Leverage Position: A massive treatise for 15 offers

[sunvalleylaw]

@Skoot1123, I am just beginning this myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I was told by I think @ToddL to try sweeping (without pulling in) the handle down and across to my outside hip as I was patiently skiing that hip back to the handle. that motion to me seems like it would be "down". i tried that last time I was skiing, and it seemed to help, along with trying to make sure I was not grabbing the handle before my ski crossed back under the line. The result was better for me, and it seems like that sweeping motion is kind of "down".

[Than_Bogan]

@Skoot1123 @sunvalleylaw As far as I know that's still considered the best advice.

 

I think of it as just avoid wasted movement by putting the handle right where you want it to be to ski back into your leverage position.

 

If I ever get to writing my next article, the notion of "skiing back into your leverage position" will feature prominently.

[SpartanSki]

So this soft knees thing is something I'm struggling with.

 

This morning I had a gate where the ski left the water when I hit the wake and I cleared the outside gate ball. This did 3 things, 1 - caused me to nearly s@#t myself, 2 - when I actually landed i though, "that was kinda cool", but most importantly 3 - When I landed, (this was probably due to bad body position) I was already pulled over to my inside edge.

 

So when actually hitting the wake, should I be "softening" my knees to absorb the wake? Or am I just setting my angle and holding on for the ride?

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

The key to absorbing the wake is to use ONLY your knee and ankle joints to damp that out. Allow the ski to move toward you (which it must), but don't let your upper body get moved as a result.

 

But if you actually got launched, that's because you're ski is flat when you hit the wake. Hold the strong leverage position a fraction longer.

 

Aside/disclaimer: I launch at -22 on a regular basis, because a) I don't practice that line length and so b) when I do ski it, I am being super-conservative to avoid over-pulling and so come off the edge by the center-line at the latest. This does NOT mean that launching at -22 is the way it should look for someone for whom that is a challenging pass. (It is kinda fun, though...)

[Skoot1123]

@SpartanSki - I find that same thing too. I usually ski at 22 off and find that once I start to get tired I end up getting stood up and flatten out the ski. This is the result:

 

The 28 off is for sure better from the wake standpoint, but I know that whenver I go to a different boat, I'll be better off for dealing with this type of wake!

[Than_Bogan]

Niiiiice

[jhughes]

Love this thread but really getting sick of seeing "treatise" and "fifteen offers" every time I pull up this forum. I'm sure fully unintentionally but somewhat pretentious sounding.

[Skoot1123]

@OB - I wasn't saying those pictures were something to emulate. Just a result of when you do something wrong! Looks like you have a pretty good pull position there!

[Than_Bogan]

Curse you OB and your insightful, instructive posts. I have no choice but to Like that and put myself even further behind!!

 

:-)

[SpartanSki]

@OB, that's what I'm struggling with, staying on edge through the 2nd wake. When I really try to hold my edge through the wakes, I think I'm going stiff legged and not absorbing any of the wake, that and I'm probably not on edge as much as I think I am.

 

Still need to head out to @Triplett 's place and get some coaching.

[Than_Bogan]

Coaching trumps reading every time. My article is, at best, a supplement.

[ForrestGump]

I am in complete agreement with OB. A skier can't learn to release early until they learn to drive the ski through the 2nd wake and release late. That early release is all about angle and line tension. You can run 32 off with no angle, so I think a lot of skiers don't ever learn about angle and load management until they get to 35 off. And then they have to go back and relearn mechanics at 28 off to be able to advance at 35 off.

[Skoot1123]

@Than, @ShaneH, @OB - in your mind what is an intermediate skier? Someone that ski's 22 and 28 off, sometimes into 32? A LOT of the Waterski Magazine article's are geared toward the 36mph and 34 mph skier (it seems). Wish they would have more for the 22 and 28 off, 33.2 and 34 skier. I suppose once I get to a consistent 28 and 32, then I'll be able to worry about 35. Until then, I'm skiing 22 and a few 28's as I want to get more consistent.

[Than_Bogan]

@OB I'm going to at least partially disagree with you there. I'd claim that most of the best skiers in the word have a slight compression of their lower body as they cross the wakes. This small movement allows them to avoid any interruption to the path of the handle/upper body/etc.

 

Of course, how one should THINK about this is another question. For a more intuitive athlete, I totally agree that the answer lies in simply being more aggressive and holding edge through both wakes. A more technical (*cough* untalented) athlete may need to be told exactly what movements handle the wake crossing.

[SpartanSki]

...Hmm, maybe I'm in the wrong sport.

[Skoot1123]

@SpartanSki - but we enjoy it so much!!!

[Chef23]

I think @ShaneH raises an excellent point about driving through the second wakes. Watching Nate Smith ski makes people think they should be changing edges behind the boat. That only works if you pick up tremendous angle out of the ball, drive the ski through the wakes and maintain handle control so that the ski carries out after the edge change. Beginning skiers don't do any of that. To learn to do that you need to learn a stacked position that you carry through both wakes.

 

My son is struggling a little with some of this at 22 off. He has watched a ton of videos and thinks if he pulls through the second wake he will be fast at the buoy when the fact that he is letting off the pull early makes him fast and narrow at the ball.

 

I am with @OB on the absorbing of the wakes. If you are thinking about absorbing the wakes you likely don't have the ski on edge enough. There may be some slight give in the knees/ankles at the wakes but I don't think you can think about that. I think you need to get the ski on edge and drive it through the wakes. If you have the right body/ski position behind the boat you should barely feel them even at 15/22 off.

[ForrestGump]

One of the absolute hardest things to wrap my mind around when I started to make that transition from 28 and 32 off into 35 and 38 off was the difference between resist and push. Which I think goes hand in hand with this discussion now. Honestly, I still don't know how to describe it so someone can get it. You have to resist as the ski finishes the turn and the load builds, but when you tell a skier to resist, they push against the ski. Which isn't what is needed. I wish I could find a better way to say that.

[Than_Bogan]

@OB Agreed, except there's a catch-22 here that makes it very hard for some skiers: The wake is a problem until you learn to stay on edge, and you can't get yourself to trust staying on edge because the wake is a problem!

 

This category of skier needs strategies to get past that. Go harder and accept the frequent face-plant until you figure it out is one such strategy. (Not trying to be funny at all. Learn by failure is a totally legitimate learning style.) But that is not doable by some people.

[sunvalleylaw]

While I agree that time on the water, preferably coached time, would be best, there are some of us, I included, that don't have access to water nearly often enough. (I am working on correcting that). So, good visualization after understanding what I am supposed to be doing is the next best thing I can come up with (and dryland drills). I get that I need to be stacked, and on edge, and stay that way. But some mechanical and practical discussion of how to get there helps me quite a bit. About absorbing, I will say that I do think some about this, but mostly just not to have my lower body completely locked. If I lock my knees, I get back on the ski anyways, and don't have enough ski in the water.

 

Therefore, I appreciate @Than_Bogan's article very much, along with all the other help I have received here. @OB, thanks for your photo. That is a great mental pic for me. I see in your pic a ski well on edge, hips up and strong, shoulders level, arms low and straight with elbows on the vest. Very nice. Your thoughts are of great help too.

 

After being here a couple months, and getting distracted by concepts that really need to wait for me to nail the basic stuff first, I am getting more focused on what i need to do. I am the guy in the old red O'Neill vest above. As @ShaneH said, it is a "walk before you can run" thing.

 

Oh, and OB, I really relate to your friend in your other thread. I am about where he is, but not getting on the water nearly as much. I have skied for well over 30 years in various amounts, but have not had a ton of course experience, particularly coached or guided experience. I can ski pretty strongly out in the open water, but the course has always caused anything good I am doing to "go to sh*t" as you say.

 

Fortunately getting some good advice and visuals here, AND getting a bit of time on a good course behind a good boat and driver is helping with that. slowly, . . . slowly. I really get your friend's frustration and wanting to be better faster than is realistic.

[andjules]

@ShaneH - resist vs push reminds me of teaching someone how to do a deepwater start on one ski.

@Than, you're absolutely right that we all have some compression as we hit the wake, but I think @OB and @Chef23 may be right - the act of thinking about "soft knees" or absorbing the wakes will probably do more harm than good. On rare occasion there is a skier that actively needs to unlock their legs, but for the most part, they've already figured that out by the time they're running the course @ 30mph or above. I think what you're trying to articulate is that when we're truly stacked and strong with our hips, our knees and ankles need to flex under the impact (instead of our waist)... but I think for most that will happen by default (once we're stacked), no?

[sunvalleylaw]

@OB, re: your last post above, I get that, and was better at it when I skied more in the 90's. I am skiing more again and re-discovering it. As you said, time on the water. I know what it feels like when you slice through, and have done it a fair amount this year. Last run was the best of the year. The wake was hardly there, and it was not a great wake I was crossing. Keys were get on the edge, get my hips up and elbows on my vest, let my turn set up and not grab too high or soon so I can set that up, and voila! Trust that RCX and rip!

[Than_Bogan]

I don't think I can usefully continue this conversation in this format.

[sunvalleylaw]

Darn, I really like the discussion of your article and its contents. I'll be quiet and listen now.

[crashman]

well I guess as Elvis said a little less conversation and a lot more action- time to finish up work this afternoon and get a set in before what's left of Isaac washes out the rest of the weekend. I'm going to work on not taking so much angle off the buoy that I can't hold it through the wake. Had some great success with that last time.

[andjules]

@Than - sorry. And thanks so much for the article, it's been perkolating in my head all summer. I'd come to think I'd always been stacked (been a while since a coach commented on my lean), but watching some video of myself - and reading your article -gave me a wakeup call.

[sunvalleylaw]

@andjules, +1

[Than_Bogan]

No need to apologize! I'm not mad -- just would need some live interaction to hash out points this subtle.

 

And as always, glad to hear it's been helpful.

[Skoot1123]

@Than - your comments are helpful. Now just putting them into action!

[GaryWilkinson]

I think you are right Than in that we're into some very subtle details here about how the get into the leverage position and how long to keep it.

The consensus is for those of us at -28, & -32 is that we should hold the strong leverage "stacked" position past the 2nd wake. Done. Let's all do that.

 

I have one other question though,.. How does one "ski back to the handle" or "complete the turn" before grabbing the handle. I'm skiing tomorrow morning for the first time in a week and that is my goal. To somehow get the ski to come around in front of me while stacked, and have only one hand on the handle! I admit that so much of my style revolves around grabbing the handle too early and thus producing the proverbial bend at the waist. Barf! I think it stems back to the pre-turn where I'm letting up on my edge/leverage position too early and not carrying enough speed into the turn to be able to complete it with one hand on the handle.

 

Anyone follow that?

 

Anywho,... Any ideas on how to "ski back to the handle" or "let the ski complete the turn" before I grab on for a solid "resistance" against the bull of the boat??

Anyone?...

Anyone?...

Beuler?...

 

 

[sunvalleylaw]

@GaryWilkinson, I have been working on that too. I am not really qualified to coach, but I will tell you what I have been trying:

 

1. counter more, stay countered longer. I am doing that with adjusting where I am looking (more down course and not across), and by overemphasizing for now counter with my outside arm.

 

2. Waiting for it, patient and letting the ski finish the turn, and trying to see (in my peripheral vision), my ski cross under the rope before reaching.

 

3. Resisting pulling in on the handle, and rather sweeping the handle with a straight arm down and across toward the outside hip.

 

If I do it right, I end up as I complete the turn with straight arms, handle on the hips, and elbows on the vest. And a better lean just happens with all of that.

 

I have only played with this a run or two, and I want to get back out on the water sometime this weekend and try it some more.

 

I think @ToddL said that he believed getting this right was a huge key to getting a good stacked position going.

[gregy]

@GaryWilkinson, As @sunvalleylaw, I can't claim to be an experienced coach but I know the feeling when things are working well for me. Balanced stance on the ski maybe a little more on front foot coming into turn. Allow the ski to get on edge and be patient letting the ski do the work and come around. Let the ski lead not the upper body and shoulders. For me I practiced making long sweeping, none aggressive turns, the skiing back into handle is slower and more exagerated that way.

 

This article by Chris Rossi talks a lot about it skiing back into the handle. It helped me and I'm always thinking about the power triangle. http://www.slalomguru.com/articles.php?article=power

 

 

[sunvalleylaw]

@gregy, that is a really great article. Thanks!

[ToddL]

@GaryWilkinson Beuler? I think we can delay grabbing the handle to a point. However, much of the delayed grab also is the result of a good wake crossing and edge change prior. My point is this... When the skier is stacked and optimizes the lean in that power zone from white water to center line, then the edge change is early with substantial space before the buoy. The ski has sufficient momentum to carry out wide to the buoy, and the result is easy to maintain connection with the handle throughout. So, there is no flat riding, there is no pulling too long, there is no down-course speed, there are no issues... The skier just completes the turn with a tight line and with momentum such the the initiation of the next lean is smooth and effortless. When that happens, there is no need to grab the handle with urgency. The skier can simply guide the handle across and down to the outside hip while the ski come around under the line. At this point the free hand was able to meet the handle at the hip and is ready for the next lean...

 

So while we should be aware of our bad habits to grab that handle ASAP and make efforts to back off as much as we can, ultimately we have to have a good turn before to achieve the perfect, patient grab of the handle. If you are being as patient as possible to grab the handle and still feel like you aren't there, yet; then consider what is happening at the wake crossing, edge change, and turn prior to the grab...

[crashman]

@gregy thanks for linking that article

”Knee bend at finish of turn.” This is done only when a poor turn is chosen and too much load is felt. By bending the knees, you can limit how much your Power Triangle is pulled apart. We do not want to base our skiing around knee bend but rather use it when we need it. What I am looking for is fairly straight legs (not locked out and pushing) in an athletic position."

 

I think I've misjudged how bad excess load can be at my level. I think I can sum my current aspirations up as: use the balanced position to generate speed and direction through the gate, maintain that speed through the course using the position as much as possible without generating a line load that pulls me out of the position. Skiing back to the handle doesn't click for me but if I think about carrying enough speed around the buoy back toward the wake that I can get there before I take the boat's pull then good things happen which is probably similar to skiing back to the handle. Seems like I'm able to do this if I keep my head up and shoulders a little more level through the turn- and if I've generated sufficient speed and direction on the preceding lean.

 

[crashman]

alright fellas this seems to be working well- I had some good progression last night. I'm gaining more width and earlier for the balls at my current "max speed" which is 31mph. My right tensor fasciae latae seems to be a little sore which helps confirm for me I'm moving through the gate more with my hips...

But...

My right quad (I'm LFF) is pretty sore, and I feel like as I straighten my arms I'm riding through the wakes more on the tail of the ski. Not unstable or anything, and I've read in some places that tail riding to a degree is not such a bad thing @skiing2heaven , and if I try to consciously put more weight on my front foot it seems to take me out of my balanced position.

 

1) as a LFF skier is it normal to feel more back leg quad soreness than my right?

2) does this indicate I'm developing a bad habit I'll have to fix later?

3) I know I need to take video again

[GaryWilkinson]

Well what a weekend. Started out with my now normal -28 ,-32 off set and was focused on delaying my reach to enable a better, taller more stacked and aligned position when getting 2 hands on the handle. Tried it on a few passes and felt like I wasn't get the ski around far enough to enable a short reach.

 

Stuck with it , sort of, and worked my -32 in holding my edge thru the 2nd wake and keeping the elbow in close to the vest and hip in the pre-turn. When I do it right the turn and edge setting is easier and powerful.

 

So I did 5 complete passes of -32 off at a soft 34mph (33) and was feeling good but still getting shoulder drop on toeside. Did 3passes of -32 this morning and went to -35 and threw-up at 1 ball. Not ready for that yet.

 

Went back ton-28 to work on form and on my last pass, decided to stand up taller during the reach and counter rotate some. Holy-shortline Batman I had one of best-passes-of-my-life moments.

It was soooo easy!

Came around the ball nicely at every ball (no shoulder drop 'cept for 6ball cuz I was laughing so hard.

 

Elbows somewhat tight, hips somewhat forward but reach was nice, and position was in strong shape to give great leverage. Here in lies ze problem. I looked at the video of the run and it was disappointing.

 

Basically looked like my regular style maybe a bit better. A little smoother that most of the other passes today but nothing stellar. Bummed but not discouraged, I will not soon forget that pass and that feeling though. Looked like too much flat ski, but I think that was cuz my preturn, turn and edge set was so good I shot across the surface early enough that I could literally stop the hard pull portion right behind the boat and do a long edge change.

 

(hey Pierre,mask Manon how great it looked from her boat) but it didn't look that good in the video.)

 

Anyone ever have that happen where you think you put it all together but it didn't look that good from the crew?

 

Let me know.

Gw

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

I think it's time to take some of this stuff to new threads! Even I am getting bored of seeing this one on the front page all the time, and we're now getting into questions well beyond the scope of the linked article.

[andjules]

It would be great if @Horton could put the original article somewhere easy-to-find on the site (it should also be on fifteenoff.com!). I think the reason this thread is remaining on the front page is because the original resource ('treatise') is so useful (thanks @Than_Bogan).

[scuppers]

@GaryWilkinson - It NEVER looks as good as it feels. That's just the way it is. Sounds like some darn good skiing though.

[sunvalleylaw]

The original article, and/or even this thread, should be linked in the FAQ section @Horton is working on, and/or in the beginner mandatory read thread @gregy is working on.

[itch2ski]

The original article should be in the Tech Articles link from the home page.

[Than_Bogan]

And I should get a free BoS T-shirt and hat.

 

(We are doing Jedi Mind Tricks on Horton, now, right??)

[ToddL]

@Than_Bogan before it is posted, take a moment to review this thread and similar ones. There is a lot of good sense-making in the comments. I'm sure your article could go further with the inclusion of some of these comments.

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL True, and I have included some stuff. But in the end one article cannot cover every angle, and I don't feel comfortable to include advice that I've never actually used (even when it has worked great for others teaching and makes complete sense).

 

Perhaps more importantly, I suggest linking directly to the google doc, so that any future updates I remember to make are automatically referenced.

[ToddL]

@Than_Bogan said, "I suggest linking directly to the google doc, so that any future updates I remember to make are automatically referenced."

 

Yes.

[GaryWilkinson]

You're right, shoulda been a new thread.

 

Next time.

[gt2003]

Thanks @Than_Bogan ! I read the article just now and as a very new, wannabe course skier, it makes a lot of sense. The things I am feeling now and second guessing are all things you hit on. I think I actually felt good "angle" on my pullouts this weekend. It wasn't scary, wasn't out of control but just felt smooth and fast. Hoping to transfer that into wake crossings in the very near future. Thanks again. Off to read @Horton 's article now.

[Horton]

I have a new article on this subject brewing.....

[sunvalleylaw]

Bumping this thread again as I do some winter mental imagery. Thinking about this article, in light of the advanced stack article in the advanced section, which may change how I want to think about leveraging, and where my weight is over my feet, and where the handle is in relation to my body/hips, when doing so.