Do you understand this image? Stisher => Comments?

[Horton]

 

From 2012 BigDawgTexas

[SM]

I'll bite. He's running late but still changes his edge early and will avoid eating slack after the ball because of it. It's all in the facial expression.

[Horton]

@SM hmmmm forget where he is as far as early or late and he always makes terrible faces.

 

See how far he is from the centerline => see where the ski is in relation to his shoulders => notice his spine angle => notice his connection to the boat => notice where is sternum is pointing

 

@Sethski

 

 

[danbirch]

and notice how close his trailing elbow is to his vest...something that "@danbirch" cannot do...lol

[skibug]

Yes, I understand wholly that he is/was a professional elite skier that can do things that most of us hacks can't or won't ever be able to do...@Horton, thanks for reminding me how much I suck. Have a nice day.

[Chef23]

On the sternum front isit that the sternum is more or less pointing in the direction he is going?

[Wish]

Optimum handle control and edge change. The ability to separate the upper and lower half of your body. Optimal edge change. I can do that. ....... Happens almost every night in my dreams.

[T-fromTO]

I think he is trying to start a new school of thought with the sternum facing the direction of the ski. I am not convinced.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Yeah, just after the wakes, ski starting to get the ski on its turning edge, handle/elbows inclose, eyes and shoulders level, body in slightly in the "C" position. Not too shabby for a kid.

[Boody]

Its about perfect, not late. Has the outbound direction and on his inside edge at the same time. I would love to be able to do that.

 

#1 on Butterfield

[MattP]

@Horton only person to somewhat look like Nate Smith after the second wake.

[thager]

Too much ExLax!

[RichardDoane]

he's doing a great job of keeping his knees together like Nate, I'm working on that .....

[SkiJay]

Maybe not the ONLY person ...

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1530989/Waterskiing/Edge%20Change/Asher.jpg

 

Beautiful onside example:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1530989/Waterskiing/Edge%20Change/Marc%20Shaw.jpg

[sunvalleylaw]

Newb here trying to figure this out.

 

@Horton said: "See how far he is from the centerline => see where the ski is in relation to his shoulders => notice his spine angle => notice his connection to the boat => notice where is sternum is pointing"

 

These last two pics, the edge has not changed much yet. First pic it has. I guess that is related to ski relative to shoulders. The other thing i notice is how his shoulders are closed to the boat and sternum is pointed out not down course. I guess this is related to centerline, spine angle and where sternum is pointing. This is different from the consistent down course shoulders and chest suggested by some.

 

Connection to the boat, the only thing I can come up with is his arms are fairly in, and he does not seem to be getting pulled into the boat.

 

Newb comments only as I try to figure this stuff out.

[gregy]

Wish my edge change looked like that!

[HO 410]

Skiers should not have to witness the horrors of their photographs taken with are two hands on the handle?

[Razorskier1]

Freakin awesome position on the ski.

[SkiJay]

All of these pictures sure highlight how important it is for your rear binding to allow your rear ankle to flex forward ... a lot.

[sunvalleylaw]

These pics also highlight to me how important a bullet proof, bomber core is to modern skiing. To move in a controlled manner from that knees together chair position must take a ton of strength in the core.

[Triplett]

All these photos basically say is be lined up on the ski, especially in the edge change. That is the one thing that is common to every single pro, no matter the "style" they ski.

[ski6jones]

All are still well connected to the boat, but transitioned to the inside edge of the ski.

[Wish]

Marc Shaw is one of those skiers that manages to keep the ski way way out I front of him in the preturn all the way through the to the finish. I believe the above pic is how he does it. So much out bound speed. Is this a process of sucking the knees up off the second wake to achieve this "C" position? I see AM do this.

[MattP]

Ding Ding Ding @Triplett nailed it.

[bogboy]

Judge a stud skier like s.s. on a photo? Are you kidding? He is one of the most high end, graceful skiers I have seen.

[bogboy]

I will ask him for his autograph on my triumph.

[Razorskier1]

Skied open water today cuz the course was blown out. All I tried to do was to be in that position on the second whitewash. What I found most insightful about it was that to be in that position on the second wash required me to think differently about the entire lean. Lean too much and you will never achieve this position. This sport would be so much easier if all you had to do is pull real hard!

[sunvalleylaw]

@Razorskier1, how'd imitating those positions go? What did you notice? did you try to work more the knees or the chest/sternum/shoulders, or all of it? How did your edge change go?

 

And about pulling, yeah, right? I always had a good strong pull. I wish it was that easy. Now I am starting over basically after years of just getting a few freeski pulls a year. At least I got an invite to one of the private lakes with a course next week. If that works out, maybe I will be back in the course more regularly. :-)

[sunvalleylaw]

@Razorskier1, thanks for the answer in the other thread. As I said there, I probably need to focus on finding my fundamentals and rhythm before getting too fired up about what the Big Dawgs are doing at 39.5 off. But then again, maybe not. Maybe it will be good to start figuring it out as a re-start this whole thing. I will have to experiment with the open shoulders vs. what I am seeing in the pics above. In the past, if I closed my shoulders, it was more behind the boat as I leveraged away to create speed, hopefully progressively before I let off before the edge change. I might have to re-think all that.

 

I hopefully will get some decent open water time this weekend to experiment. Main thought there is going to be to clean up my release and keep control of the handle a whole lot better than I was remembering to do free skiing a few times a year the last few years.

[Razorskier1]

Doing this was interesting. It felt like I was squeezing my core, squeezing my elbows to my vest, and squeezing the handle all at the same time (along with squeezing my knees together). A whole lot of squeezing.

[sunvalleylaw]

@Razorskier1, It is interesting that modern moves in alpine snow skiing are more core oriented and involve very active and flexed core muscles. Good idea for us late 40-something skiers to keep up the core work.

[6balls]

My more lame attempt at same last year at Skiwatch tourney.

[Razorskier1]

Looks pretty good @6balls -- just squeeze the sphincter a little more.

[liquid d]

When anywhere near South Carolina , go take a set with Seth at his site....great at teaching and helping you find your best way to get through the next pass. I just stopped by on my epic rv journey with some shortline action along with my boy doin the minicourse!

[Horton]

Funny. I started this thread because @Sethski commented to me about the picture. At this point I think he is afraid to chime in.

[Sethski]

Horton, thanks for calling me out. Seriously, my point is this, the transition from the cutting edge of the ski out to the apex of the turn is the most critical part of slalom skiing. That having been said, here is my 2 cents:

 

-1st of all, it is nice to read all of the thoughts on what is going on because it gives me good perspective and opinion on what things might be happening that aren't even a part of my focus. You all have some great points about what you think is important and what you think is going on.

-2nd of all, I am in no way perfect at what I am trying to do in this picture

-3rd...to me this is not about where my body is facing and keeping my body pointed in the same direction as the ski even though Triplett points that out as being the big key. I personally never let that cross my mind. To the contrary I personally try to keep my body facing the high side of the ski (which is the edge of the ski that is not driving into the water). In this picture I am moving through the transition which is where the ski is moving from one edge to the other and simultaneously my body is transitioning from facing the left edge of the ski to facing the right edge of the ski as I attempt to cast the ski out to the turning edge.

-4th. Whether I accomplish it or not, what I am trying to do is shoot the ski out from between me and the boat without giving up any power and therefore hopefully not giving up any direction. The real idea here is that as you ride the ski from the previous turn to the wakes the ski is ring pressurized by the pull of the boat. This pressure alleviates itself in the way of speed in the direction the ski is pointed. If I start to advance my lower body out from under my upper body without upsetting my upper body, the ski will continue outbound while casting out onto the turning edge. This means efficient path while also prepping itself for the next turn.

 

I leaned some of this from Jamie B and my good fried Jason Hutchins in talks with them about building pressure on the ski and using that pressure (which I often refer to as stored energy) to cast the ski out to the buoy line.

 

And as someone mentioned I you just get into a deep lean, you must give up your power in order to transition which will result in direction loss and loss of control as well as causing the skier to run an inefficient path.

 

Thoughts?

[Razorskier1]

Totally agree with @sethski on the importance of that transition. When I do run my 38 off pass it always feels easy, and it feels like the difference is what happens right after the second wake. There is sort of this magical feeling of being light, yet having tension on the line and getting cast into a nice gentle arc as I approach the ball. Hard to describe, but I come in feeling like I have great balance, good position on the ski, and plenty of time. I don't even consider that I might miss the pass.

 

On the other hand, if I generate excessive load (often later in the lean), then the ski snaps from the boat side of the handle to the back side of the handle, I get unloaded right at the buoy and bad things happen.

 

For me, making that transition work is all about not overloading the lean. If when I initiate the turn in and feel the handle pressure, I just resist that and nothing more (not easy to do), then I seem to end up in the right place. Wish I could do it every time.

[Wish]

@Sethski, So is what you discribe accomplished at all by sucking the knees up off the second wake? Or are the forces generated before enough to cast the ski under and away from you or is it both. I tried this this morning and got all wacked out of shape. Have to try again though, found out after the set that my DFT on the ski had moved.....a lot.

[ForrestGump]

@Sethski You are the first person to describe what you do in the transition in a manner I can understand. Nice.

[webbdawg99]

Definitely agree that the transition is critical. Opening myself up to some feedback here. Thoughts?

[6balls]

@webbdawg99 you look good at the transition point...carry that out with some handle control and you should be dialed. The pro's/dawgs seem to have more knee bend than the rest of us right at that spot...not possible for my body.

[sunvalleylaw]

This is really great!! I am really enjoying this discussion. Transitions in board sports (whether two or one involved) are so key.

 

I was able to ski quite a bit this weekend (open water only, see my pic of where you ski thread), and I tried to play with what I understood about this discussion. This was before Seth's explanation. I figured out a couple things. 1), in the years I have spent just freeskiing a few times a year, I forgot all about handle control and keeping control in the transition. 2), Trying to keep the knees bent and together helps with a much stronger core move. I am not strong enough to do it properly, and keep as much handle control as I want, but I can see a path to pursue. For me at my level, it was less about where my upper body was pointing, and keeping open down course somewhat seemed to work. It was more about my core and knees and handle control. At least at this point where I am. I am excited to get a look at how the great skiers are approaching transition as opposed to my 90's understanding. 3), working on this stuff immediately got me working my ski better. I had so much fun! Now I can't wait to try out what Seth was saying.

 

Thank all of you, and thank you @Seth, for this great discussion!