Anyone understand what Smith is doing in this image?

[Ed_Johnson]

Reaching down and forward works very well to bring your hips and COM ahead of the ski and closer to the inside turning Radius coming into and off the apex...It will also help in being more open to the boat at the finish of the turn and enhance a better leveraged position....This provides for a shorter, stronger pull, allowing for an earlier edge change...This also translates a conversion of acceleration, beginning off the apex, creating the speed that allows the ski to ski into angle..Thus this angle, associated with a building of pressure on the ski, converts the speed into momentum for the preturn.

 

There is a distinct difference between carrying SPEED, vs MOMENTUM, into the preturn. Speed will keep pressure on the rope and make it next to impossible to reach down and forward... there is simply to much pressure to overcome..While Momentum allows a feeling of being free of the boat and lets centrifugal force carry the ski to a wider position. You can actually see Nate, and even Cp, with just finger tips, holding the handle at the apex...I like to call this "Light and Tight."

 

Turning in from the Light and Tight position allows you to create angle without "FORCE."...Thus hiding the affects from ZO, and helping to attain a strong leveraged position before ZO knows your there.

 

This being the catalyst for the ingredients that allows the early edge change that Nate, Seth, and others are famous for.

[A_B]

I guess I see it that he loads more right out of the turn than anyone else. He is not light on the line and hiding from ZO, he uses it to sling him out after the center of the wake. The low handle helps him stay stacked over the ski and not at the mercy of the end of the rope and he turns when he wants and very little wasted motion. His standard turn reminds me of the turn Kim Laskoff held onto to win the Worlds against Camille back in the late 70's. One word for it, hellacious.

[MAD11]

@ab not sure that is correct. Most drivers will tell you Nate is the lightest on the line of all pro skiers. Sometimes you can't even feel if he turned.

 

[A_B]

That may be a function of him not weighing too much. Look at how high he rolls the ski up,,where his spray changes, etc... He loads more out of the turn than anyone in the business. Just what I am seeing, but I am an old fat dude that can't ski half of what I use to.

[DanE]

I think he picks up the boat early out of the buoy but he applies the load smooth and progressively.

That way he is constantly accelerating into the first wake and by the time he gets there he has picked up so much speed that he never has to load in excess. (speed = angle)

Jmho

[A_B]

@DanE, look at a couple videos in slomo of him at say 38 or shorter, nothing gradual about it in my opinion. He is fighting for as much angle as he can get as soon as the boat picks up the rope.

[A_B]

@Horton, can you use your connections to get an interview with Nate? I know I have read that he has stated that if his peak pull is in the middle of the waker, he is late. Maybe early in November before the 7 words are used up for the month.. :)

[auskier]

@AB does'nt he ride a 67"? big ski too for his weight = lighter feel behind the wheel.

There is a difference between being set early off the ball (which nate does VERY well) and taking LOAD early off the ball. Out of 2-4 Nate is super quick and probably holds better speed through the course than anyone. The handle moves to in-front of him as he hooks up, and because he counters so nicely he is already set. I think his real load zone is white wash to 1st wake. Its most obvious on his gate turn in. He rolls in a little then 'brings the heat'.

[A_B]

@auskier, I wouldn't argue against what you are saying, just I don't agree with him being light on the line and taking a gradual path... Watching him makes my back hurt.. oh to be young again!

[DanE]

@AB-- Totally agree he takes a ton of angle early out of the buoy, that´s why the load come on progressively.

If You try to ski with poor angle out of the buoy, sooner or later you´re going to have to take the load in order to get to the other side in time, that scenario creates a peak load making your back ache.

Jmho

[clemsondave]

Maybe a different view. I see it as a wind up to ripping the turn. It's difficult to turn hard without winding up the 'spring' somehow. I would bet the next frame shows the handle rising up and some counter rotation of the shoulders. This loads the core (or spring). Once the spring is fully loaded, he releases it and the ski will snap around. Lowering the handle is a prelude to counter rotation.

 

PS

I agree with being free of the boat. I actually open up my fingers and let the handle just rest there until I finish the turn. When I am skiing well, I feel like I could let go and the handle would stay there until I'm ready to tuck it back into my core (of course, probably wouldn't happen in reality).

[jlittle]

I'll bet if you ask Nate, what are you doing in this photo?, he'll say... "skiing". No no, I mean the posting or planking. "Uh what?, I'm just trying to make it around the next buoy."

[MAD11]

Focused on doing this today. Seemed to keep me moving out and over my ski better. Ski came back under me quicker and I was in a better position to load, but didn't need to load really early. Could just ride the line. Had less tendency to fall inward or back. Was much more beneficial on my off side than heel side. This was a fairly easy thing to focus on and wasn't a big change. Ran 6 easy 35's back to back just working on this and still trying to get accustomed to my grip switch, which I changed a little over 2 weeks ago, but not that many sets yet.

[Horton]

Well we got our 7 words for the month. Now we wait for the rest.

[A_B]

Good thing it is close to the end of the month....

[ForrestGump]

And Krista got her two words outa Nate, apparently. 5+2=6 buoys? ;) Is that how the new slalom math works?

[Razorskier1]

I think what he is doing in that picture is skiing a lot better than the rest of us!

[A_B]

@NateSmith, next time forget the "Hi guys". It used up some words.... We will assume you are saying hello. :)

[FrankS]

I looked at @NateSmith 's profile. In the place where you put your real name it says "this is totally fake." He also joined today.

[A_B]

You can freeze any number of videos of Nate, and this is sort of a "normal" turn and hookup... I don't see any passive angle. The quote I remember is Schnitz asking him where he wants to change edges and he said "by the second wake at the latest."

 

 

[Chef23]

@AB I think when the line gets really short there is no such thing as passive angle. It gets violent as the rope gets short.

[A_B]

Historically, most of the top 36 guys change edges at the second wake sooner. sometimes I thought Mapple changed edge in the air after hitting the first wake. I know not possible, but sure had the appearance of landing on the turning edge. Cox did too.

 

The thing I don't follow is that when slowed to 34, I don't think it means you have to pull all the way out to the ball and take a path with less angle to be successful. That may be a way that a few top MM skiers do it, but there are different ways to do it. Not many attempted to ski like Kjellander, but you can't argue against his success. Pick a path that works for your body type, strength, and agility.

[Ed_Johnson]

For Nate's own words, read March WSM, The Perfect Release: "QUOTE"

 

Nate Smiths Cross Course Attack

 

Your chances of a perfect release or edge change into the next buoy are much greater if you build your attack angle and speed early. "I try to have my hardest load between the white wash and the first wake." Smith explains. "Once I bring my hips to the handle out of the turn, I want my shoulders, hips, and everything else facing down course - square with the boat." He says that when he gets to this point, he's giving about 85% of his maximum load.

 

"End of quote"

[Jordan]

I would guess that the move ultimately promotes a quicker turn by (pre) loading the tip...the sooner the turn is completed the sooner he can start accelerating.

 

If it does 'load the tip" for the turn, maybe it allows him to set-up the ski with less tip than he would otherwise need...allowing for faster cross course speed?????

[Horton]

@Ed Johnson

the fact that he wants to be square with the boat baffles me. I wonder the logic? Maybe it is to get his mass forward? I understand the old NewSchool idea but it is hard to be powerful in that stance.

 

Also do you want me to change you user name so @replies work? I would change it to Ed_Johnson or EdJohnson

[A_B]

@Horton, don't be messin with Ed's Johnson... ok, just couldn't resist..

 

Nate drops his keister down like a west coaster when he gets hit with a big load, but you don't see that until he gets right up against the wall. Andy sometimes from the side looked like he was about to drop his bum in the water, so it seems likely that this is a COM move needed when open to the boat.

 

I have tried this successfully on my onside, but can't seem to do it on my offside without straining my lower back, so I am obviously too old and stiff, or not doing it right..

[ForrestGump]

If you watch Nate(like the 1/4 speed video in this thread), he very much does a west coast style, Marcus Brown looking turn with his head and shoulders facing downcourse on his on side turns(2/4/6). Not so much on his offside. There he starts to close off and turn his head and shoulders cross course by the time he reaches the apex.

[Ed_Johnson]

@Horton...Yes, please change it to EdJohnson.

 

If you look at the picture in WSC that accompanies Nates statement above, you will see he gets COM in the direction of travel and is in a very powerful leveraged position.

 

The old saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words," applies here.

[jayski]

@Horton square to the boat and low is a more powerfull position than anything else, it's pretty basic, look at any strongman comp or sled pulling exercise, square and low pays off, no different in slalom...a person will exert less effort to achieve the same result if they lower their COM and square up...

[andjules]

@ShaneH I've also been noticing how much (especially in older videos) he leads the finish of the turn with his head on the offside. It makes me think about two things:

- While I understand the downside of overturning/rushing the turn, I wonder if sometimes we talk a little too much about being patient and waiting for the ski to come around. It's important, but watching Nate's offside turn reminds me that we're not just along for the ride...

- I wonder if we get too attached to universal theory/principles and don't talk enough about the differences between offside and onside.

Anyhow, that's all a little off topic.

[Jordan]

It seems that being square to the boat is what allows his ski to move from in between the handle and the boat out to the edge change without having to rotate his upper body.

 

In an old school closed position, this would happen later because the rope would force you to rotate your upper body at the end of your long pull.

 

Nate is done with his pulling phase so early that he probably couldn't rotate his upper body in time to facilitate the edge change, if he was closed to the boat.

 

It no doubt helps that he appears to be made of rubber. He has no problem having his ski point one way and his torso another...my back would break - lol

[Dirt]

@Horton I am not sure why the hip, shoulders facing the boat baffles you. Just go out and try the vision deal Terry Winter talked about in the video a while back.

To summarize, as soon as you know your ski will get around one ball, look up at the boat guides in front of the boat until they disappear (the boat will get between you and them) then look at two ball. As soon as you know your ski will get around two ball, look up at the boat guides. Repeat. This opens up your hips and shoulders to the boat and you will get monster angle and be super smooth if you do it right.

[gregy]

@jordan agreed. I was never very flexible but now that I'm in my mid 40's its gotten worse. I stretch almost every morning, hate to see it if I didn't.

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton hips and shoulders facing the boat is the most efficient (easiest on the body) position. It helps untalented people like myself shift mass in the direction of travel from apex to wake ==> acceleration = speed = angle without load = outbound momentum into next buoy without getting pulled inside by the boat too soon. Nate moves his mass better than anyone else....that is a big part of why he is so good. When he leads with his head on 1,3,5, that indicates that he is actively leading with his mass through the apex of those turns. Which is why he keeps his speed up, and the load on the rope relatively light.

 

p.s. - Lowering your hips (or COM) does NOT WORK!!! Its one of the biggest misconceptions in skiing. All it does is move your COM back. Moving back makes you slow, heavy on the rope and pissed at your boat driver for absolutely no reason at all. Don't do it! It will ruin your lower back and thats about it. Attempting to get hips as square to boat as possible, and lowering your COM are two completely independent moves. 1 works. 1 doesn't

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown at what point do you think should hips and shoulders should be pointed out bound?

[MarcusBrown]

@Horton

 

Hips (and therefore shoulders) should attempt to stay facing the boat all the way until the point at which the skiers outside hand comes off the handle for the reach.

 

Hips and shoulders should never be twisted outbound before the outside hand comes off.....

[Wish]

@MarcusBrown Why does it sound like that will just make me narrow?? I see Nate doing this but if I try odds are narrow will happen and that's my prob in the first place. What would stop that.? I see your a New Baller..... Welcome ;-) (sarcasm)

[estrom]

@MarcusBrown, just so I understand it, you're facing the boat until you release with the outside hand. For timing purposes, do you then begin to counter rotate at the same time (as you begin the reach)?

[MarcusBrown]

@Wish it is counterintuitive at first glance. But it really does make a lot of sense when you break it down...and its probably the simplest concept to understand. Just dont' know if I'd do it justice by explaining it all here...maybe soon I'll have enough time. Or maybe I'll put together a MarcusBrown.TV episode on the topic.

 

@estrom you are correct. The nice thing about it, if executed properly, the counter rotation happens automatically as a result of the load on the trailing (reaching arm). The better a skier learns to keep a certain amount of tension on the line all the way out to apex....the load on the reaching arm will tend to 'un-wind' you as the rest of the body swings out away from that connection point. i.e. counter rotation shouldn't be an active 'move'...but rather a result of setting up the pre-turn properly.

[Than_Bogan]

Fwiw, what Marcus is saying exactly what Jamie told me to do (shoulders/hips facing boat until ready to release), and I gotta say I thought he had lost it. But when I make myself do it, I run more buoys with less effort!

 

To me, this is kind of a very-short-line concept, that becomes important when you're spending an awful lot of time going mostly up-course rather than cross-course, due to the geometry of very-short-lines. Basically, you have to keep resisting, but you can't be "pulling" in the conventional sense because you're not travelling anywhere close to perpendicular to the boat path after you cross the centerline. But this facing thing gives the same benefits that a longer pull did back when learning longer line lengths.

 

Maybe it can be applied on longer lines as well, but it doesn't mean as much because the angle of your body to the boat doesn't change much while in that position if the rope is long.

 

This one hard concept to explain. Jamie talked to me for a good 2 hours and kept having to stop me from talking so that I would erase my previous notions and listen. It didn't completely work, but I started to grasp a little tiny bit of it.

[Wish]

@MarcusBrown any plans to come to FL to do some clinics?

[Horton]

Back on the original topic of this thread. I skied with a duct tape cast tonight because my front ankle is tender from a crash last week. With a stiff front ankle my on side turns were totally school bus. No angle and slow. In a whim I tried the whole handle down thing and darn if it did not bring me forward and clean up my on side turns. I was not skiing very aggressive and this is not like some magic technique but it helped

 

There is something to this...

[Horton]

@MarcusBrown

I would be very cool if you would expound on this. I think we all know that we need to be in a natural and open position. It is the “extra open” that I do not really understand the benefits of.

 

I am under the impression that as I leave the wake heading out I want load on my away shoulder and my hips and chest should resist being rotated to the pylon.

 

If I understand you correctly, my whole approach is out of step.

 

As I side note: I also think that at 36 you can release with your away hand sooner but that your position is more critical up to that point. At 34 it seems like we need to hold the handle farther out to get the same width but that should and hip position is less critical.

 

[Chef23]

I am not sure I can think about this and not fall over. Should the hips and shoulders be facing the boat or face down course as you ride out to the buoy?

[A_B]

As you ride out to buoy, try transferring some load to the traiing hand on handle. Left hand going to one ball. This keeps you more square to the boat, which gives you maximum width before you counter into the turn. If you are closed, the boat will pull you up and narrower into the ball.

 

There is a video on the web somewhere with someone sitting in a chair holding onto a ski handle, and it is pretty good at showing that you shouldn't keep pressure on your lead shoulder in a down position, or you can't swing out as wide.

 

I watch a lot of ski video, and there are closed skiers and open skiers, both skiing lines much shorter than the average Joe, so I try to pickup things that help and stop things that hurt (physically too!).

 

My test on transferring weight/load to my trailing hand going into one ball yielded good results, the problem is that it is not in my brain-dead mode yet, so I have to think about it every time. If I have a crappy turn somwhere, then I throw everything out the window and ski like I have been for 30 years, and just try to make the next ball.

 

I will say that blending the open to the boat onside and slightly closed on my offside seems to work best for me, but when I am scrambling, I revert to closed. I probably need to spend a lot more time out of the course and re-boot my brain cells. I don't ski that much any more, so when I do, its hard to not ski buoys!

[Texas6]

I have tried this over and over. Theoretically speaking, it has always made perfect sense to me. Attach a rope to a tree and practice the difference. when you open your shoulders up to the tree (boat), you can instantly feel how this practice would add speed and outbound direction to any shortline skier. But in practice, opening up my shoulders automatically rotates my hips such that it reduces my angle toward the buoy. In other words, rotating my shoulders and hips rotates my ski toward the buoy and prevents my outbound direction. This may be a flexibility issue in my part, but at 5'11" tall and 170, flexibility doesn't feel like an issue to me, but the movement does for some reason. I want to believe it Marcus, but really need you to help us better understand it.

[Wish]

I'm with @Texas6. I gave this a go tonight on some 35s with the mind set that there would be no way my hips would travel outbound while my shoulders were open (seemingly inbound) to the boat. But it did work to some degree. I have a tendency/habit (off side) of holding the handle into the vest off the second wake with so much outside arm pressure that I start arcing back the other direction to early and end up having to do a split radios turn just about every time. In forcing.. and I mean forcing myself to open up to the boat (assuming a crash was inevitable) the split radios turn disappeared. I stayed on a single slightly wider turn. For me the odd part was feeling the pressure of the line in both arms before I let go (not just trailing) and it felt very much like me elbows were a mile away from my vest before it was time to let go. As for the automatic contour rotation, it did not really feel like it happened but I was in Ok position at the end of the turn. Not saying it didnt happen, but usually I'm forcing counter to happen. The driver mentioned he felt me pull longer to the buoy but it did not feel like a great deal of load. But it did feel, for a split second, that the boat was gonna dump me to the inside pulling on both arms facing the boat, but right at that moment was when I would normally let go with the outside arm and whooop finished the turn and hooked up well. Did not think that was gonna happen at all. This will be a very very difficult challenge to rewire my brain to do this and think it will turn out well. I left my onside completely alone. Could only handle attempting this 3 times in a pass.

[jayski]

@Texas6 @Wish

As mentioned in previous discussions it's about riding the rope to it's full extent or longest widest path, after center line focus on your direction being to the shore, not the buoy...edge change, outbound direction, tight line and counter all fall into place.

[Wish]

@jayski or in my case just fall. I'll get it eventually. Old habits die hard. I do like the idea of focusing on my ski directions being to the shore. Would you say you focus on that until you let go with the outside arm or does that thought stop at the edge change?

[MarcusBrown]

@Texas6 and others, you are exactly correct: hips and shoulders towards the boat through the initial outbound move WILL in fact limit your skis outbound direction,...at least initially. And that is precisely what you want.

 

Who has never edge changed too quickly....or loaded too hard and been popped to the inside like a puppet through the transition?? I know I have...and I still do it. About 6 times per pass. So I know we've all done it.....and it feels like crap.

 

Why?

 

Because the quicker the edge change....the more we depend on our ski for our pre-turn and buoy approach. More simply put, the quicker the edge change, the less line tension we take into the buoy, and the less we ride the end of the handle outbound: result --> Saggy rope = shallower pre-turn = a whole mess of other problems that are "common".

 

So, limiting the amount of "outbound" direction the ski takes through the transition is something that is not only a necessity for better and more efficient skiing...but its something that virtually every slalom skier needs to work on.

 

Opening the core (think hips, & shoulders will follow: remember to never try to twist the spine) to the boat into the wakes generates the most efficient, low load speed possible. Speed creates the illusion of angle into the wakes.

 

Continuing to open the core as you move through the transition is the most efficient way to trick the skier into achieving maximum outbound direction...by slowing the transition of the ski from inside edge to out....and cleaning up the reaching phase from 2 hands to 1.

 

p.s. - everyones different. Different preferences, tastes, styles, habits, natural tendencies, base stances, etc.... But everyone, EVERYONE, has to follow the same physical laws. No escape.

 

Just because I preach open hips/core, and counter rotation during the carves, doesn't mean there isn't another way to do it. More than anything else, folks need to realize that opening and counter rotating is theoretically the most efficient way (based on human anatomy) to get your body's COM moving in the right directions & at the right times to get the most out of the skiers energy input. However, there are no two styles the same. If you look to a guy like Mapple, who is still running 41' off, and see him closed off during the acceleration phase, and not super counter rotated at apex....the initial response is "he's doing something completely different." But that's the wrong response. At the fundamental level, he still has to deal with the loads from the boat, and still moves his COM to the right places at the right times. He just does it differently. But he's basically a God because he can do it a way most mortal skiers cannot.

 

*Understanding why great skiers ski the way they do, at the basic level, is more valuable than trying to emulate them.