bstphen24 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 @than Thank you for a great article. I got my first crack at 36mph yesterday concentrating on some of the things from your article. I feel like keeping my arms straight made a drastic improvement from the very get go. Like others have said, thank you for taking the time for us 15' offers and putting together something that is very well written and easy to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travnews Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 @Than_Bogan "Based on my skiing this weekend (at the easiest site ever, no less), it is obvious I am entirely unqualified to give anyone any advice about skiing." I think, I would disagree with your statement above. Thank you for the time and dedication you put into this sport. I am fairly new to the sport and a lot of the things you have said on this website and in your article have helped me understand what others are trying to say/teach. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 23, 2012 @travnews I think Than was poking some fun at himself about not being worthy to coach. I haven't spoken to him yet but my guess is he didn't ski well (for him) at the tournament this weekend which was at a sight he usually skis well at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 23, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yep. Believe me I am VERY aware of how far I've come and that plenty of folks would be completely stoked with a few 3.5s at -35. But slalom scores are always relative to the skier, the site, and the conditions. Given all of those, I honestly thought 1.5 @ -39 would have been a possible score. Falling 10 buoys short, after 3 chances, is pretty painful. So I wasn't trying to be serious at all, and you guys can't imagine how happy I am that this article has been helping so many people. But boy am I grumpy right now. Huge underperformances aren't a ton of fun. They happen, and learning to move on is important, too. Maybe I'll start moving on tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 23, 2012 @Than As I have been working on this two thoughts occur. I am not leaning away enough or so something to get the handle down on my hips. need to work on that. I am not progressive enough. I tend to try to hit it hard out of the turn then am letting up already as I am getting to the wakes. at least that is what I was seeing in my vids. need to learn to get into that position more smoothly andmstrongly. maybe linked "gates" drills from each side will help. thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travnews Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 @Chef23 I understand that he was poking fun at himself, it was just my way of saying thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddF Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 This might be the best article I have read, at least for me. I used it today and amazingly I actually liked the way I skied. I wasn't tired and best of all my lower back wasn't tight or sore. So just for that reason alone it is worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted July 27, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted July 27, 2012 THANKS @ToddF. That's a big compliment and I really hope it leads you to a lot more buoys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 30, 2012 It is so fun to have a guide like this for getting back into skiing! thanks again Than so much for sharing this! I hope I am not going off topic, but can we discuss the concepts here using a pic of me pulling as an example? " /> Hmm. the link didn't work to embed for some reason. Here is a link to the photo: http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/DSC00650.jpg What does anyone see that is good or bad here in relation to the goals in Than's article? It is my hope that any discussion generated will not only help me but help others working at a similar level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 30, 2012 Without bending at the waist, lower yourself so that your entire body is leaning against the rope. This will result in the handle being very close to your body – quite possibly touching it. I’ve heard some would-be coaches talking about “getting the handle down” or “getting your hips to the rope,” but I honestly don’t think either of those is possible to do directly. Instead, that needs to be the result of hanging your entire mass against the rope. You’ll know you’re there when that handle ends up touching your body. But if you just try to force it to your body, I don’t think you’ll have much luck. this paragraph is really interesting me at the moment. I am trying to figure out how to do this on the water. I believe I have an old habit of hurrying the end of the turn and closing it off, which is also related to grabbing at the handle too "high" and then trying to bring the handle down do the hip rather than letting the ski come around more naturally so the hip comes to the handle already in a good position to hold that handle closer to the hip. My correction attempt for my next run (hopefully today I will get a couple in) is to force myself not to look way across the wakes as is my old habit, and be more patient with the end of the turn. This will be out of course so I will not be worried about making it to the next ball. Then once the turn is complete and the handle is near my hips, I will see how my position feels, if my balance is better over both feet, and what angle develops. I bet it will be improved if I can be more patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted July 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 30, 2012 @sunvalleylaw Delay the reach to the handle with the free hand as the turn concludes. In other words, ski the hip back around between you and the boat so that the hip comes to the handle before you grab on. Also, I've heard - at the conclusion of the turn, bring the handle across your body and downward towards the hips. Also, keep the free hand on the outside hip and try to ski the ski around so that the handle just ends up there - very small reach to grab on. All of the above phrases are meant to address a skier who is reaching up and forward for the handle too soon before the turn has really completed. Doing so, will cause shoulders to go forward and to lock into a lean with your ski pointed more down course than cross course. It seems so backwards to wait in slalom, but being patient at the conclusion of the turn will allow you more time to get into a better, stacked position and have the ski pointed more aggressively across the boat's path. All of that will result in an earlier and wider set up on the next buoy. Everyone wants to "back-side" every buoy. However, back-siding a buoy while in crappy, impatient position will not run the pass. Rather, a patent turn that is late and concludes with a stacked position will always round the next buoy. I've seen very successful skiers run the entire pass "front-siding" each buoy, but with patient turns and stacked, cross-course starts to the leans. It seems that late is no big deal if you finish the turns/start the leans properly. I am starting to believe that the key to all slalom success is the initial body position just before the lean fully engages. It seems that bad turns come from bad edge changes which come from bad leans which started poorly. Great starts to the lean result in early path off the wake, width into the buoy, slower feeling turns, and time to be patient to establish a stacked position for the next lean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted July 30, 2012 @ToddL, thanks! That expands on what @gregy noted to me in my photo sequence thread. I hope to practice two things later today when I ski, 1: keep looking down course rather than turning my head across the wakes as is my old habit. I hope that will help me be more patient. 2: see how patiently and smoothly I can let the ski come around without pushing it around with my rear foot or anything and how how long I can keep my hand free hand off the handle. It would probably help to do a couple dryland pulls as @Than suggests first to get the feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itch2ski Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Its amazing how much off-the-water training can help. Both practicing position with a handle and mental thought. I am exactly what this "chapter" describes and I have been trying to read it at least once a day to get it into my head. I am predominantly a freeskier with old bad habits. I have tried the course a handful times with little success because I thought skiing was all about the turns. I have been working on correct body position since this article was posted and finally had the chance to run the course last night. I ran a 28 mph @15off pass for the first time ever and ran it several times. I also got all but one ball on my 30 mph @15off pass. I am now addicted. Thanks @Than! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 3, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 3, 2012 Yessssssssss! Welcome to my nefarious scheme to create a new legion of addicts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosehead Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 @TB and the rest of the Ballers - thank you for the detailed discussion and visual/mental cues. Back on the water for first time in 30 years despite lack of skill and a hip replacement. At first, it was to just cajole our kids into skiing, now it's also pure selfish enjoyment. Much appreciate both the noob and short line material in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MrBrown Posted August 4, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 4, 2012 "Hip-to-Elbows Connection", or you could say "Vest to the Elbows" or "Elbows to the Vest"! http://waterskimag.com/features/2010/04/19/how-to-maximize-cross-course-direction/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsmith Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Than, I appreciate the article. It really struck a chord with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itch2ski Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Ok, this article has been a goldmine for my skiing. I posted about a week ago (4 posts up), I am now back to say that I went from running a full pass 28 mph @15off to running full passes 34 mph @15off! So pumped right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 13, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 13, 2012 @itch2ski That is completely awesome!!! Keep it going! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted August 21, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 Bump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 21, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 @jipster43 - Congrats! That must mean your at 22! Good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted August 21, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 @Skoot1123 Thanks! After two decades of telemark skiing, I was the poster child for the inefficient position. Just as @Than Bogan pointed out, every time I got to 22' off I'd turn into slack at 1 ball. So I spent the past month solely concentrating on my position. I took a vacation and skied on open water for a week working on my gate pull out and turn in - over and over. At the end of that week I headed to The Broho for a tournament and on my first round I ran right up to my 22 pass and got a great gate and was early and wide all the way to 4 ball. It was so easy and amazing that I kind of freaked out at 4 (my toe side) and couldn't get to 5. I flubbed at 15' (34mph) the next round, but I crushed my 22 pass on my third round - in the wind - and just like everyone says it felt like the easiest pass of my life. Since then I've been consistently getting to 4 ball at 22 and running it over 50% of the time. I still have a lot of work to do - my position gets a little sketched out when the boat speeds up, but it feels great making any sort of improvement. My tournament PB is up a full pass (2@ 28) and improving rapidly... knock on wood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 21, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 This is truly amazing and awesome, folks. I really didn't expect I was going to help people quite this much. Very satisfying. Keep it up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashman Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 add me to the list of thankfuls . Added another mph to my previous personal best last night and then smoked it twice- something clicked with my offside pulls. Than was it you that said to "hang your upper body by the weight of the boat"? that really resonated with me last night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 21, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 @crashman That's been one of the biggest keys for me to get from a terrible leverage position to a passable one. I say that to people a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 21, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 @Than - I had a lesson on Saturday and I was working on my position through the wakes. My coach made a comment to the effect that "turns can be not that great, but as long as you have a good position you can make the pass." I'd have to agree with that. However with my limited experience at 32 off, there are others more qualified than I to say something. What are your thoughts? Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 21, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 21, 2012 "If you have a solid leverage position behind the boat, you can still run difficult passes with poor turns. If you don’t have that position, then as the rope gets shorter, the best turns in the world cannot save you." From the piece. So safe to say I agree with @Skoot1123's coach! That said, at 32 off, especially at 36 mph, there is more to it than just the body position behind the boat. You need it to have a chance, but you also need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted August 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 22, 2012 Great position wake crossings create room for great turns. Great turns result in better body position to start the wake crossing. So focus on wake crossing body position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Davis_LK Posted August 27, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2012 @Than_Bogan, thank you so much for this article, I have been reading it and practicing ever since you posted. I finally got into the course this weekend to test my limited skills (just started skiing this summer) and feel that following your advice truly helped. First day in the course, got the ski around 2 ball at 15 off (26 mph), I was so exhausted by that point I just let go of the rope to celebrate. Second day in the course, not only did I get around 2 ball but was able to hook back up for the pull only to find myself late for 3 (got a little too excited about making 2 ball!). The biggest difference between day one and two was when I got 2 ball on the second day I was actually early! The pull from 1 ball to 2 ball on that run felt so effortless and I believe that was the best leverage position I have ever been in on my offside (probably nowhere near perfect though!). Now that I have had a taste of the course I am completely hooked. If I can keep picking up a ball per week I may actually run a full pass before our short season ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 27, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 27, 2012 Go Davis_LK, go!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 27, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2012 @Than - perhaps this is what you mean by a good leveraged position? It may not be ideal, but I am open to comments!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 27, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 27, 2012 That's pretty darned solid -- probably better than I usually am. That certainly should move "leverage position" off of your "major weaknessses" list. But if you're aiming for perfection, you want your upper body even more away from the boat, which will result in the handle actually touching your body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 @Than - I'm just a work in progress. There is always room to improve. Of course I chose the best picture of the bunch, so not all of them are like this. I know I need to work on keeping my knees soft through the wake so I can get a good transition to the edge. Any experience with a big dip before the wake? (as is my case...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 28, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 We're all works in progress! Every time I talk with Jamie I remember how little I know. What do you mean by a "big dip"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 @Skoot1123 Honestly, I consider your hips to be a little behind, shoulders to be too far forward, shoulder dropped, head a little dropped. Not bad, but can be better IMO. I think if you equalized the load between your arms a little more, it would level your shoulders and pull your hips up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 @Than - enough of a "dip" to send me airborne off the first/second wake. This could also be what happens if I try to edge change to early and get flat on the ski and end up narrow... @ShaneH - there are definitely some pictures where I have A LOT more separation between my legs and the handle. By trying to keep my legs "soft" I have a tendancy to come forward on my ski. There is a tough balance to that and I don't know that I "have it down" yet. SOOOO much to work on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 You are actually experiencing what most experience when trying to soften the knees. The body's first move is to drop the butt a touch which naturally moves your shoulders forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 Gonna try one more time to link a photo of my leveraged position from a month ago. the link didn't work last time, and I would love to get some comments. http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/DSC00650.jpg I like to think that since this photo, I am getting my elbows on my vest better, and hopefully letting my hip come to the ski more so as to allow that. That said, any other comments would be appreciated. The tip seems a bit up to me in this photo. Oh, and I should open my eyes. I don't ski with my eyes closed, not sure why it looks like that in this photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 @sunvalleylaw I bet very few of the pros can do that with their eyes closed! Good sking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller XR6Hurricane Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 Than - thanks so much for this article, I printed a copy of it a couple of weeks ago and have been studying it and practicing it as much as I can. It helps to have it written in a way that makes a lot of sense. This is the first time in several years that I've had a lot of quality time on the water. I'm already finding that if I follow what you wrote to the tee, I feel like I'm skiing a lot better and have gotten a couple of compliments that I've improved. Elbows to the body would be a work in progress. I'm a recreational, 30-31 mph free skier and I'm just thrilled to finally be kicking the problem of my body wanting to fold in half when I hit the first wake. Being 125 lbs, I've always felt powerless, particularly behind an inboard, but the pointers are really helping. Also, the description of the stage at the beginning was right on the money for me. The other thing that has gone hand in hand with this for me has been Terry Winter's 2-minute video on body alignment. That helped get me off the tail of the ski at the start of the turns and feel safer coming across the wake. Really kind of makes things go "click". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 @sunvalleylaw, looks like you are pulling, not leaning in that your arms are a bit bent and your handle is separated from your hips. Shoulders back and level, hips up, straight arms at that point in the pull (and that will relax your face!). It's fun to hear about everyone's improvements thanks to Than's article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted August 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2012 Thanks @6balls. I have been working on those very things since this pic, and can tell the difference when I get closer to correct. Lots of years of habits to overcome so it will take a while. But focusing on the elbows to the vest seems to help a lot, along with vision and more patience at the end of the turn to allow the handle to get to the hip (or vice versa), and let the body set up more smoothly to get into a better lean rather than a pull. I appreciate the remarks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GaryWilkinson Posted August 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 Than, After 40 years of slalom in a BAD position, here is a pic of me from last week in my new leveraged position at an easy -28 off 34 mph. Still haven't gone through -32 (I panicked at 5 ball 3 times saying "I've got this") but I am much more ahead and a lot less panicked in my runs. Feel free to comment and offer advice. Thanks again for your article Than, can't wait for the other 6? Chapters! (having trouble attaching the pic using my iPad, any ideas?) http://ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/utility/thumbnail/2418/~cf/FileUpload/be/2bd9b4370a5d6d5144bf1c0b9930a2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 29, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 Gary, you look like you have more of a "new school" (Horton forgive me for bringing up that obsolete term) position, so I think you hip position may be OK. However, you still want that rope to end up closer to your body -- in your case it may be touching your thighs. The way this will happen is for your arms to straighten just a touch more and allow your upper body to get more away from the boat. Pay particular attention to the fact that, in this picture, your lower body is more leaned away than your upper body is. If you look at most of the top folks as they enter the backwash area (where I think you are?) they are almost the opposite: upper body nearly in a straight line with the rope, but of course lower body cannot do that (without being under water). Again, I don't do it any better than any of these photos, so this is a pure "do as I say, not as I do" comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted August 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 @Than_Bogan, you may say you can't do it any better than any of these photos, but your course results will take years for a guy like me to get to, if I ever do. Thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashman Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I'm having fun paying attention to the different muscle groups that get sore after I ski as I adjust my form- I used to feel it a lot in my upper shoulders/upper back, now I don't. Usually if I feel it in my biceps I've skied like poo. ab soreness seems to be a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Than_Bogan Posted August 29, 2012 Author Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 @crashman Those are awesome observations. Pretty accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted August 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 @crashman, the shoulders and upper back are where I have traditionally felt it too, along with my forearms. I will pay attention to what I feel as I try to adjust my position. Good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GaryWilkinson Posted August 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2012 Wow that would be really far back and in a strong and aligned position! I think you're right on Than in that all the pictures I see and try to emulate have the upper body almost parallel to the water and very much in line with the rope. Also,while it may sound obvious, if my upper body is further back, it's not bent forward which is my biggest problem for the past say,.. 30 years! As soon as it is slightly bent forward, it is "vulnerable" to bend further forward under the strain of the force from the rope. Sorta like if you were to take a bungee cord attached to each end of a thin stick, if straight on a table, the cord could be pulled to each end and the stick would hold. If you introduce a kink or small bend or weakness under the same cord tension it would snap or bend extensively. ....am I confusing you all? Anyway the visualization and your comments Than are what I'm going to bring to the water tomorrow night at a private lake where I hope to kick the green loops' arse! Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Skoot1123 Posted August 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted August 30, 2012 For curiosity sake I went and looked at some of the "old" threads on the website. Page 114 to be specific. There was a comment on one of them from Drew Ross tlaking about reaching back for the handle after the turn. Drew stated that most people bring the handle in or up, and as a result get pulled out of position, not to mention get lots of strain on their muscle's. He suggested to push the handle down (not sure "how much") and that would cause your body to fall back, giving you a more efficient position and therefore better position across the wakes. Anyone ever try this? On the water or on land? Hoping to get to the ski lake tonight and try it...otherwise try it at home in the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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