Electric Boat - Ski Nautique

[chrislandy]

Still better than 100% of your inefficient IC engine on fossil fuels ;)

[Andre]

Where i live,elecric is 100% hydro and dirt cheap. It's the price tag of the boat that is a major stop.

[chrislandy]

It's not EV Koolaid, the issue is going to be gas/diesel supply very soon.

 

In UK & Europe, new gas and diesel cars sales are going to be banned from 2030. And for some stupid reason AutoGAS has stopped supplying LPG to fuel stations in the UK. Gas will start to become rarer & more expensive in the next 10 years.

 

 

The batteries are going to be the point of development, I still think something like H2FC will be the overall go-to if they can sort out supply & distribution.

 

I've seen some interesting developments using aluminium batteries (non rechargeable but much longer life and easily recyclable back into new batteries).

 

One thing overlooked a lot is the lifespan, and it's use after primary use. So far, both my EV's are 4+ years old, one has lost about 5% of it's original capacity/range (done 45k miles), the other has more range than when it left the factory (done 62k miles) this is from firmware/software updates so likely that it's gone down a bit...

 

But, once the "useful" life in the EV is done, people are using the battery packs for home storage etc i.e. other non critical uses, so it eeks out the lifespan even more - you can even get dual use out of the EV now, charge during the day with solar and discharge into the house overnight.

 

sidebar: because of the war, our fuel prices have already gone up, since writing a couple of days ago regular gas has gone up from $8 to $10/gal and super is closer to $12/gal. At Christmas it was $6-7/gal (obs the conversion depends on the exchange rate, but from a GBP point of view it was £1.00/l 13 months ago, £1.30/l at Christmas 2021, £1.50/l last week and £1.80/l yesterday)

[Jody_Seal]

 

I went green years ago!!

America's is or are all Petroleum based economy's as well as societys. From Barrow Alaska to Southern most tip of Argentina !

$$$$$$$%%%%%%$$$$$$$$$%%%%%%%$$$$$

 

The electric boat idea is toys for rich boys. The rest of us are going to rely on petrol based tow rigs for many years to come.

 

I drove one of nautiques early prototype .meh! Its a boat!

Funny I can see it now all those promo guys pulling up with their big diesel trucks towing E-boats!

 

 

[unksskis]

The Jeep Wrangle 4xe is an example to look at. 21 mile distance on all electric, then hybrid option and gas option. Perfect concept for a private lake ski boat. Electric for your morning sets, hybrid or gas for your all day/tournaments. It is only slightly heavier than the big engine Wrangler 392.

[Wish]

What happens when a manufacturer(s) decide not to make that battery for that particular boat. Aftermarket batteries for purchase?? Doubtful. Try and find a battery for the Chev Volt.

[Andre]

@BraceMaker If that weak ceiling fan motor is still pushing against your finger, then isn't it

0 rpm,100% torque ?

[ral]

There are many very partial truths and some false statements in many eco-driven lithium mining articles out there.

 

Electric cars will become cheaper than internal combustion cars in the next few years. Performance of electric cars is in another league at the same price point, as well as maintenance costs. Electricity is becoming less and less dependent on fossil fuels in (very) large part due to solar and wind generation being much cheaper

 

Electricity transport is instantaneous, and cheaper than for any other fuel.

 

In the future, collectors will pay more for less performant, more expensive to maintain and less reliable internal combustion cars and boats. As we do for mechanical watches.

[kirkbauer]

Up until my first boat was delivered yesterday, we were an all-electric household, with two Teslas. I'm not an environmentalist; they are just awesome vehicles in pretty much every way. On the other hand, I do hate waste, and I think EVs are less wasteful, so I'm happy about that. I have also been happy that I haven't been having to buy gas -- at least until I start using that boat!

 

I think electric boats will absolutely be the future, especially for watersports. They do spend most of their time parked or at idle. The challenge will be the charging infrastructure -- tossing some solar panels on the roof of your dock isn't going to do it unless you only use the boat a couple of hours a week or so. Each of my Tesla chargers are 50 amps and it can take as much as 8 hours to fully charge (if I'm pretty much empty, which isn't very common). I can drive for ~3 hours on that charge. Boats use more energy than cars do, so you'd probably want even more batteries and even better charging.

 

But for us water skiers, it is probably not going to happen. From my perspective, there doesn't seem to be a lot of money in the pure ski boat category, so it's going to take a while before they'll want to do a full electric redesign. That's my guess. More importantly, the weight of the batteries probably won't lend itself to the kinds of wakes that we like. That might change in the future if we get lighter batteries (e.g. Lithium Air).

[Wish]

 

[skibrain]

I actually have waterskied behind our catamaran. Wind powered ski days by necessity are a little choppy though.

 

.

 

[Golfguy]

Battery technology certainly needs to come a long way to avoid unintended Enviromental consequences. But remember batteries to not make energy, they store it. Coal is still used to produce 20% or more of the worlds energy supply. Look to the broader picture, fission creates all of the universe's energy. We need to focus more time on how energy is created. IMO

[BraceMaker]

@Golfguy True. How we create it, how we move it, how we store it, does it evaporate? Does it come from a crop that consumes water?

 

Do we buy fertilizers from Russia ship them on a boat, use them to improve our corn crop, burn diesel to harvest the corn, refine the diesel to ship to a farm to power the tractor to plow the field to grow the corn to make the ethanol to ship the ethanol to a refinery to combine it with gasoline to truck to the BP station to fuel your truck.

 

Does that coal need to be mined to dragged to the surface to be hauled by trucks that burn the diesel that we refined and hauled.to the truck stop to haul to... it's on and on man.

 

Inputs and outputs.

 

The fact of the matter is that we live on a planet. Science thinks Earth is like 4.5 billion years old. Most of what we now consume as fossil fuels comes from trees and plants that grew, died, and rotted more than 65 Million years ago.

 

Those are the inputs.

 

Humans will consume all of the available coal that is accessible inside of the next 150 years. Probably less more like the next 100 by most estimates.

 

We will consume the available oil reserves in about half of that

 

We are not making more, it took probably 200 million years to create the resource that humans depleated since the 1700s.

 

So it doesnt matter what you feel about engines or feel about horsepower or believe about global warming. Humans will in the next 100 years need to derive all of our energy output from solar, nuclear, geothermal, wind or hydro.

 

Because within 100 years your gas engine is going to not be burning fuel derived from oil.

 

Beyond that global climate change will start impacting where we live and where we grow food.

 

This is all proven it's not up for debate.

 

[ALPJr]

“All gas is grass”… the fisherman in ‘Blues’ one of my fav’ books by John Hershey. And yes, from plants that decayed many millions of years ago.

[swc5150]

The earth is not running out of oil. We're over-populated with people who don't want to drill for it.

[rockdog]

ooohhh controversial @swc5150 !

[skibrain]

@BraceMaker The coal reserves in the U.S. are much deeper than your 150 yr number. Yes it is a finite resource, but it’s a much longer ramp to get to alternatives. Especially in ND. Strip-mined coal is burned nearby and converted to E. Or transported by rail. The prairie is returned to use in a highly regulated reclamation process.

 

North Dakota (my home state) has the second-largest known reserves of lignite in the world (behind only Australia) with an estimated 25 billion tons of recoverable resources. It’s estimated that the state’s reserves will last more than 835 years at the current rate of consumption.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@BraceMaker you stated:

"Beyond that global climate change will start impacting where we live and where we grow food.

 

This is all proven it's not up for debate." (bold mine)

 

That is absolute bullshit. It is also a political argument, NOT a scientific one, that has no place on this board. I would refute it in more detail, but that discussion does not belong here.

 

If you want to talk about how great Teslas are (I think they are cool, but won't save the planet) or when we will get an electric boat, that's great, just keep the political brainwashing out of it.

[DW]

Given the comments on this forum relative to practicing behind what pulls a tournament, can we assume that the tournament skiing community is ready to write the check for an electric boat when they become the defacto tourney pulling boat? Just want to point out what the ramifications are as we 'push' towards and alternate source of propulsion. Just my opinion, looks to me the ski side of watersports is way too small a market to be anything other than the last adopter. Battery weight is going to be a hindrance in making a world class slalom wake tug.

No question, electric propulsion is going to be a significant % of the transportation market in the (near) future. Although, just like the transition to LS based IC engines, the boat industry delayed until the iron small block supply vanished before doing it (LS engine is the replacement to the iron small block GM V8). I imagine the boat and ski boat industry would follow that same business model. The comments relative to rising or high boat costs certainly justify that position.

[BraceMaker]

@Bruce_Butterfield I mean I don't approach it as one, I don't this for a living but my undergrad was in water resource management and plant developmental biology. If you limit the scope of my comments to only people in the United States you can believe what you want to believe. But once you start branching out your opinions into what the global scientific community believes I have to start calling BS on claiming my input is political.

 

Politically I am a former conservative as an aside and basically just believe in being condescending of extreme behavior or opinion. IE don't ban gas cars heck half my cars have manual transmissions and are precatalytic converters. But that doesn't mean 90% of commuters in cities would do well with electrification.

 

If a feasible electric ski boat comes out I am 100% in, my boat sits on a lift with shore power and gets maybe 20 hours a month of use.

 

 

But in re: my comments globally yes the SCIENTIFIC community agrees that climate change is going to impact where we live and where we grow food and no that is not up for debate and is not political unless your politics are find one thing you agree with and go with that.

[kirkbauer]

Yes, my guess that a proper water skiing boat would be the last one to go, hopefully once they have found much lighter energy storage options.

 

But overall, pleasure boating could be a great use-case for electric propulsion. I think it makes the most sense for a boat that is stored at a dock, etc. They spend much more time sitting than going, and for many boats, weight isn't a huge issue. For a boat that is stored in your garage and then transported to the lake, weight probably matters more, and you are going to want more than a couple of hours of usable time once you get it in the water.

 

But for boats sitting at the dock when not in use, getting electricity to them is easier and safer than getting fuel to them. In other words, here at my home, running a charger down to my boat is easier, cheaper, and safer, than trying to install some sort of at-home gasoline-distribution system. It would be really cool to never have to go to the marina to get fuel.

 

I agree it is best to stay away from political discussions here, so I'll try to do that now. But there are just so many advantages to electric propulsion and most of them have nothing to do with politics or the environment. As I mentioned before, I'm not an environmentalist, I just appreciate less waste and more elegant solutions. Here are some things to consider:

 

You can charge at home or at the dock (very convenient).

You can mostly charge at night when electricity usage is at its lowest point and power plants are sitting idle. This makes better use of our existing infrastructure and will probably save you money (e.g. my overnight energy costs are almost nothing here in Georgia).

Better and more instant torque

Much simpler and less maintenance than internal combustion

We could argue about whether we'll run out of oil or not, but one thing is almost for certain: as we use the easier sources of oil, we will have to turn to more difficult sources of oil, which likely means more expensive. And internal combustion engines only run on oil, that's it.

Electric motors can run on anything -- not directly, obviously, but we have a ton of ways to generate electricity, and we are likely to find even more ways in the future

As our need for oil reduces, if that money was redirected towards research I think we have some real good possibilities for the future: much better solar panels, fusion, and plenty we can't even think of right now.

Ultimately, as long as vehicles are tied to oil, our options are limited. Think of it as a society that doesn't have the concept of money. An economy that solely works on the barter system is significantly hampered. When money is introduced as a medium of exchange, society prospers. It's the same thing here -- electricity is the medium of exchange. Any electric vehicle can use it, and there are tons of ways to produce it. You don't have to design each vehicle for each specific energy source.

[swc5150]

But as long as vehicles need body panels, tires, electronics, dashboards, seats, etc. they will be tied to oil. An inboard ski boat is a 20' petroleum product whether the motor is ICE or not :)

[kirkbauer]

That's fine with me. I'm not an environmentalist, and I'm not anti-oil. Use the oil to make the boat, but don't waste it pushing it around when electricity can do it much better.

[ral]

The main environmental concern with oil, natural gas and coal is the CO2 release when burning it.

 

Many forget to mention that an electric engine is a far superior alternative in terms of efficiency (over 85% of energy used is converted to mechanical energy, vs less than 40% for internal combustion) and much lower maintenance cost.

[jpwhit]

Based on my last 6 months of driving, my Tesla Model Y is costing me the equivalent 95 cents per gallon of gas, compared to the BMW M3 it replaced. On top of that, it's really the most fun and exciting car to drive that I've ever owned. I can't imagine how much I'd have to spend for a gasoline car to get 3.5 second 0-60. And the off the line torque is truly mind blowing.

 

So why are we arguing about the environment? I just don't get it.... I expect an electric ski boat would be equally impressive.

[kirkbauer]

Well, except maybe the weight issue. With current technology I think it would be a heavier boat, which is not great for the wakes. Lithium Air batteries might solve that.

 

But I agree with the rest of your points, as I'm also a 100% Tesla household. It's just superior technology; any environmental benefits are just icing on the cake from my perspective.

[BraceMaker]

@jpwhit yes. For some reason people keep looking at gas engines and thinking they're the cats meow. 120 years ago at the turn of the century gas engines were crap, horses still worked better. My mom is old enough that she grew up and her father still had their last draft horse on the farm. He had only gotten his first gasoline tractor after WWI for the farm.

 

Fuel right now in the height of the pandemic is cheaper per labor hour to pay for it on average that it was in 1980 - but we still think its crazy.

 

Waterskiing as a sport came about when outboards got powerful enough and electric will surpass it.

 

Natural gas suppliers make commercials to convince you to buy a natural gas stove so that you will buy a natural gas water heater and a natural gas furnace so that they call sell you more gas. And for some reason they pay social media influencers to... convince you to buy gas stoves?? https://cookingwithgas.org/

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@BraceMaker not to start a pissing contest, but the "global scientific community" IS political even though they have "scientists" as some of the boards on the international organizations. It doesn't take much digging to find alot of scientists who disagree with the "SCIENTIFIC community" statements.

 

Step back and think about how basic scientific process works. You ALWAYS question and debate issues.

 

If the existential threat of CO2 was a scientific issue, it would be presented as "here are facts X, Y and Z that show the world will end in 10 years, here are facts A, B and C that show it won't and the case is overwhelming that we are in deep shit." It would also consider the cost (financial, environmental and geo-political) of options for action. Any new facts or data would be considered as more is learned. Is anything remotely like that happening, or is it balls to wall on wind/solar in spite of all the negative aspects of those?

 

On the other hand, a political argument would go like "Everyone agrees CO2 will kill everyone in 10 years and we have to adopt wind/solar energy [and ignore all negative costs]. Even though none of the predictions of global catastrophe over the last 50 years have come true, it will really happen this time. Anyone who disagrees is an ignorant science denier". Sound familiar?

 

I do think the electrical vehicle and boat technology has a lot of potential benefits. It has a way to go before it will be comparable (cost, performance, longevity, weight, etc) with petrol powered vehicles. The free market is best for technology developments. Its the politically driven agendas that give me the heartburn.

[ral]

@Bruce_Butterfield , the market is driving electric vehicles. Tesla is leading the pack not because of subsidies, but because people line up to buy them. Because, among other things, you can own a car that can go 0-60 in 3 seconds without being a millionaire.

 

Where I live (when not in West Palm Beach), solar and wind are now 25% of the electricity generation because they are cheaper. Not because of subsidies.

[dbaconaz]

priced way to high!!!

[swbca]

You won't remember the frenzy about climate change . . The extreme acceleration in the decline of global insect biomass caused by human activity will decimate the world's food production way before fossil fuel consumption or lithium mining. You may not of heard of this because bugs don't vote or have lobbyists. Only if we could get Greta Thunberg to take up the cause of hermaphroditic food crops.

 

Skiers are doing their part. Wally balls have a solar light accessory.

[BraceMaker]

@Bruce_Butterfield the free market overwhelmingly wants alternatives and are buying them.

 

Your argument is flawed primarily in that it makes the assumption that gas is competing with electric, it is not gas plus fuel subsidies competes with electric. What was the $ figure that propped up fossil fuels again? Something like 11M a minute in 2020 right?

If gas was actually at market value I believe the stat is more like 14$/gallon.

 

Do I want to pay that? no but that would surely push the development curve.

 

Science has predicted a trend, we are doing worse than that trend.

 

As climate change continues it's not going to be boaters not having boat ramps, well it will be that but it's going to be crop failures in countries that rely on those crops to not just starve to death. Again not political just happening.

 

 

[BG1]

@BraceMaker Are you saying 11 million dollars a minute?

[Golfguy]

Read "Unsettled" by Steven Kooning. It is an interesting read.

[BraceMaker]

@BG1 that's essentially what the IMF determined https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds

 

Its not US tax payers spending 11M$ day it is the cost of fossil fuel consumption including the intrinsic costs being realized elsewhere.

 

@Golfguy - do a quick deep dive on that book by climate scientists and just read the counter points - it is an interesting read, but so are the reponse papers.

 

 

 

[skierjp]

I read somewhere that the guy that developed the weather channel said climate change is a hoax. It’s all about government and subsidizing big business. Another article said one Mt St. Helens eruption negates everything man has ever done to stop climate change. The bombing in Ukraine has probably set us back who knows how many years.

It’s so stupid that our government is so worried about going green and not using the energy we have but they want to get oil from nations half way around the world. I wonder what the carbon footprint of a oil tanker is?

Electric cars and boats will definitely be a thing of the future but not on the timeline of what the government has projected.

[wilecoyote]

@skierjp "I read somewhere" and "Another article" are not credible ways to make a point. Maybe you could cite the article or present some data to back such a claim? Who is the guy that developed the weather network? Here's an article I found from the US Geological Survey that I found in about a 20 second google search. https://www.usgs.gov/programs/VHP/volcanoes-can-affect-climate If you don't want to read it, spoiler alert, the answer is no.

[swc5150]

John Coleman founded the Weather Channel didn't believe in man-made climate change.

 

Nice to have options, whether ICE or EV, but I just don't want it forced on me due to something political. I grew in the 70's when global cooling was the "scientific consensus" after all:)

[jipster43]

Global cooling was never the scientific consensus. FYI.

[swc5150]

You're right and neither is global warming actually. There are/were opinions on both sides. Well, I'm out. Taking my 8mpg TT V8 out for a ride now >:)

[liquid d]

The pure sound of a Chevelle SS drop top with a big ole v8 and headers sure beats the shit out of an electric anything on a Friday Nite Cruise! Right Jody!?

I may get an electric something in the next few years...but they may have to add some sound or something other than a golf cart..haha!

[BK]

@liquid d Ford did that years ago with their Ecoboost six cylinders. There was an option so that when you floored it, the sound of a V8 under acceleration would come through your speakers.

Maybe they’ll add that to the Mach-E or their F-150 Lightning.

[skierjp]

.

[slow]

What’s your point

[hammerski]

I’ve been out of town for two weeks this past month, the reason it’s low. But! It factors in my PUD rates, and the average price per gallon in my area. My 2014 Model S with 160k miles has been the best car I’ve ever owned. I think an electric ski nautique on a private lake makes a lotta sense. Then throw some solar panels on the boat house ?

 

[VONMAN]

Dumb Question? Who on this forum has a electric ski boat? And how does it compare to a gas ski boat? Cost of boat, fuel cost, weight, performance, wake, time to refuel and actual running time on the water before fueling. Anyone out there? I'm not talking about boat companies data, but a real ski boat owners.........Bueller, Bueller.

[swbca]

My son took delivery of a low mileage Audi E Tron Sportback 3 weeks ago. He had his electric utility company install a charging station in his garage.

 

It has reporting feature so he could calculate or see cost for miles driven. Gets off-peak rates and other breaks.

 

Audi E tron

$20 for 790 miles.

 

My Audi S4 requires premium and gets poor mileage - yesterday's prices

$158 for 790 miles highway

 

How does this translate into the E-Boat total cost of ownership ? Boats get lousy mileage, but the difference in energy cost between an E-Boat and Boat should be the same if you could charge it with the same $/kWh as the car.

 

He started watching for public charging stations and noticed there were long lines of Teslas waiting for a charge. He commented it would be difficult to have an EV as your only V with the current level of access to recharging. (Just his opinion) Assuming you need a car for leaving town occasionally.

[klindy]

John Coleman may have founded the Weather Channel and may not believe in climate change. He also said it would be sunny on Thursday and it rained all day …

[thager]

I have been following "Rich Rebuilds" for a while. Basically a guy that converts cars to electric but sometimes reverse. Lots of interesting info like battery maint etc. Tesla does not fix. They replace. Cell bad? Replace.entire batteryat 21-24K. Cracked cooling hose? Same. Take a look. Pretty interesting stuff that he sees!

[chrislandy]

@thager same for all car companies these days, something went wrong on my ford truck a few months ago, Ford wanted to replace the engine for 7k, I fixed it for a few quid and an afternoon on the tools.