Tip Raise

[TUP]

What would help keep my tip down after completing my turn? A friend took some pictures, and I was surprised at how much my tip was coming up at the end of the turn. I have attached the photos and some video.

Skiing on a 2011 Strada

28 1/2 “Front Binding

.765 DFT

6.850 Length

2.495 Depth

 

 

http://s829.photobucket.com/albums/zz214/T-UP/Sept%20skiing/

 

[Rich]

To me it looks like you get a little more tip rise on the off side. You could add length to the blade. However it appears that you never get in a stacked position when there is a load on you.

I believe this is about core strength. I would work on getting stronger core muscles with plyo drills, box jumps and other athletic movements,and yoga movements like these. Try adding Bikram Yoga to your offseason this year. Go 4-5 times per week. This will help in standing over your feet on your ski. Good Luck!

[Chef23]

@TUP that is some good skiing I am not sure I am worthy to comment. You do look like you ride the tail a little bit coming through the wakes and into the turn which could lead to the tip rise coming out of the turn. Being a little more stacked might help.

 

The other thing I have issues with at the shorter line lengths is being impatient while waiting for the boat to pick me up after the turn. Sometimes at the shorter lengths you just need to wait and I have a tendency to step on the tail which obviously causes tip rise.

[Texas6]

@Tup, I have to agree that it appears you are too far back on that ski in general. Its noticeable as you cross the wakes and the tip rise in the turns is a result of the same issue. Opening up to the boat a bit at the conclusion of the turn and through the wakes may help center you a bit better over your bindings. This isnt a theoretical west coast style plug, but more of a trick to encourage your center of mass to move out over your bindings a bit. Moving them forward a tiny bit may also help keep the tip down

[markchilcutt]

@tup great skiing man!! You seem very patient and calm at the shorter line lenght. wish i had your patients at 35! Not sure i would change any ski settings but rather work on what @texas6 mentioned above. Watch some vid of the top pros and slow it down freeze frame it etc then look at your body position and compare the two. you should see the diff and have something to work on behind the boat. Great skiing keep it rollin!!

[ForrestGump]

What size Strada is that? That's a LOT of ski out of the water everywhere.

[SkiJay]

I don't think your fin is the prime cause of your high tip. " You just seem to be really good at skiing on the back of your ski, and fortunately, Radar has it's flat section further back on the ski than any other ski on the market, so it works.

 

It does look like your bindings might be mounted too far back. 28.5" is in the park for a 65" or 66" ski (as measured from the stitching above the sole), but your ski looks bigger than this. It's also possible that your slighly shallow fin setting is causing some of the tip rise at the finish of the turn, but it's not crazy shallow. Mostly, you just seem to be heavy on the tail of your ski everywhere, in the glide, in the turns, and while cutting too ... and you really are good at it.

[Texas6]

Well said @SkiJay! @Tup, I should have mentioned you are skiing well at a very high level prior to offering any critique here. The critique is exactly that: being critical. Nice skiing!

[gregy]

I'm on a 2011 Strada. Not sure what your setting are. I emailed Matt Rini and told him where I was at with my skiing, ski size, weight etc. He gave me a his recommendation and I've haven't changed from what he gave me and I immediately started skiing better. My ski partner went back to stock settings on his strada and is looking better as well. @ToddL was watching him and thought that he was using the ski settings as a crutch to compensate for poor form. The stock setting are now forcing him to use better body positioning.

 

Oh yea, @tup nice skiing, your a few minor adjustments away from really killing it. I think that's been covered above, good luck.

[A_B]

@TUP, how are you measuring DFT, head of calipers? I believe all Radar dft numbers are published using the Rossi method, with a slot caliper. This gives you about .030 longer of a measurement, so stock .770 is really .740 with head of regular caliper. Just sayin...

I had the same problem with my Strada. Moved the fin back and now it comes around out in front of me much better.....

[Than_Bogan]

Interesting to watch! I personally have never seen anyone ski that well (or even close) with so much ski out of the water. As ShaneH noted, there's a lot of ski out of the water all the time -- not just tip rise.

 

In all honesty, I'd be a little scared to "fix" that. It just seems to be part of your style. I don't really see any big negative consequences associated with it for you. I guess maybe a slight delay at the finish, but I've seen (and done!) much worse.

 

But it's unusual enough that it's probably worth experimenting with bindings further forward. Maybe there's some magic there where you could destroy -38 and threaten -39?? (And then another person leaves me in the dust...)

 

Also, is that ski the right size? Because of seeing so much ski, it looks way too big. Probably an illusion, though.

[ToddL]

@tup - In every glide before the gates, we can see daylight under the front binding... Water should be breaking at your front toes, not behind your front heal.

 

Recommendation - we spend about 5-10 seconds from deep water to first motion to pull out for the gates. At the end of the pass, we spend about the same skiing behind the boat before setting down. If you have a turn island, you spend about 5-10 second there. All of this time you have nothing really to do but ride the ski. So, this is the perfect time to ride it perfectly. Really think about hips locked forward, a little more front ankle bend, and shifting your weight more to the front foot. Think about forcing the water to break under or just in front of your front foot toes. Also think about standing on the balls of your feet, not the heals. If possible (strada bindings), even lift your heals off the footbeds. Every second you are not chasing buoys, you can spend it thinking about weight distribution on the ski.

 

 

You didn't mention what length Strada (67?)

Based upon your settings noted above, your front boot need to move forward a bit.

 

Here are some recommended settings that I captured from past postings:

SkiSize Front Boot Fin Length Fin Depth Fin DFT Wing Strada

Rini

66 28 5/8 6.845-6.850 2.505 0.75 9

67 29 1/2 6.850-6.855 2.505 0.75-0.755 9

Rossi

66 28 3/4 2.495 6.84 0.75 9

67 29 1/2 2.495 6.84 0.77 9

[TUP]

Thanks for the input!

 

Ski is a 66” I’m about 160 lb.’s

I’m measuring DFT with the head of the calipers

Binding placement is measured from the top stitch, I’m ¼" back from factory of 28 ¾”

 

[6balls]

@TUP it appears you would be a killer with more ski in the water. I'm not quite sure how you get cross course the way you do at present other than your light body weight. Heavier skiers would not advance with that much ski in the air. Agree with @than that if you get more ski in the water you will make the purple pay with regularity...and that's cool. Good luck!

[The_MS]

Move the DFT to .752

I rode my 66 strada there with 2.503 on the depth. Length looks good.

[TUP]

MS, I’m using the head of the calipers for my DFT measurement. Is your .752 with a slot calipers are head of calipers? As AB mentioned, Radar does measure DFT with slot calipers. Subtract .30 from my measurement?

 

I'm going to move my bindings to 28 3/4" with a real focus on weight transfer forward.

[ForrestGump]

Rossi has told me before that he's using the head of the caliper, not with a slot caliper. Now that was in 2010, so he might have changed. But the published Rossi numbers haven't changed since that time.

[A_B]

If you watch Rossi's video on how to setup a Strada, he uses a slot caliper and is shooting for .767 or thereabouts. That means .737 or .740 with head. I have a 69.5 Strada and tried for too long to run the dft as advertised, and I was just chasing my tail. Watched the video and the light bulb went off when I saw him using slot caliper. Used the Goode website which lists both measures, and there is a .030 difference on their website, so I moved the fin back and viola, major improvement. I had moved it back on my own a few times, liked it, then kept coming back to stock to see if it was me or the ski... (should never question yourself). But its been that kind of a year. Right now, I am feeling much better about the ski and me and harmony...

[TUP]

Shane,

This is where i got slot caliper from

 

http://slalomguru.com/videos.php

 

[JC McCavit]

Moved to new post.

[ForrestGump]

Well, I was wrong. But like I said, that was a few years ago.

[Rich]

You are a good skier, and do many things right, however you have asked for help on getting to the next level. here is some additional feedback.

Your 1st movement appears to be back. When you turn in for the gate you let your hip fall back, this creates a "windshield" wiper turn. Consistently you do 2 things that you can improve on.

 

fall back.

 

don't stay on handle long enough (get twisted toawrd boat)

 

To correct, stay on the handle longer and stand up more as you approach the apex with your hips up on the gate lean out. Counter more with 2 hands on the handle before you relase hand for turn in. Once your 2nd hand gets back on the handle Feel the pressure on your leading arm, point your knees in the direction you would like to go, allow your ankle and knees to bend as you allow the force to build in the leading arm. Keep you hips up, knees bent. don't allow you hips to fall back. Feel the load in the lead arm all the way to 1 ball. Stay on the handle longer as you approach 1 ball. As you move out from the center line, off the 2nd wake the pull from the boat will try to twist you towards it, resist this (this is where you really resist and counter) stay on the handle untill the line and handle go slightly behind you. This will look like your right arm is straight and your inside left arm will be bent, this will allow you to come up over your ski more. The line should be pulled slightly from you, you don't reach, it will be pulled from you if done correctly (If you loaded to hard to early at the turn in it becomes harder to feel the line being pulled away). You will be more stacked or aligned over your front foot if this is done correctly. As the line is pulled away the ski will swing out around the ball. The ski will then come between you and the boat as your 2nd hand comes back on the handle. Allow the load to transition to the lead arm as you move forward toward the 2 ball. (offside for you) repeat and resist.

[skiboyny]

You seem in the habit of keeping your front leg straight. That would fix the attitude of the ski.

[The_MS]

@TUP I use a regular caliper from Goode not the slot. Hold the ski on its tip, press the head against the ski with your thumb and bring it down.

[TUP]

Thanks MS

[Rich]

I find it interesting no one has talked about what really causes tip rise in the 1st place. (hint, it isn't about minor adjustments to the fin blade) It happens because the skier loses outbound direction, travels in the direction of the boat and loses speed. It may feel like when this happens the skier is going fast, however the distance traveled becomes less if you lose outbound direction. When you travel in the direction of the boat instead of outbound the ski actually turns to sharp causing tip rise. The turn should look like a big half circle radius. If you lose the radius in front of the ball, you will get tip rise at the completion of the turn. The turn starts at the white water and ends at the white water. @Toddl that is a good point, practice standing on the ski outside of the course in a stacked position, ankles bent forward, knees bent forward so you can achieve that postioning in the course. The toughest work begins at the white water in the preturn. Most skiers start to relax here. They have "pulled" to hard through the wake, relax in the preturn, lose outbound direction and "hook" the turn. It should be resist through the wake, keeping the ski on edge, resist more off the 2nd wake and rise up with both hands on the handle, feel the momentum of the boat try to rotate you toward it and resist this with the leading arm through your core.

[Than_Bogan]

This is great stuff, @Rich. I am trying to comprehend a lot of these kind of details right now to change -38 from a pass I run a couple of times a season to hopefully one I run a couple of times a week.

 

Doing the right stuff from the whitewash out seems to be the hardest for me, and I sense that I'm not alone. I think this is the fundamental reason that so many of us get stuck at -38: you really have to get that phase right, which was much less important (or almost not even required) at the previous line lengths.

 

If I ever get to writing up an article about deep shortline techniques, I may have to include this sentence verbatim (with attribution of course!): It should be resist through the wake, keeping the ski on edge, resist more off the 2nd wake and rise up with both hands on the handle, feel the momentum of the boat try to rotate you toward it and resist this with the leading arm through your core.

[Rich]

Thanks Than, I'm glad my writing has worked for you. Believe me as I have said, I really feel it 1st then I put it into words. I have been very fortunate to have skied with some of the best skiers in the world over the last 40 years. It has also taken me a longtime to fiqure out what short line slalom is really all about. At 5'7" it is a challenge. I will share with you that 38 is not that difficult when done correctly, impossible if you do to much in the wrong places. I do know that at 38 it is a combination of great technique, a great ski, good boat driving, and great fitness. I can run 35 on any ski, behind any boat driver within reason, in bad conditions. 38 is the dividing line where you actually go faster. 15 through 35 are almost the same as speed generated is concerned. I believe that you go 3-4 mph faster at 38.

[Rich]

Rich Storelee

 

[JC McCavit]

@Rich - Can you take a look a my video? Post = "How To Fix Riding The Tail On My Onside" Just want to confirm I have the same problem you describe above. Thanks

 

 

[Skoot1123]

@Rich - Excellent commentary. I utilized what you said and had a killer set last night even though I hadn't skied in 5 nights. Even upped my speed to a true 34.2 mph. What really rang true was feeling how the boat tries to turn your body out of position after the second wake. If you can resist that, even for just a "second" then the line is nice and tight all the way through the turn. Thanks!!

[Deanoski]

66 strada should have the front boot at 28 3/4- 29.00 move your boots forward.

 

Deano

[MrBrown]

I think that OB is just jealous bc you ski better than he does!!! :-)

 

Here's Harald who just got eigth in the big dawg finals under the lights. Some skiers just ride the tail more than others.

 

 

 

 

 

[matthewbrown]

@toddL that is quite possibly the best tip anyone has ever given on this forum---use your time from deep water to the course to actively engage your glutes into a nice stacked/balanced postion and then to take it another step further, see how long you can stay in this position in the course through the cuts and turns

[ToddL]

@matthewbrown - Thanks!

[Rich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMeWeoIVNOI&feature=g-vrec

[SkiJay]

Interesting thread. @Tup, with the help of @skiing2heaven's video posts, has established that some very good skiers ski very well on the tail of their skis. So does Chris Rossi. Terry Winter skis very well using 95% of the whole length of his ski.

 

As hard as we all try to force ourselves to ski "correctly," it turns out there is more than one way to skin this cat, and that is why there are so many skis and adjustable fins. We have choices. We can set it to factory and struggle to adjust our technique to match the factory skiers' techniques, or we can adjust our fins to help us get as much performance as is possible out of our individual quirky techniques. Quirky is kind of interesting, especially if it still gets the job done.

[MrBrown]

I don't think that @Tup style looks anything like Win Decrees, although Win is a great skier (and a super nice guy!). That would be like suggesting that Chris Parrish should ski like Terry Winter.

 

Here's a Beautiful Gal that rides further back on her ski also! (skiing starts at 1:46 in the video)

 

 

 

Here's another skier who skis the "stay back style" also.............

 

 

 

And who could forget this classic Rossi video......(what's he doing on his pullout???......

 

Here's April......does she ever use the front of her ski?!?!?).....Watch her offside reach!!!.....

 

 

:-)

[GaryWilkinson]

Tremendous thread. I learned that

1) even when ahead, its better to keep your edge and resist through the 2nd wake

2) stay on edge with the handle elbow and hip connected.

3) when doing the above, (continuation of edging through the 2nd wake), you will retain your speed and be able to stand tall on the ski setting a stacked position and essentially not feel the need to "hook" the ball and "drive the hips forward" to try and preserve the turn. Thus producing the dreaded wheelie!

 

So again patience, and confidence in a well positioned turn is a direct result of what you do in the white water.

 

Great thread.

[Razorskier1]

@Rich -- great description of the dreaded "hook turn". Inevitably happens on the heel side turn, and now that you describe it I know just what you are saying. For reasons that don't seem clear to me, on my toe side (1/3/5) I run a nice arc from whitewash to whitewash and it feels awesome and it is consistent every time. Going to 2/4, however, I find that sometimes I come up at the right place, then ride flat and at the ball instead of swinging the ski out, and then have no choice but to overturn the ski. Tips on breaking that habit welcome.

[SkiJay]

You'll probably find your answer to fixing 2/4 back at 1/3 @Razorskier1. Maybe the 1/3 turn is too sweeping and leaves you having to pull long. Maybe the 1/3 turn is perfect but you just have a habit of pulling a bit long toward 2/4. It's very likely a late edge change causing you to go narrow at 2/4, but what is causing the late edge change?

[thager]

@ razorskier 1 Happens to me a lot. Usually means over turn at 1 ball followed by a lack of counter rotation and not keeping the handle in my pocket with elbows locked on the vest long enough (too early handle release). Usually I'm early, narrow and flat, going straight at 2 ball unable to cast out. When I tone down the 1 ball turn it goes away and I am able to do what I am supposed to do. Less can be more.

[Rich]

as you go into the offside it is more important to resist and get your hip over your front foot. On the onside you are naturally positioned with the hip over the front foot. Think about that.

[matthewbrown]

@TUP please listen and apply what @ToddL and @Rich have said in this thread. What is important in skiing is the relationship of your hips and center of mass to your ski, especially in the acceleration phase.

A great video to watch is the one that @skiing2heaven posted of Harold running 4@41. Notice how centered he is on the ski through the wakes into 1 ball. He loses that centeredness a bit as he goes through the course which eventually catches up to him. Also, look at the Rossi and April videos that @skiing2heaven was kind enough to post, and see how both skiers have their hips in alignment and forward on the ski in the acceleration phase--Rossi at the 53 second mark and April at the 1:11 mark.

Don't be fooled by tail turns, these are world class skiers and when they do rock back on their skis they are able to quickly get their center of mass back over the ski and keep moving. @TUP even if you make mistakes and are turning on the tail of the ski, try to get your hips back over your knees and feet in the acceleration phase and you'll be fine.

@skijay some very good skiers do ski on the back of their skis, but only some of the time...most of these skiers are over their ski more in a pass then they are on the back of it. Imagine how good someone could be if they stay centered, right on top of the ski from deep water start to deep water drop....hmm...here we go again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6kqh0kY6V4

 

[Rich]

I really don't believe style has alot to do with performance. Its all about what is efficent. The goal or my goal is to get around as many balls as possible on as short of a line as possible. @Matt is right on the mark with making sure you are in a stacked position. That is what is missing in what TUP is doing. TUP looks like a very athletic guy. Even in his dry suit I could see the guy has muscle. My 1st suggestion was to work on core strength. When I ski I used to get sore in my back, that was before I learned how to engage my core. I learned in the offseason in my garage (go figure) how to engage my core. I stood in front of a mirror and watched and felt how my core could engage. I also trained with pilates, plyos ect... and stopped weight training as my big muscles were over developed and my stabilization muscles were under developed. After that offseason I learned how to engage my core and stay stacked over my ski. From years of doing it incorrectly I still will FALL BACK as in hips when in trouble or get on the back foot when late.

I now get sore in my obliques and abs after I ski, so I know I'm doing something right. I know I need to engage my glutes more as Matt talked about. Glutes are huge muscles and can assist us greatly in staying stacked. @toddl I agree with learning outside the course and when most skiers relax from the moment they get up to the course then engage only in the course under BIG loads, then relax again as soon as they exit. I have always coached to stay in a stacked, engaged position outside the course, its easier when there are no loads. I always make my lean out for the shortening of the line an active engagement of my entire body, and I try to "feel" the line out as I move away from the boat, as the boat is moving away and slowing down it can be quite a trick to keep the line tight and my body engaged. Even as I drop down in the water I like to feel the pressure in my outside arm/shoulder as I lower into the water staying completely connected to the line just as if I was going around a ball. My point is never relax, always look for opportunities to feel connected to the boat/line. I would be interested to see how many of you stay activly engaged outside the course. How many realized that they need to stay very engaged off the 2nd wake and not relax just because its a "preturn" All the video posted in this thread show one very common thing. All the skiers are stacked/ hips up. The skiers that ski back still keep the core completly engaged/ hips up though they ski a bit more on the back foot than the front foot. So it appears that the important thing is engaement of the core/hips up / Handle close to the body / resist the boat off the 2nd wake as it tries to rotate your body towards it (counter rotation) Start the turn at the white water and finish at the white water. Be as efficient as possible doing all of this.

[jipster43]

Another awesome thread! Thanks for all the valuable information!

[MrBrown]

Well said @Rich!!!

 

@Rich wrote "All the video posted in this thread show one very common thing. All the skiers are stacked/ hips up. The skiers that ski back still keep the core completly engaged/ hips up though they ski a bit more on the back foot than the front foot. So it appears that the important thing is engaement of the core/hips up / Handle close to the body / resist the boat off the 2nd wake as it tries to rotate your body towards it (counter rotation) Start the turn at the white water and finish at the white water. Be as efficient as possible doing all of this."

 

Since your center of mass/center of gravity is located just below your belly button,...these skiers are also leading well with their center of mass/center of gravity by having their...

 

 

- hips up/hips connected to the handle/handle in the pocket/low anchor point/power triangle

-elbows to the vest

-chest out

-arms Totally straight

-shoulders back

-standing tall

 

With this group of skiers,..the further up and forward that they have their hips, the greater that their upper body can lean away. This hips forward and upper body lean away is what is causing their weight to be naturally displaced slightly more on their back foot. They ARE NOT PRESSING DOWN ON THEIR BACK FOOT.

 

@Rich you are very accurate in saying that this style of skiing is very core intensive and it is a must to keep your core engaged almost every second in the course. Of course, all styles of skiing would benefit from having a strong core. By having the core engaged out to the turn buoy this style of skiing uses centrifugal force to swing the skier in and out of the turn quickly. Watch Aprils video again how she reaches high and behind the pylon coming into her offside 1,3,5 and slightly more forward on her 2,4,6, and how she utilizes the centrifugal forces to swing her through her turns quickly and smoothly. She is not counter rotating much either.

[Razorskier1]

@Rich -- my offside turns seem easy, smooth and with the big arc from whitewash to whitewash. The onside is where I tend to have more issues staying over the front. The feeling is as if when I release I begin to fall back and inward. I don't know if it will be obvious but I will post a 35 off video and maybe you and the rest can pick it apart a bit and tell me what you think since that is the shortest line that I run clean.