Electric Boat - Ski Nautique

[ral]

@Golfguy , companies like Volvo will be fully electric by 2030. For sure they expect their EV division to be profitable.

[kirkbauer]

I have never towed with any of my Teslas (I live on a lake), but there are some misconceptions here about how charging for a Tesla works. I have gone on a TON of long-distance trips with my Model S, Model X, and Model 3. There are Superchargers almost everywhere. Your first leg leaving home gets you about 3 hours of driving. Then, you can charge for 20 minutes and drive 2 more hours. Or you can charge for an hour and drive 3 more hours. Charging to 90-100% takes way longer than charging to 60-70%.

 

For me, I'm happy to have a bathroom break every 2-3 hours. And I usually do the "charge 20min drive 2hr" option unless I want to sit down for a nice meal, in which case I'll make the stop an hour and then I can drive for 3 more.

 

So, an 9 hour drive in a gas car, if you are taking minimal breaks, will take maybe 9 hours 30min. The same drive in my Tesla will take 10 hours (three 20min charging stops). It's really not a big difference, and I personally enjoy 20 minute breaks (bathroom, snacks, drinks, etc).

 

The whole picture will be decently worse if you were towing a trailer though. And for anything besides a Tesla I believe it is not nearly as convenient (much fewer fast-charging options, if any).

[braindamage]

@golfguy that’s like saying that the ONLY reason I buy a house is to get the mortgage deduction. If companies don’t think the market will support it, and if they don’t think it’ll be profitable, then the incentives won’t even come close to covering their costs.

[jpwhit]

@kirkbauer I handle long trips in my Tesla similarly but I tend to stop for only 10-12 minutes of charging at a time but a little more frequently. So, to your key point, you just treat it a little differently than fueling up a gas vehicle.

 

For others that haven't experienced life with an EV. When you're down to 30% battery capacity and stop at a fast charger, your charging rates starts off at around 1000 miles per hour of charging. When I stop for 12 minutes of charging, I can add about 200 miles of range.

 

@kirkbauer also points out another key point. When I see electric car reviews, more often than not, they ignore the brands charging networks and fast charging capabilities. It's about the most important thing to consider if you're buying an EV. This is where Tesla is still pretty far ahead of everyone else. But others are catching up.

 

These charging characteristics are relevant IMO to boats, and in particular 3-event boats. Because, at about mid-state of charge, you can charge the batteries at a faster rate than power is used from the battery during use. That means for a slalom boat on a private lake, if you plug the boat in whenever the boat is at the dock, you don't need a large amount of battery capacity. If the boats sits at the dock for more minutes between sets, than the actual 15-16 seconds per pass times 6 for pulling a slalom set, you'll only need battery capacity for a few sets. In that scenario, an EV slalom boat could be significantly lighter than a gas version. I think it's possible, that 3-event boats could potentially be an early adoption scenario for EV boats.

 

I realize this wouldn't fit everyone's use case for a ski boat, but it likely fits a large enough segment of the ski boat market to be viable. And such a boat once you get over initial high R&D costs of first models, could be made for a less cost than current ski boats.

 

And before everyone jumps in about the dangers of electricity around docks, that is such a simple engineering issue to solve. It's virtually a non-issue. Also, a significant percentage of docks already have AC power for lifts and lights and such. It doesn't become significantly more of a safety issue to run higher voltage or higher amp capacity to the dock. 115v at 15 amps is quite sufficient to kill you. Not really much of an issue to be "more dead". And the requirements for running electricity for docks does a pretty good job relative to safety. Like most things, people get hurt when the safety requirements are ignored.

[jpwhit]

Automakers are moving to EVs because there is huge money to be made. EVs will be much more profitable for automakers in the long run due to the simple fact that there are about half the number of parts involved to make an EV vs a Gas automobile. The variant and version matrix for EVs also tend to be much smaller because by nature they are more software driven in terms of features and function than a traditional gas automobile. And if you don't understand how the version and variant matrix drives cost for the auto makers, then you'll have a hard time understanding the economics of EV manufacturing. They are moving so quickly because they don't want to become the next Kodak. I know because I work with senior executives at most of major automakers and it's a hot topic of discussion.

[chrislandy]

@kirkbauer my range drops from 230 miles to 150-170ish towing the Prostar so still very acceptable to me.

 

What you describe is exactly how we'll end up using private electric ski boats, (as I've said in a few posts on various threads to date), start the day on a full charge, ski a few sets, charge while having lunch / waiting for your turn, then ski again, repeat. For a private boat, on a private lake, the required battery will be next to nothing.

[wettek69]

Normally at a gas station there are multiple pumps so multiple cars can "charge" simultaneously and in 5 minutes clear the spot for the next person. When we all have electric cars as per all the pipe dreams, your 20 minute break will quickly blow out while the line behind you also builds up while you are waiting for the guy in front of you to finish his short 20 minute topup. You also move on from a gas pump and park while you have your 20 minute food and pee break clearing your pump for someone else. How many times do you drive past a servo and see multiple cars lined up at individual pumps. Pretty regularly.

Sorry, until someone comes up with a battery/charger combo that can give a useful charge in 5 minutes, I can't see how mass uptake of EV cars is practical.

[BraceMaker]

@wettek69 except for.... I rarely drive far enough that I cannot "fill" at my house.

 

Nor in fact do most people. I regularly fill on my commute to or from work because that is "convenient" I am driving past gas stations and I need to fuel up usually atleast once a week.

 

But if I charged an EV at home that had atleast 100 miles of range I would have only needed to charge at a station during a trip 3 times since Thanksgiving. If it goes 250 it would have only been once.

 

So you're taking a perceived amount of traffic at the pump and assuming people would also need to frequent the chargers well that is incorrect because most people you see are only filling because the additive short commutes require it. They would just charge at home or work.

 

Think if everyone had gasoline pipes to their house, but it only filled at a trickle so your car had to fill overnight but it's ready to go every morning for all the driving you need to do. But there are also places you can pay more to fill faster and you have to wait in line and stand there filling. You'd just fill overnight and never wait for a pump on your way to work.

[wettek69]

@BraceMaker well that's great for you, but a lot of people aren't you, and when you drive longer distances on weekends or on vacation, or in countries like Australia where there are longer distances between servos, your cute "just top it up overnight at home" analogy doesn't work. Most people don't just use their car to only commute from home to work/shopping 5 days a week.

[BK]

@wettek69 the average miles driven in Australia is 36.4km. In the US it’s 64km.

Most people in Australia actually do drive the way you think they don’t. 70% actually.

https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/average-kilometers-driven.html

[wettek69]

I beg to differ. Averages are just that, averages, they don't mean jack in the real world. There are a crapload of people here who drive more than 36 kms every day. There are also a LOT of people in the modern world who don't have the luxury of a garage that they park in every night (live in apartments) and can just plug their car in. Many have to park on the street every night, kinda hard to plug your car in. There are also a LOT of people like me who do family road trips of 600 miles a day with servos few and far between. On the flip side, my dear old nana drives to lawn bowls once a week, for a round trip of 6kms. Sorry, at the moment I don't believe they are practical for most people. Anyway back to boats....

[kirkbauer]

@wettek69 my guess is that at least 50% of filling up is for daily driving, probably much more. That's not needed for EVs. Only road trip driving needs supercharging. It will vary heavily by brand, but for Tesla, I have only waited to charge one time in 7 years and 50+ road trips. The number of supercharger stations have exploded along with Tesla ownership. Also you know how busy it is before you arrive so you can choose charging stops that aren't very busy. Until you experience it for yourself you just won't understand the awesomeness of driving a Tesla. I know I didn't.

[chrislandy]

@wettek69 I think you're missing the point, the "average" person doesn't drive much, and yes they do pretty much just drive to work and back and go shopping in it.

 

That means that roughly half do under that and half over that, with it being that low, it indicates there are a hell of a lot of people doing less than 36 miles a day, although it's more likely a bell curve with a high percentage around the average.

 

That saying, once EV's take off even more and the infrastructure is in place, it's likely that 1/2 or more of a car park will have charging points at service stations so everyone can plug in when stopped if needed.

 

Also, are you saying it's over 200 miles between service stations where you road trip?

[skierjp]

Eventually these charging stations will no longer be free. I wonder what the cost will be? I work in the utility industry for a large Electric Utility. Copper and wire theft is HUGE. I can see thieves having a hay day stealing charging cables.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Meanwhile, back to "the market is driving the demand for electric vehicles".....

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/washington-state-plans-to-outlaw-most-new-gas-cars?%3Futm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=dwtwitter

[wettek69]

@chrislandy Yes, regularly more than 200 miles, which is my point. I don't give a crap about being able to go 0-60 in point nothing of a second. Before I ever buy an electric vehicle, either boat or car, I want range and fast recharge, not a 20 minute part charge, or all night trickle charge

[Horton]

@Bruce_Butterfield you are not wrong that pure market forces are not driving this change. Either way it is my view that the car companies are going along with it.

[skierjp]

Irritating enough when you pull into a RacTrac and the owner of the car taking up a fuel pump space walks in to buy lottery tickets or something to eat. I can see where you could have someone doing a full 2 hour charge while doing his shopping and then taking a nap.

It would be great if hotels would have charging stations. I would imagine eventually cars will be able to charge themselves through solar panels in the roof or some sort of regeneration.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton of course car companies are going along with it. If they don't, the risk being put out of business. What choice do they have?

 

I think demand for Teslas is primarily market driven. They are very cool, high end luxury/sports cars and the people lining up can afford a high end car.

 

I think the "demand" for the vast majority of the remaining EVs is being forced by legislative / political policies that are far divorced from true market demand.

[VONMAN]

Well it looks like I can replace my 200 Mercury for a E-Motion 180E electric outboard. Rated at 180hp and 258 ft lbs of Torque, who knew!? Motor cost $26,995.00. That's only $10,000.00 more than I payed for my Merc in 2015. But it might be able to inter face with Zero-off. (a big plus)

Did I forget to metion that the batteries are not included. So for a added cost of $51,995.00 you get a single battery pack, Charger and interface. The lithium-ion battery pack can deliver 110 KW of continuous power for 60 KW hours. About a half hour at that usage.

Total upgrade cost only a measly $78,990.00 . And only a half hour run time. By not going electric and keeping my gas motor, I save $61,990.00. Or if gas prices go to $7.00 a gallon I will have saved enough for 8,855 gallons of gas for skiing. (not for just a half hour)

 

https://visionmarinetechnologies.com/e-motion-180e/

[BK]

@Bruce_Butterfield you might want to research it a little more. Companies are driving demand for EV (fleet) in a big way. Amazon, Hertz and AT&T to name a few. It’s pretty simple to see why fleet vehicles would be a smart investment when their fuel economy would improve 4-7x compared to their current fleet vehicles. Of course government incentives can play a role but the economics make sense. Craziness like Washington state doesn’t have anything to do with these companies’ massive orders…they were in play long before that ploy.

[swc5150]

All I know is I saw some angry folks in very long charging lines last week in FL. I don't how some of these random EV mandate dates will not get pushed out? Where I live, Kwik Trip and Casey's are putting up new gas stations left and right. Apparently they're not preparing for this EV future.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@BK local / fleet delivery vehicles such as Amazon are one area that I think EV makes a lot of sense. Especially if they can effectively use regenerative braking. Those vehicles do mostly start/stop and spend a significant portion of their life idling.

 

However, fleet vehicles make up a very small portion of the market. There is still significant difference in the cost, performance, and range for the EV equivalent of a Toyota Camry or Ford F-150. Once that gap gets smaller (without subsidies or tax credits), then the demand will increase. It isn't there yet.

[Jody_Seal]

 

 

[ral]

In 1969, Seiko launched the world's first quartz wristwatch. The price was around the same price as some of the popular cars of the time. Anyone remembers what happened to the mechanical watch industry in the 70s?

[braindamage]

@ral …there are always nay-sayers:

Computers cost $1m, take up a whole room, and can only add, subtract, multiply and divide

 

Cellphones don’t have enough battery or coverage to replace the land line

 

Automobiles won’t replace trains due to lack of gas stations, roads, and crappy tires

 

On and on…

[kirkbauer]

@Bruce_Butterfield I think you are correct that Teslas are very cool cars, but I think you are incorrect to consider them high-end or luxury cars for only the wealthier people among us. A base model 3 is fully loaded at $42,690. According to Consumer Reports, the average new-car price in 2022 is now $47,000. I'm not saying that $43k is cheap, but it's obviously below average.

 

Additionally, for the more savvy consumers out there, they'll realize that they'll be saving a ton of money for the next 5-10 years after buying a Tesla. Virtually zero maintenance (no oil changes, no emissions testing, no transmission fluid, no changing of brake pads, etc). And obviously you'll save a lot of money on gas. So the Total Cost of Ownership is extremely attractive compared to the average new vehicle.

 

I've said it above and I'll say it again. I'm not an environmentalist. I bought my first Tesla 8 years ago (when it definitely was only for the "rich") and it was the best vehicle I had ever owned (and I've owned some great vehicles). The driving experience is superior. The acceleration is incredible. The mobile connectivity, free upgrades, etc, are great. Autopilot is amazing and takes so much load off of the driver. I never realized how much I hated getting gas until I had a Tesla and I wake up every morning with a "full tank".

 

For the first 6 of those 8 years of Tesla ownership, my wife had a nice gas-powered vehicle. But we never took it on road trips. The Tesla driving experience, especially Autopilot, more than made up for any slight inconvenience on charging.

 

So you can talk all day about government subsidies, lithium mining, carbon emissions, coal power plants, charging delays, etc, etc, but if you haven't owned a Tesla, you just don't know what you are missing. It's a superior automobile to almost anything else ever produced, and for most (but not all) driving applications. Like I said, I've been an owner for 8 years, and I wouldn't drive anything else, not even when other options were sitting in my garage. Unless I need to take a load of crap to the dump, then I'll borrow a pickup truck.

[kirkbauer]

One more comment. Electric vehicles came first, but battery technology was horrible. Then gasoline engines took over. And gasoline engines are amazing. But battery and electric motor technology has grown so much that the tables have turned.

 

As a thought experiment: if things had gone differently, let's say we hadn't discovered oil, or let's say that batteries were better ~100 years ago. Let's say that everybody was driving electric cars. Then I invented a gasoline-powered car. How would I possibly market that invention? I think people would think that my "gas-powered car" was a crazy idea, far inferior to what they already had. Specifically I think I'd hear comments like this:

 

Wait, I'd have to have a tank of liquid explosives in my car? What happens if I get in an accident?

Wait, I'd have to go to a special store to "recharge" my car once or twice per week?

Wait, I'd need to get my oil changed once or twice per year?

Wait, I'd have this Rube-Goldberg-esque contraption with thousands of moving parts instead of a simple electric motor?

Wait, my car sits there and wastes fuel when I'm waiting in line and not even moving?

Wait, if I accelerate quickly it wastes more fuel than accelerating slowly?

Wait, my car would exhale dangerous gas whenever it was running?

Wait, we'd have to re-engineer parking garages, tunnels, etc, to safely vent that gas?

Wait, my air conditioning and heater won't work unless the "engine" is running?

Wait, I can't leave my air conditioning running while I'm in a store on a hot summer day?

Wait, I can't park outside a Starbucks and do work and listen to the radio without running out of batteries? Unless I run the engine the whole time?

[Mastercrafter]

This is not much to do with boats but..

 

It is currently costing me over $160 to fuel up my F250. I spent $2k over winter on cooling systems (yes two) flushes, trans oil change, and some other misc engine / emissions mumbo jumbo. I change my own oil but 13 quarts synthetic Rotella is still spendy, plus oil filter, the air filter is over $100, I'll be pissed when my exhaust emissions systems needs work or replaced and my turbo eats itself. Yes I bought a diesel truck knowing it's not the cheapest vehicle to own but gosh darn it... getting old.

 

I put my $100 down to reserve a Cybertruck the moment it opened up a couple years ago and can't wait to get it. I'm also in line for an F150 Lightning but the range/cost is not impressing me. Neither will get me across the country as easily but it'll work for 95% of the driving and towing that I do. I've been a gearhard sinc I was a baby and love me some V8's, race fuel, and sub 10MPG but I'm surely not against something different, so long as it's not mandated (which it may be eventually).

 

In Vegas there are a TON of Teslas being used as Uber vehicles and talking with the owners, they're getting 300,000+ miles on them with just tires and breaks. Owner/operators love them.

 

Any form of transportation is bad for the environment because it all takes energy. I'm not sure what's better or worse, but for my own selfish reasons, I can't wait to go electric for some things. I've already re-winterized a boat two times this spring after skiing. I'd love to just plug it in, no water to drain, and have it ready the next time the sin decides to shine.

 

 

[kirkbauer]

@Mastercrafter If/when you decide on Cybertruck vs F150 Lightning, pay extra attention to the charging networks. I don't know what charging network the F150 will use, but unless it truly competes with what Tesla has, the Cybertruck is likely going to be the only option for long-distance driving.

 

Also, if Uber drivers are replacing brake pads on their Teslas, they are driving it wrong. I'm an aggressive driver and in 6 years and 50,000 miles on my Tesla Model S, the brake pads were worn only 10%. Of course you can use your brakes all that you want to (and they are heavy vehicles) but it's so easy to almost never touch the brake pedal.

[BS74]

@Horton, the car companies have no choice. Biden mandated that 50% of all new vehicles be EV by 2030, just 8 years from now. Just because the government mandates it doesn't mean people can afford to buy EV"s. As of 2020 38% of families earned less than 50,000 and 55% earned less than $75000, that being two wage earners. It gets even worse when race is entered into it. Factor in rising inflation and these people can't afford these vehicles. WE need a balance and being energy independent allows for the gradual implementation of EV's. In your own state many gas powered tools, off road vehicles, etc. are being banned my 2028. What are the replacements?

[kirkbauer]

I feel like a lot of different things are being comingled here, and most of them have nothing to do with boats :)

 

Are electric boats viable?

Are electric tow vehicles better?

Is electric propulsion better, in general?

Is electric propulsion better for the environment?

Should there be government mandates to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles?

 

The reality is that the answer to most of these is "yes" but not necessarily all of them, and in most cases the answer depends on the specific situation.

[Horton]

@BS74 I am NOT defending or debating the politics. I am just saying it is the future.

[Golfguy]

Subsidy example:

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-list-government-subsidies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12#spacex-lands-a-289-billion-contract-with-nasa-in-april-2021-1

[kirkbauer]

You can’t really trust an article that considers the government buying actual goods and services a subsidy. SpaceX does better work for less money than all of the competition, and therefore has won military and NASA contracts.

[jjackkrash]

It is tough to evaluate claims of industry "subsidies" without first agreeing on a definition (and "subsidy" is a loaded word). I do not agree that reduced tax confiscation, also called a "tax break" or "tax incentive," should be considered a "subsidy" because the two actions are not morally equivalent.

 

The government using tax dollars to issue direct payments to a farmer not to grow food; the government writing checks with tax dollars to Tesla customers to induce them to purchase a Tesla; the government paying for a factory or sports stadium with tax dollars and giving the facility to a car company or sports team, are all actions properly labeled "subsidies" because they involve a public expenditure of tax dollars already collected and then a direct payment to transfer of property a private beneficiary.

 

Regardless of the word-play now used by the IMF and forced-wealth redistributers everywhere, if a local government promises to only confiscate 10 percent a year in property taxes instead of the 20 percent a year it usually confiscates to induce a car company to build a facility locally, this is a tax incentive, not a "subsidy." If the government could confiscate $4B from an oil company through taxation, but only confiscates $2B through taxation by allowing certain tax deductions or depreciation schedules for policy reasons, calling that a $2B "subsidy" is misleading. Not confiscating Musk's unrealized gains in stock options is not a "subsidy" although someone is probably going to try and convince us soon that Musk and other billionaires are being "subsidized" because their wealth is not being confiscated by the billions through tax confiscation. (The irony is the government arguably helped make Musk rich by direct subsidies to Tesla, but now factions of the government want to confiscate his personal wealth.)

 

Cliff notes:

 

Confiscating less = tax incentive.

 

Confiscating and redistributing through direct payments to private company or individual = subsidy.

[Jody_Seal]

 

IT WOULD SEEM THAT IF ELECTRIC CARS DO NOT USE GASOLINE, THEY WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN PAYING GASOLINE TAX ON EVERY GALLON THAT IS SOLD FOR AUTOMOBILES, WHICH WAS ENACTED SOME YEARS AGO TO HELP TO MAINTAIN YOUR ROADS AND BRIDGES. THEY WILL USE THE ROADS, BUT WILL NOT PAY FOR THEIR MAINTENANCE!

 

 

 

Ever since the advent of electric cars, the REAL cost per mile has never been discussed. All you ever hear is the mpg in terms of gasoline, with nary a mention of the cost of electricity. Electricity has to be one of the least efficient ways to power cars, yet it is being shoved down your throats. Glad somebody finally put engineering and math to paper. A British Columbia Hydro executive supposedly said: If you really intend to adopt electric vehicles, you have to face certain realities. For example, a home charging system for a Tesla requires 75 amp service. The average house is equipped with 100 amp service. On a small street (approximately 25 homes), the electrical infrastructure would be unable to carry more than three houses with a Tesla. If even half the homes to have electric vehicles, the system would be wildly over-loaded.

 

 

 

This is the elephant in the room with electric vehicles. Your residential infrastructure cannot bear the load. So as your genius elected officials promote this nonsense, not only are you being urged to buy these things and replace your reliable, cheap generating systems with expensive, new windmills and solar cells, but you will also have to renovate your entire delivery system! This latter "investment" will not be revealed until you're so far down this dead end road that it will be presented with an 'OOPS!' and a shrug. A man named Eric test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors and he writes, "For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.” Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the

9-gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

 

 

 

It will take you 4.5 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

 

 

 

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned. If you pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $20,000 while the Volt costs $46,000-plus. It looks like the “Greenies” in the American Government want loyal Americans NOT to do the math, but simply pay three times as much for a car, that costs more than seven times as much to run, and takes three times longer to drive across the country. Say What…….?

[kirkbauer]

@Jody_Seal almost everything in that post is factually incorrect. I'm going to address the false information in the order in which it appeared.

 

Yes, there is valid concern around gas taxes paying for the roads, but gas taxes have always been an iffy way to pay for roads. Why would a car that gets 10mpg need to pay more to maintain the roads than a car that gets 60mph? In Georgia, we have to pay a separate EV tax to maintain the roads.

 

The average electrical service is not 100 amps. For the last ~25 years most new homes have 200 amps. My home has 400 amps. Yes, there are homes with 100 amp service out there, but I wouldn't call it the average. It's also possible to upgrade your service to a higher amperage (not cheap but doable). And most electric vehicle drivers charge overnight when the power grid isn't doing much else.

 

The MOST you can charge at, even with a hardwired Tesla wall charger, is 48 amps @ 240V, not 75. You use a 60 amp breaker for 48 amps. Finally, about half of the Tesla owners I know charge out of a regular 15-amp outlet (charging at a rate of 12 amps @ 120V). Using the math about how many EVs can charge on a street with 25 homes (which I have no idea if that's accurate), it would be 37 EVs out of 25 homes if they are charging at 12 amps 120V. My vehicle would get 84 miles of range charging at 12amps for 12 hours each night. That's plenty for most people.

 

The "average speed including charging time" of 20mph is a joke. When your car is charging, you're sleeping. Why would you count that time?

 

Now, why would it take 10 hours to charge a 16kWh battery if you were charging at 75amps? It would actually take right about an hour. But that doesn't make sense because you can only charge at a rate of 3.7kW per hour (which is ~30amp at 120 or ~15amp at 240). So, again, the 75amps required to charge is hyperbole. But even at 3.7Kw per hour, that's about 4.5 hours for a full charge.

 

And, finally, the most egregious error in your post (perhaps?) is the cost of electricity. $1.16 per kWh? I just Googled for the most expensive electricity in the US and I get $0.34/kWh in Hawaii. Here in Georgia, I pay $0.15 during the day and $0.04 when charging overnight.

 

So, to re-do the math using my rates, 16kWh battery @ $0.04/hr = $0.64. Google says the range is 53 miles not 25 miles, so that's just about $0.01 per mile.

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

Goggle????lol!!!!your killing me!!

 

 

[ALPJr]

Thought the volt was one of the earliest on the market about ten years ago. I think it’s more along the lines of today’s plug in hybrids which can get ~40 - 75 miles on electric depending on conditions before switching on the gas.

[braindamage]

@Jody_Seal i just checked both my Wisconsin and Michigan homes. Each are less than $0.11/kWh all in, including charges, etc.

 

I installed a Tesla charger in each and didn’t have to upgrade either service. My cottage has 100a, so I was only able to put in 40a breaker. It still charges to full overnight, so who cares.

[thager]

How does one figure in loss of battery efficiency over time or the cost of repair to battery which in Teslas case means new battery at 23-24K?

[kirkbauer]

The Tesla batteries last for a lot longer than I expected. 300,000 to 500,000 miles. That’s about $0.05/mi if you keep the car that long and replace the battery. Of course the new battery will likely be much better than the original. And you almost no maintenance other than that (and tires).

[braindamage]

@thager i think the first thing to note is that the battery life should be between 300-500k miles. My model 3 has an 8 year, 160k warranty. Based on my mileage (pre-Covid), that would mean a Battery every 10-15 years. I doubt I’ll even own the car that long.

 

Secondly, I am not sure where you get the $20k+, but the research and feedback from the Tesla forum has the cost in the $10-15k range. Also note that batteries can be remanufactured, which will drive the price down as time goes on and more old Tesla’s reach their end of life.

 

At some point the battery replacement will be baked into the resale cost. Right now Tesla’s are averaging about 40% better resale value in comparison to their ICE counterparts, so this will probably even that out.

 

My Tesla Model 3 has 43k miles. I’ve had no battery degradation to date, and the only “maintenance” Cost I’ve had is windshield wiper fluid.

 

Here’s a test that was completed with a Model 3 at 100k miles. It’s a pretty boring video, but the punchline is that there is insignificant degradation.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/573397/tesla-model-3-100k-battery-degradation-range-test/amp/

[braindamage]

One one thing to consider. For sure you would need to replace at least the engine and transmission at 300-500k miles for an equivalent ICE car. Consider a BMW 3, the cost of engine is approximately $8-10k installed, and the transmission is $2-5k. It’s money equal.

[liquid d]

I'm sure all the makers will have their own stupid charging station adapters like phones! All these idiots can't decide on one universal type right from the get go!

[ral]

@liquid d , fast chargers are being developed by some non-car makers, like ABB, ChargePoint, BP and Shell (the last two being kind of indicative of the future trend…). It should not be an issue.

[Laz]

This is a great thread.

 

I've been in a Tesla since 2013 and we have an X and a model 3. There is just no going back to gas, even for towing the boat.

 

Now for a ski boat, I'll be first in line when an electric one comes, but it's a tougher nut to crack.

 

Using current hulls, it's about 10kWh for an 8 pass set. That's equivalent to driving my electric car about 70km. Ski boats are incredibly inefficent.

 

It's tough to get that much electrical power down at the dock. My next boat will be a Prostar. But maybe, just maybe, my next next boat will be elecric.

[chrislandy]

@Jody_Seal to add to @kirkbauer comments, using the Volt as an example EV is like using a Gremlin as an example of a good motor car.

 

A 16kWh battery is rarely used nowadays unless its a hybrid, most EV's have 60+ kWh batteries to remove the range anxiety people seem to have. It's the equivalent of a manufacturer putting a 1 gal fuel tank in a production car - complete nonsense when you think about it.

 

 

The thing about charging speed is it depends on the car and what the manufacturer installed. Each car has an onboard charger (which limits the charging speed) and the "charger" you plug in is essentially a current supply device. The most my X will charge at on AC is 55A on 3 phase (22kW, 415v), but the leaf will only charge at 30A (7kW, 220v) no matter how powerful the "charger" as that is the limit of the onboard charger. DC charging is a whole different world, which is where the superchargers (150-300kW) come into their own with the 20-40min charges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[klindy]

@kirkbauer all good corrections. The copy/paste @Jody_Seal posted above has been around for several tears and, as you said (and corrected) is mostly exaggerations and totally false statements.