Electric Boat - Ski Nautique

[Horton]

Oh gosh I really want to jump in this argument and make fun of some of you but unfortunately I think this falls under the no politics rule. Please deescalate before I start deleting posts.

[BraceMaker]

@wilecoyote indeed that whole well volcanos are worse is absolute bull spunk.

 

Even if natural events are bad it would be natural events + humans it's not like oh our bad geology eruptions happened so we dont get to emit CO2 no it's always both. What a crap argument and also do 60× more year.

 

 

[wilecoyote]

Ok, so you take the blue pill and stay in wonderland. I'm not sure I get your point.

[BraceMaker]

@wilecoyote right it's not a pill you need to take it's just blinders. One can simple google Mt. St Helen's vs human activity and then look critically at the responses. Could.it be that humans emit 10-13 mt st Helen's of CO2 daily? And I wasnt alive during mt st Helen's eruption yet it's a reference point for large eruptions... 40+ years?

 

I'm not some green freak, my garage floor is covered in drippings from air cooled boxer engines, the clouds of blue smoke out of my garage are not good for the environment.

 

But there is no need for modern daily conveyance to be that way and yes I spent 3 hours tonight trying to fix a vapor lock issue caused by fuel boiling off in a carb. That's pollution you can smell it on my clothes you can smell it in my garage.

 

You just cannot pretend this isnt a problem and you cannot blame people trying to solve it. Be critical but get on board.

 

We can all have a hobby that is gasoline boats but electric will replace it surely which I predict will lower demand on fuel which will sort of keep prices stagnate for the next 40-50 years at which point probably alternative synthetic fuels will be the rage.

[liquid d]

There will be gas vehicles and boats available until everyone on this forum is dead.

Electric ones are coming along, but the infrastructure is minimal. In 20 years or less, it'll be a tossup as to what you choose. And both types will ruin the planet one way or another, until the next big thing! yeah!

I tried a denali fin today! haha!

[UWSkier]

I'll convert my 2001 Response to electric if someone makes a decent kit that in-total weighs the same as my cast iron lump GM 5.7L and lets me distribute the power cells around to optimize wake performance.

 

I'll convert my wife's SUV (our run around town car) to an electric or PHEV gladly.

 

But I'm not converting my tow vehicle any time soon...

[Fastguy888]

As a motorsports enthusiast who puts performance first and owner of www.ev-mods.com (Electric and Gas Vehicle Performance Parts) ; I can validate that the "greenie" "environmentalist" stigma often gets in the way of enthusiasm for the growth in market share of electric drive systems. If you like electric, gas, diesel hydrogen, propane, 2-stroke; it does not have to define your tribe. Myself and most of my customers are not enthusiast of electric propulsion systems because we want to save the world; although if in geological-time data validates it has helped, that is a great upside. While the performance of an electric propulsion system in a boat is not yet on par with gas; the potential is getting closer; especially when incorporating batteries as part of the hull similarly to how Tesla and other EV's use the batteries as part of the chassis. The current Nautique/Ingenity electric drive system can be adapted into current production and may meet the needs of a few niche wake & pleasure boaters; when a proper 3-event boat is built hull-up with electric propulsion, performance advantages over gas may emerge.

[Skoot1123]

@Fastguy888 - thank you for bringing this thread back to my original intent.

 

As with everything new technology wise - it takes small incremental steps (with a giant leap every so often) to get where you want to go.

 

As development of electrification continues (on land and water) we eventually will see that trickle down. At what pace that happens is anyone’s guess.

[klindy]

Remember less than 150 years ago whale oil was the present and the future. Something “better” always comes along. The technology and the market will accept and improve it or reject it. This is no different.

[Jody_Seal]

 

[chrislandy]

@UWSkier the model X can tow pretty darn well, it's rated here (UK) for 2250kg (5000lb) which is plenty for tournament boats. I did 120 miles towing mine yesterday and it used only about 30% more "juice" than non towing, barely knew it was on the back and towed much better than my ford ranger wildtrak 3.2, it just didn't slow down or surge going up hills!

 

 

[Interjon]

There is a lot of research supporting the idea that the human mind poorly grasps and improperly evaluates risk extending beyond the personal scale or involving timelines longer than the average lifetime. This makes sense from an evolutionary fitness perspective.

 

I'll take an electric 196 please.

[Jody_Seal]

 

[Horton]

Take the green energy politics out of it. That is a complicated and nuanced conversation.

 

I still think that in 10 years more than 1/2 new cars are going to be electric. Ski boats will likely be one of the last things to make the transition, but it is coming. It is the future. Do I think we will see mainstream electric slalom boats in the next 5 years? No. In 10 years? Likely.

 

[igkya]

@Interjon Take? I'd probably take one too, if offered, but I'm not paying for one.

[UWSkier]

@chrislandy I need something that can go cross-country pulling a 7500 lb, 29 foot travel trailer. If I were only towing my ski boat, I could get by with a Rivian for my towing needs since that never goes more than 60 miles from home.

 

When electric gets to the point I can get 250 miles of range out of a 5 minute stop in a trailer-convenient charging stall/lane in the middle of nowhere on a 2 lane county highway with ubiquity, I'm in.

[Horton]

@UWSkier

You have to admit that is not a main stream need. Guys like you will be buying big gas or diesel trucks for a while. Although I am hearing about electric car batteries that are getting a 80% change in 20 minutes and then take a lot longer for the last 20%.

[The_MS]

Lots of false statements in this thread. Twitter shuts down accounts for posting false data or statements like that.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@Horton you predict 1/2 of all cars will be electric in 10 years? I want some of what you are smoking:)

 

Yeah people are lining up to buy Teslas, but those are people who would otherwise buy a BMW, Porsche or Lexus. That is a small percentage of the car buyers. You need to look and see how many people are lining up to buy Chevy Volts as their daily driver. Those are the majority of car buyers and are/will still be buying Ford, Chevy and Hyundai - largely on price point.

 

Then consider the amount of Lithium that will need to be mined to go from 2-3% of cars on the road to 50%. Without a quantum leap in battery technology, the cost of lithium will only go up and the environmental impact of mining that much lithium is not trivial.

 

Then there are the power grid updates necessary to support all the at home charging. Doable, but definitely not trivial or cheap.

 

Yes, much more complicated and nuanced once you start thinking about a few basic realities. Then add the politics back in and you have a total clusterF.

[thager]

I am going to wait until they make a Voltswagon!

[UWSkier]

@Horton that charge profile is pretty much standard for Lithium batteries. Folks are going to need to get past the notion of having a "full tank" on cross country trips unless they're parking overnight where a topping charge can bring the reserves back to 100%.

[skierjp]

FYI Ukraine has the largest amount of Lithium in the world. If things go sideways and Putin pushes the red button this whole electric car idea will be history.

[jpwhit]

A lot of people on this thread should rent a Tesla model 3 from Hertz for a weekend so they can see what electric vehicles are really like. Take it on a road trip, I think you'll be very surprised by the reality of it.

[Mastercrafter]

My dads old manager at Ford, from their early-2000s electric vehicle program, has a Tesla with a 1200+ mile range with a new battery from his tech company. It probably cost a ton of money to make happen, but it’s possible, and will probably be more mainstream before we know it.

[MISkier]

@Mastercrafter is that the car that went from Detroit to the U.P. and back on a single charge (750+ miles)?

[braindamage]

@Jody_Seal

 

cost comparison of ICE vs EV in latest pricing surge:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/03/19/cost-of-charging-ev-vs-gas-prices.html

 

Only 21.8% of US electricity is coal (and declining), which is only 170bps more than renewables (which is increasing)

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

[ral]

@skierjp, that statement on Ukraine lithium is not correct.

[Mastercrafter]

@MISkier , I’ll be honest, not sure. Dad was telling me about some Detroit —> California trips they did (with stops of course) but didn’t mention the UP.

[Horton]

Somebody please name a major car company NOT spending a $H*tTon of money developing electric cars.

[auskier]

@skierjp that is probably a bit of an over exaggeration. There will come a time where most lithium for batteries comes from seawater. It will significantly reduce the need for mining in the traditional sense.

The transition to EV isnt happening by next week. It has taken 150 years to get to this point with gas powered transportation. EV transition will be drastically quicker and will happen whether you like it or not. The best thing is that there will be greater choice and freedom in the market for consumers. Why do we have to continue to be 'bent over the barrel'? To be anti-EV or hydrogen doesn't make sense. You will have the freedom to buy a large gas truck and spend a hundred dollars to fill it for many years to come. Alternatively you will be able to charge your battery for the cost of a coffee.

The 'green' argument aside, would you rather your electric car/boat be 100% powered by domestically produced and mined coal, or, oil/gas which has a pump price strongly influenced by international players and countries whom often dislike western democracies? If you dont believe that EV's are 'greener' then that's fine, but there are numerous other benefits too. Go drive a model S plaid and tell me that isn't a bad a$$ car!

[klindy]

@Horton you’re exactly right. EVERY car company is spending money on EV and new car companies are popping up because of it. Because the market is asking for it. It’ll take some time but it’ll get there. Remember the Edsel came nearly 50 years after the car was “invented”. The cycle is a LOT faster now.

[MISkier]

@Mastercrafter this is the story:

 

https://www.freep.com/story/money/business/columnists/carol-cain/2022/01/05/tesla-model-s-our-next-energy-gemini-battery/9101549002/

[Mastercrafter]

@MISkier - yup, that’s it, thanks. Searched but didn’t find it. Mujeeb is a cool guy and knows his batteries. I hear Elon doesn’t like him, though.

[DW]

Not every car company is; FCA does not although the PSA part does, Subaru and Suzuki don’t have EV’s in the pipeline but do have hybrids or will have. Well Ferrari has a hybrid but come on, I want to hear that V-12 scream, they need to be exempt. Several are outsourcing to acquire EV technology. Ford is interesting, dividing ICE and EV to two separate groups. Basically as JTH noted most are going all in. I need to follow up on Tatra and Lada.

[ral]

https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-says-new-solterra-ev-sells-out-first-72-hours/amp

[skierjp]

Chevrolets next C8 Corvette is the E Ray ( Hybrid). Rumor is I it will be within the year. The ZO6 has just been released but production hasn’t started yet so the E Ray is next. I wonder what the government subsidies are to the car manufacturers? It’s all about the money.

A little more research on Lithium. NBC news was the source of saying Ukraine had the most Lithium. After a little more digging it looks like China is at the top of the list.

I wonder what the parameters are for the gas guzzler tax? I paid a hefty amount on my ZO6 and can get over 20 mpg IF I drive the speed limit. But, who buys a 650 hp car and drives like your grandmother?

[ral]

Lithium is abundant in the planet. China is not at the top of the list. The largest ones reserves are in South America and Australia. But abundant enough almost anywhere.

 

There is not a big risk of a geopolitical play/squeeze on lithium reserves.

[chrislandy]

@UWSkier that's a pretty specific and non typical use!

 

BUT, I was saying similar (tow the boat 150 miles, not faffing with charging time etc) 2 years ago about my truck and going electric, now we have got rid of the truck and have a Nissan Leaf for daily running around and a Tesla Model X for me to do longer trips and towing. The leaf charges in 2hrs at home and the Tesla takes 6-7 (essentially overnight). The Tesla will do 4hrs of "normal" driving before needing a full charge, so 40-50mins break every 4hrs on a long journey is perfectly acceptable to me. The newer ones take even less time.

 

Do I miss the truck? damn yes, but when diesel is £2/l (circa 11.50-12$ US gal) then I miss it a lot less, $210 for 300 miles vs $34 in electric for the same distance, I can wait for a few mins to charge up and I do so with a smug face...

 

 

Similarly, I run my boat on propane rather than gas, it's <1/4 of the price, so I can ski for 4x+ the amount for the same money, the "green" benefits are just a biproduct (cleaner burning when setup correctly and less hydrocarbons in the water)

[jpwhit]

@Horton, you are exactly right. Not only that, but it's amazing to the extent that they have halted pretty much all R&D on gasoline engines. My work has me in contact with the technology leaders at just about every major auto company and the Tier 1 suppliers such as Bosch, Continental, Denso, etc. I haven't seen such a dramatic and absolute shift in direction in my entire career.

[VONMAN]

@MISkier Very interesting article, but not real world driving. Not 75mph but 55mph. So are they suggesting going Back to the Future. Real world driving speed is 75mph on the highways and in Michigan, it seems to be a suggestion. Cars and boats have totally different torque load cycles. And totally different power consumption rates. Great discussion and battery breakthroughs seem to be coming every quarter, the end cost will be just as great. Let's get back on topic of electric boats. Anybody with real world electric ski boat data? Hello, anyone........Bueller..Bueller

[MISkier]

@VONMAN I think they did the test at 55 mph to approximate the EPA rating test. I would like to see the 75 mph test as well. Maybe only 600 miles? Although, the article did not say how much battery charge remained after the 750 miles. So, it's possible even more range was left on the table after the test.

[brody]

Canada has set a zero emission law by 2035. Car makers may or may not want to go to an alternative, but the governments eventually will make it law

 

[Hucklefin]

@brody and you just nailed why people associate BEV's with those darn dirty liberals! And made it into a political issue instead of a performance, engineering/development, and innovation one.

 

I'm not a green freak at all, but the innovation and potential is awesome with alternative fuels. Just so happens certain politicians make it their main focus to put the axe to fossil fuels & it drives the division amongst the people, which is a shame. They need to go about it in a different way. Especially noawadays when people get so uppity about literally anything political.

[klindy]

@Hucklefin true but prioritizing mandates and incentives have driven policy for decades. Changing those priorities has both positive and negative effects in certain sectors of the economy. Smart business reacts or anticipates those changes and finds ways to make money. Politics today are so polarized that the shifts are huge rather than more subtle. Change is inevitable.

[VONMAN]

@MISkier Sense your talking car (or truck) put a ski boat behind it (MasterCraft or Nautique) and watch what happens. That trip to your favorite vacation lake just got longer and slower.

[MISkier]

@VONMAN my usual vacation drive is either 155 miles or 250 miles, depending on which family cottage we visit. My Malibu RLX is at least 500 pounds lighter than the MC or Nautique. So, it might be doable. It's moot right now, as I don't have either an electric car/truck/SUV/crossover or an electric boat. It will probably be a few years before I'm in the market for either, but I'm observing now. I'd really like the GM Silverado EV to hit the right range and price point, as they are planning to produce it in the Avalanche configuration with the fold-down mid-gate option.

 

Time will tell. One thing I haven't done is actually drive an EV, as some have suggested to experience, so I still need to do that. I was a passenger in a Volt many years ago. It was fine, but also not anything like the performance they have now with full size trucks hitting 0-60 in something like 4 seconds. However, the confluence of cost, range, charge time, and long term cost of ownership/maintenance still have to reach the balance needed by most consumers (who aren't millionaires).

 

Oh, and I am not interested at all in any self-driving features. No thanks.

[Golfguy]

@horton Yes who can refuse the free government money. Subsidies anyone?

[braindamage]

@Golfguy do you think fossil fuels aren’t subsidized? The US spends approximately $20B/year subsidizing coal, natural gas, and crude oil. The EU spends about 55B Euro/year.

 

 

[BK]

Traditional automakers have been getting them for decades: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-mazda-jobs-factbox-idUSKBN1AK2BI

[Golfguy]

@braindamage This is true, however my point is that all of the car manufacturers that are jumping on the EV wagon are not doing it because they expect these vehicles are a profit center for them. They are doing it because there are subsidies available form government programs to further the climate agenda, or to boost the EPA required MPG quotas. This is dangerous because it amounts to a degree of government price fixing using tax payer money.