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Here's another perspective from someone who is not exactly a climate denying oil company exec. Its 2 years old, but still valid.

 

[skierjp]

https://fb.watch/cAThLoAx9s/

Nautique

[swc5150]

MSRP ice GS22 $154k; GS22E $313k. :o

 

[VONMAN]

How about electric Tanks?! Coming so to a Army near you.

[wettek69]

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Ford-Expects-Combustion-Engine-Production-To-Continue-Until-2040.html

[ALPJr]

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/04/25/ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-could-win-first-mover-advantage.html

[skierjp]

https://fb.watch/cAThLoAx9s/

[BraceMaker]

@VONMAN hard to tell if you are joking or not but past and present military forces the world over have wanted super sneaky quiet low heat signature low maintenance tanks and yes electric has been suggested for this since WW1 and again and again has been investigated. Ukraine is pushing this forwards our Abrams tanks would collapse bridges hence the whole provide old com block equipment.

 

But me thinks you've been watching Fox and think the US hasn't wanted electric tanks in every administration for the last 100 years?

[VONMAN]

@BraceMaker saw it on Yahoo news Biden wants the Military to go Green, electric. Now the joking part, tanks that could do the 1/4mile in 10 seconds???

[BraceMaker]

@VONMAN there are two ways to frame the issue - President Joe "skiing" does want the military to go green - but also the military has been wanting to go green since forever. The cost of operations is always a concern and its well documented the the DOD has wanted to modernize and make their operations more efficient.

 

And well as tax payors we should want that too - which the point is why the heck wouldn't we want our military to be more efficient and better equipped but that's become a punchline? Because of course electric bad diesel good.

[DW]

@VONMAN - Perhaps you jest, I got the chance to be in an M1 tank, amazing performance, ate up terrain in an amazing fashion. There are several military vehicle programs developing fast extraction vehicles, think of an off road Trophy Truck with armor. So 1/4 mile in 10 seconds ...

[Hucklefin]

@DW Up-armoured vehicle with a 10s 1/4 mile hmm... Got a source for that one?

[Skoot1123]

So Ballers - what price point would make you want to buy an electric ski tug? Assuming performance (charging and life of battery) was 80% of gas powered boats would you be interested and intrigued enough to go for it?

 

Forget the politics and tertiary talk we have heard already.

[swc5150]

It would have to be close to the same price as an ICE for me. I'm not paying for my "savings" up front. When it's over double the MSRP like the Nautique GS, no way.