Is your Stargazer going wonky (technical term)!!!!

[colo_skier]

Stargazer with z-box speed control installed since early this year. I have a DBW 07 response lxi with a hammerhead engine that I think was running perfectly through the course without issues for a few months after installation. I then put on a fresh air exhaust system and for some reason since then for the last 2 months I am now fighting the boat surging in the course. Or maybe I am now more aware of it. I was originally able to "cure" it by adjusting the 1 to 3 ball timing charts for each of the skier weights. I had to significantly change the numbers in order to stop the boat from running away the moment it passed the 2 ball buoys. nothing help's your sking confidence like having the handle yanked out of your hand when you release for the 2 ball (LFF skier). The course is mapped into the system however even when used in classic mode with magnets at 1 and 3 and 6 it did the same thing. Also when running in z-box mode it was the same. When I contacted PP they said to re-calibrate everything, which I did and then had to re-adjust the 1 to 3 ball timings for each of the weights again. it seemed to work for a while. However today when running at 32 the boat would enter the course at 35 then throttle back to 30 and eventually settle at 32 (same driver as always). The buoy timing appears to reflect these speed changes. Please note that I don't think I had any of these type of issues prior to the fresh air exhaust being put on but cannot be sure. Also several times the PP has failed to engage. Also something I have not had before.

 

I found these instructions on auto setting the CR/CS points (I copied the text from @MAC in z-box 1st report thread).

 

CR/CS: MENU & UP key, highlight CTRL Settings & press UP, highlight AUTO CR/CS Set, press UP key, accelerate the boat over 3500 rpms, the system will engage and settle back to ~3000 rpms and a message will show the CR/CS has been corrected.

 

When I tried to do this once I exceeded the 3500 and the pp took over it would say the CR/CS had been corrected but never settled back down to 3000 rpms. The lake is a mile long so I ran out of lake before I saw any reduction in rpm. The original CR/CS setting was 1910 and was updated to 2020 after that. (??????)

 

Also note that without a skier the boat behaves itself perfectly with no surging and perfect times.

 

I know none of this makes any sense but am posting just to see if anybody else is seeing this type of operation from their PP system.

 

Needless to say it's a little hard to ski the course with these type of speed changes.

[jackski]

Take the system off and see if all is back to normal. I've built race motors for 38 years and I know that when you make such a radical change to the exhaust the rest of the motor managment systems require recalibartion for the type of smooth response we require or skiing.

[colo_skier]

@jackski. Good suggestion. I will try that. However I think I will try putting the old pp classic module in first and see if the boat responds the same. If the exhaust is truly the issue then that's going to be a real let down for the quite skiing.

[Razorskier1]

@colo_skier I've never had much luck with the auto set CRS. My boat is an 05 MC and so the CRS default level is quite different. That said, I had the CRS set well below factory (manually changed it) and it was fine for 34 and 36mph, but surged like crazy at lower speeds. I manually increased it each time through the course with a 30mph skier until it stopped. Order of magnitude I went from 1550 to 1640 on the CRS. Now it feels great at all speeds. Talked to Mark at PP. He was great.

[colo_skier]

@Razorskier1, Interesting after I did the auto CRS (even though it never came back down to the 3000 rpm) the 34MPH was significantly better and the surging went away. When we switched to the 32 MPH it didn't seem to have any effect upon it. Maybe I need to increase it even more? I will try that this weekend before I change anything out. According to the documentation this value is the rpm at which perfect pass requests to take over the speed control from the ECM. Can't think of any reason that getting control at a higher rpm would stop the surging at lower speed's though versus higher speeds. Looks like you increased yours 6% and it fixed things. I will try the same and see what happens. Mine auto cal'd up 6% from 1910 to 2020 which is oddly coincidental.

[Waternut]

I know this would take some setting back up but what about just resetting PP? I was having issues with my stargazer going "wonky" on me earlier this year. The boat was going absolutely haywire in just a straight line in open water...dropping between 24 and rocketing up to 34 when I had it set at 28 or 30. PP told me to try a bunch of different stuff like linkage checks, solid wire connections, etc. and finally said just reset it back to factory defaults and set it all back up again because occasionally the computer can get corrupted.

[Oldutskier]

I have an 2004 mechanical throttle mastercraft 197. I had very inconsistent times with z box until I ran the rpm test and realized that I had a dirty signal from my tach and it was causing the rpms to bounce. I inverted the rpm signal by changing a setting and now it works like a charm. Try the rpm test in the manual. Obviously, changing the exhaust should not be related to this, but perhaps the rpm was inadvertently inverted or the change you made to the engine has exacerbated a problem that was present before the exhaust upgrade.

[colo_skier]

@jfw432 I have already been through the whole reset and set it all back up routine and it may have worked for a few weeks. Being an engineer working with embedded micro's I would say it appears the software has lost its marbles. I appreciate everybody's input on this and I will try to resolve whatever the issue is this weekend. It really appears to be somehow related to the reaction of PP to the loading by the skier. Since I get perfect times without a skier I am wondering if I may need to quicken PP response to load being applied. Maybe the "normal" setting was fine with the exhaust being open but not enough with the slightly more restrictive FAE and the rpm range that the slower speeds use. Hence by the time it figures out were it is in the course it has to over rev to get back on time because it did not react hard enough or long enough at each load time. If I find an answer that works I will post my findings.

[colo_skier]

Quick update. The boat ran perfectly this weekend in all zbox modes and the SG mode both at 34 and 36 mph. I think we will have to put this one down to pilot error. BTW I tried the auto cal and the adding a little more to the CR time and it really messed everything up. I went back to the original 1910 setting. If anybody is interested I will post the new Feather, light, normal and XL tables that I currently have set. I need an excuse to go and ski. Just another aside when I changed from C3 to A1 on the z-box it felt like I was using a new 60 strand rope versus an old 80 strand. Can you say bungee like.

[tru-jack]

colo, I have same boat but monsoon and am on fence re: z box, if you could send settings that would be appreciated and useful for when / if i upgrade. thanks. pm is perfect.

[colo_skier]

@tru-jack will do. BTW I went from classic pp straight to Stargazer with zbox so most of my issues have been SG related versus the z-box. IMHO the z-box does exactly what it's supposed to do.

[DkLkSkr]

I would be interested in the settings too. Thanks! pm is fine.

[usaski1]

Only real issue I've had with my z-box is occasional non-engage. I hear that If I get my stargazer a dedicated ground and / or power that would help. This non-engage thing is related to the cr/cs settings.

[colo_skier]

@usaski1, From this last weekend I found that if I set the CR/CS (one number for my version) at 2200 or above (default is 1910) The system would not engage 2 out of the 3 times we tried it when there was a skier. Without a skier it engaged every time. Once set back at 1910 it engages all the time. We are skiing 32 and 34 MPH. I know for you past posts that you are skiing at a lower speed. Based on that I would say try taking 100 or 200 out of the CR/CS numbers and see if it helps with the non-engagement before trying dedicated power and ground. From what I have read this is the rpm at which PP asks and is subsequently granted control of the ECM for DBW boats (this is the initial beep you hear). For my boat I need at least 2 MPH prior to the set point for PP to engage versus the suggested 0.5 MPH.

[colo_skier]

Here's the table I adjusted for my SG (2012 software and z-box, but in all modes of operation, PP classic, z-box, SG with timing magnets or course mapped) to stop the boat racing away from B2 to B3.

orig B1 B3 B4 to exit

Feather 08 50 35

Light 08 50 35

Light 36.0 10 64 23

Normal 34,2 & below 08 50 31

Normal 36 10 64 23

Xtra large 08 64 35

 

new B1 B3 B4 to exit

Feather nobody here skis this

Light 15 32 35

Light 36.0 nobody here skis this

Normal 34,2 & below 15 30 31

Normal 36 nobody here skis this behind my boat

Xtra large 15 40 35

I had to work these with a skier behind since they seem to have no affect upon the no skier timing runs. It should be noted that the times with a skier behind did not change much but the pull between 2 and 3 was significantly smoother. ie In 32 mph didn't speed up to 35 and back down to 30 between the 2 and 3. Also the other SG boats out here do not have the new skier weight options so always have the correct skier weight in them so I cannot comment on any other boat. Sorry the table is hard to read I couln't figure out how to make it easier to see.

[Razorskier1]

@colo_skier One thing I've discovered is that for the lower speeds there is a throttle trick, whereas for 34 and 36mph you just push the throttle down and forget it. Example. To run 30mph the tach is around 3000 rpms (give or take). If I accelerate relatively quickly to 3500 rpms and then hold it at 3500, it locks in perfect -- no surging. If, however, the rpms are still rising when it beeps, it will quickly drop from 37-3800 to 2700, then back to mid-3000, then back below, etc. So there is some art to it even with DBW when the speeds are lower. That being said, in my particular application the higher CRS seemed to help.

[colo_skier]

@Razorskier1 we have also noticed and adjust for the throttle exactly as you mentioned. There really seems to be an art to getting SG to not surge and it has to be applied prior to the beep when SG takes over since moving the throttle after that is just exercise for your hand. Interesting that you observe the same that we see. We have a long set-up end and a short set-up end. We seem to have more issues with the long set-up end because we are purposely taking longer to get to speed (easier on the skier) than the short end were we have to get to speed quickly. Changing to the new numbers in the tables above seemed to eliminate any of the surging regardless of the throttle operation. Please note that the problem I was addressing was the surging from 2 ball to 3 ball. It was not really a settling at the correct speed. The settling we have always considered a driver throttle application issue that the SG boats here at our lake all have. I am the only one with the newer feather, light, normal ,XL classification skier weight software, and am the only one that has this surging at 2 ball issue. After thinking about it I do not think it is related to the different exhaust. I think it became more noticeable because more people are driving or skiing my boat. I appreciate everyone that has posted on this and hopefully it may help anybody that is having SG issues.