Should B2 slalom skiers be allowed to use the light/junior ropes?

[ToddL]

@mlusa - Russell, thanks for contributing to the discussion. You said, "Just before Team Trials, she started skiing 34 mph. In her first set out at 34 she ran 28 off. Then we realized that she was on the smaller rope. It took her 6 sets to finally run 28 off after switching from the 8mm line to the standard. The first couple of sets she could run any pass. So it clearly makes a difference even at 28 and 32 for the smaller skiers."

 

Did you mean to say, "...The first couple of sets she could not run any pass..."

 

I wonder where Anna, Neilly, and others would be today if they had to switch to the standard rope at the age of 10.

[LeonL]

Just a tidbit of info, but not really part of the discussion since it relates to B1. The current number 1 ranked B1 skier starts at 26 -22, runs 26, 28 30 and then several buoys at -28 on a light line.

[ToddL]

Thanks, @LeonL. I wonder what he will do when he turns 10...

[Than_Bogan]

@LeonL Actually, that changes everything!

 

Given the clear need, I withdraw my proposal to only supply light lines for long line.

[ToddL]

I've been told that Chris Rossi has been measured at -39.5 at 36 MPH with a peak load of 800 lbs. I've heard that Bob LaPoint once generated 1000 lbs.

 

These B2 skiers can't go 36 MPH. Their max is 34. Chris and Bob are not small men. The CDC 97th percentile for 13 year old Boys (and Girls) is under 160. I can't imagine that a 160-lb 13 year old is truly athletic enough to compete in our sport. Thus, let's imagine a 140-lb B2 skier at 34MPH. Surely, their rope loads will be sufficiently less than Rossi's or Bob's. I would venture a guess of 500 lbs max. The Masterline Junior rope is rated at 1,100 lbs. The AWSA spec requires 1000 lbs for lightweight (a.k.a. junior) ropes. I just don't see what risk we have to protect against. Plus the Masterline rope only goes to -35. Maybe we need to ask Masterline and AWSA to agree to limit the lightweight ropes to only -32... Again, if Rossi at -39/36MPH only pulls 800 lbs., then a 140-lb B2 at -32/34MPH surely will be sufficiently below the 1,100 capability of the junior ropes.

[mlusa]

I don't see any reason to limit the lightweight line to any length. Kristin Baldwin ran 2 @35 in G1 this past weekend. Why penalize these skiers when they reach 35? She isn't generating significantly more pressure than 32 off. It would be nice to put a gauge on these top skiers to see what they are pulling. I don't think that the max is any more at 35 than it would be at 32. They are actually being more proactive with their pull at 28 than at 35, at 35 they are just trying to hang on to what they get out of the ball.

 

I think the skiers that are putting enough strain to come close to the max break strength will forgo these ropes in favor of something less stretchy. Already at 70 lbs, Anna, Neilly and Brooke are not choosing to use this rope because of their ability. Anna and Neilly prefer the 8mm and I think Brooke is just skiing with the standard rope. I think that will be the progression that will happen. You won't see many strong slalom skiers over 100 lbs opting for the light rope. If they are, it's because they are at long line.

 

The big problem I see is the B2 division. The speed jumps 4 mph and they are forced to the larger rope. That is a lot of change for these young skiers. My son won't be ready for this at the end of the year. I don't see why the skier can't choose to use the smaller rope if they need. Their is no need to force people to change ropes in the middle of the set. I think that will add to much complication to running the event. Keep it simple.

 

Allow B2 to choose what they would like. I doubt that any of the top B2 skiers would choose the lighter line or be effected in any way by allowing this rope. It just helps keep the smaller, younger and newer skiers to feel more comfortable.

 

The break strength of 1,100 lbs is the ultimate break strength of the rope. 3 ropes were tested and they all broke between 1,050 and 1,100. But the majority of the ropes that we used back in the 80's broke at 1,200. Bob and Kris and other legends skied on these ropes at all the major tournaments. Granted they also threw them away after 10-12 sets, but no B2 is going to pull anywhere need the loads that these guys could generate at the height of their careers.

[ToddL]

@mlusa Thanks again for your support. Does ML have access to a device to test skier loads while in the course? I'm in contact with members of the Technical Committee at AWSA. They are the ones who will determine if B2 can use lightweight ropes. All we need to do is gather skier load data for B2 top skiers at -35 at 34MPH since that is the current limit for the junior ropes. Actually, we should get load data from LL through -39 for B2 skiers and through -38 for G2 skiers. Then, we can confirm or challenge any assumptions that a 1000 lbs rated rope is or isn't safe.

[Than_Bogan]

This is starting to sound pretty close to a no-brainer!

 

The one thing I'd like to add is the lighter ropes really should be available to everyone. I have a good friend who weighs about 90 lbs at 4'11" as an adult. If she were a beginning course skier, a regular line would not suit her well.

 

And I'd still push for these ropes to have some kinda super-obvious distinction from other ropes. Otherwise I am completely certain that I will eventually screw this up at a tournament and accidently have PatM (possibly the hardest pulling guy I know) skiing on the rope meant for a kid! Maybe the 6mm could be neon green and the 8mm could be bright yellow? Obviously I don't care what colors are chosen as long as it's consistent and as obvious as possible.

[JohnN]

I saw a couple of Brenda's light lines last weekend - bright yellow mainline with small take off loops of the correct colors woven in. Light, simple and easy to identify, and shouldn't add that much weight to have loops down to -38 or -39. Pretty cool stuff. If this was pushed through AWSA, they would probably need to decide if it was going to be a mandatory tournament supplied equipment so that competitors could get the same rope advantage/disadvantage regardless of location.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL Are you encountering any real resistance from AWSA or is more just a question of working out all the details and logistics?

 

I ask mainly because I think we could do a bit of a BOS letter-writing campaign if it would help. But if everybody is already think "let's do this" then that would be counter-productive.

[ToddL]

@JohnN - Brenda is pretty set on her rope construction, colors, and format. There just isn't enough revenue to warrant the cost of a change. If there was to be a standard, Masterline would have to converge to Brenda's format or AWSA would have to specify and both Masterline and InTow would have to decide if there is a reason to continue to offer such a rope.

 

@Than - at this point, I am still researching the past and current resistance. I am told that this is the 3rd consecutive request to allow B2 to use the light ropes. I am told that the rules committee generally has no issue with this. However, I am told that the Technical Committee has declined it in the past. I am in touch with one of the current members who personally supports the ideas being raised. The concerns are clearly rope strength/safety given the top end of the B2 skiers. The past requests were denied due to lack of data to ensure skier safety.

 

I am trying to show that there is not a significant difference in risk between top G2 skiers (think Ruth) and the top B2 skiers. Further, I want to survey the B1/B2/G2 skiers to prove that the skiers that concern the Technical Committee do not even want to use the light rope. Therefore, the simple option is all that is needed with no other restrictions.

 

All that said, it is too soon to slam the Technical Committee with excessive pleas to adopt the change. It may backfire if there is no real resistance to the idea now.

I am not sure if this document is current (Chris Rossi said he is no longer on the committee), but the published list of committee members can be found here:

http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/AWSACommittees.pdf#page=6

 

What has changed? I don't know. Maybe the data I provided from the CDC which proves that B2 are no bigger than G2 skiers. Maybe more B2 parents have complained. Maybe more Officials are taking notice of the inconsistency in the B2 restriction. Maybe they are more aware of the realities of the B1 to B2 transition.

 

Also, I want to get them to think differently than in the past... Always consider the converse statements...

Consider for a moment when the G2 and W6+ were allowed option of lightweight ropes. What data was used to make those decisions? Was skier load data required and available? Given the recently offered CDC data, there is not enough significant difference between G2 and B2 divisions in skier size. Skier size is a significant factor in rope loads. So another way to look at this is to ask, "what data is available to show that the B2 skiers at -35 off are generating significantly more load than the G2 & W6+ skiers at the same length?" If there is no data to show a significant difference, then there is no reason to continue to limit B2 from being included in the option of the light rope.

 

So if past denials of B2 junior rope requests were based upon undocumented assumptions that B2 generate significantly more loads which would put junior ropes at risk and lack of data to prove or deny those assumptions, then we need to focus on the facts that we do have:

B2 skiers are the same size as G2 skiers

Junior Ropes currently stop at -35

B2 skiers do ski up to 34MPH, while G2 stop at 32MPH

Adult men elite skiers have been measured at 800 lbs. Anecdotal data suggest anything from 400 to 1,100 for rope tension of adults.

Adults range from 150-200+ lbs in weight.

13 year olds (B2 Skiers) max out at 160 lbs and typically athletic 13 year olds will be 140 or less.

B2 skier loads must be less than to equal to the smaller adult loads which have been measured.

 

 

Unknowns:

Is a 2 MPH difference at -35 be significantly different? Do we have any data which can answer that?

Actual loads by B2 skiers at the Junior Rope shortest loops. - who has a load meter and where are they located?

Survey B2/B1/G2 skiers to get data

 

 

What if we can't get the data? Can we minimize the risk by controlling voluntary selection of the junior ropes?

limits on starting speed usage - apply only to B2

limit the shortening loops to reduce risks - may negatively impact B1/G1/G2/W6+ who currently can use the rope w/o restrictions

 

 

Regarding a Survey of B1/G2/B2 - I would want to gather the following data:

Skier weight,

Skier height,

Skier division,

Skier age,

Rope type used (light/std),

Typical starting rope length / speed,

Typical tournament set finish rope length/speed,

If B2, would the skier switch to Light rope if allowed

 

 

From this we can determine scope of the skier population who is using or wants to use a light rope and thus their demographics. All I need is an agreement from AWSA to send out the survey link to all of these skier members' email addresses. I can create the on-line survey for them...

 

BTW - I have gotten a lot of emails from JD Officials and Parents who support this. BOS + those JD supporters could easily generate a ton of correspondence. Let's hold off until there appears to be continued resistance to discussing meaningful options.

[ToddL]

FYI -

 

G2 Top 5 Buoy Avg Line Speed

1 McCreary, Ruth 92.75 -38 32MPH

2 Austin, Bailey 90.75 -38 32MPH

3 Butterfield, Krista 85.83 -35 32MPH

4 Baldwin, Brooke 85.67 -35 32MPH

5 Breeden, Kelley 85.33 -35 32MPH

All of the above are allowed to use the junior rope...

 

 

 

G1 Top 5 Buoy Avg Line Speed

1 Baldwin, Kristen 76.67 -32 30MPH PB is at -35

2 Jorgensen, Emma 67.83 -28 30MPH

3 Babiash, Kristen 58.00 -15 30MPH

4 Parker, Caroline 54.83 LL 30MPH

5 Hansen, Kennedy 53.83 LL 30MPH

 

 

B1 Top 5 Buoy Avg Line Speed

1 Collins, Austin 69.50 -28 30MPH

2 Scott, Chase 68.75 -28 30MPH

3 Tate, Cooper 67.50 -28 30MPH

4 Fry, Cullen 67.17 -28 30MPH

5 Jones, Lake 66.50 -28 30MPH

These guys will all move to B2 later this year or next... They can't use the junior rope then if we do not act.

 

 

B2 Top 5 Buoy Avg Line Speed

1 Meny, Chad 102.0 -39 34MPH

2 Canepa, Ryan 93.00 -38 34MPH

3 Haines, Quinn 89.33 -35 34MPH

4 Montgomery, Ryan 88.83 -35 34MPH

5 Montavon, William 86.50 -35 34MPH

 

 

Consider this... You have a Top Seed B1 skiing into -28 at 30 MPH on a junior rope. After Nationals, he will have to jump from 30 to 34 and jump from the junior line to the standard rope. He will be crushed due to two significant changes. Imagine if he simply could work on the 30 to 34 MPH change while keeping the known rope. Eventually, he will want to switch as he grows. At least he won't be so deflated that he is asking why bother competing until I am bigger...

[mlusa]

@ToddL@JohnN - Brenda is pretty set on her rope construction, colors, and format. There just isn't enough revenue to warrant the cost of a change. If there was to be a standard, Masterline would have to converge to Brenda's format or AWSA would have to specify and both Masterline and InTow would have to decide if there is a reason to continue to offer such a rope.

We should work on designing the rule around what is best for the sport - not for In Tow. Masterline developed the idea for the junior rope, supplied the break test data and got the rules approved to use it. Now Masterline is expected to "dumb down" our rope to fit Brenda's lack of interest in developing something new because she lacks the capability, will or sales to make it worth her time? She is an assembler, not a manufacturer. We make all of our bulk rope "in house". We are the official rope of USA Water Ski and a current member of WSIA, all of which costs money and supports the industry. Brenda is neither of these. Check WSIA's website for list of active members - http://www.wsia.net/ . WSIA is imperative to the growth of our sport. We should be supporting manufacturer's that support the sport. Masterline sponsors the Masters, World's, World Cup, Nationals, Big Dawg, Ball of Spray advertiser and too many more to name, yet you are suggesting that Masterline converge to what she is offering. I don't think that is the way to go.

 

I am very passionate about the youth skiers and we are committed to developing products that support them. We will work to support USA Water Ski and others to help approve a suitable rope for B2 skiers.

 

Our rope is designed with a significantly different pattern to what our Tournament mainlines are so they won't be confused. Holding them is enough to see the difference. I don't think that there is any worry that it could be confused for the larger rope.

 

I still don't think that the testing of B2/G2 skiers at 38 off is necessary. I don't think that there is any skier at the G2/B2 level running deep shortline slalom that would choose this rope. This is designed to help the little skier run passes. You will find that the skiers like Kristen Baldwin and Cooper Tate will benefit from this rope. They are very small, but running shortline. Skiers like Ruth, running 38 in G2, would be at a significant disadvantage. I think the skiers will sort it out for themselves.

 

We can do some more testing, but I'm confident that none of these skiers will break it. They also won't choose it. Everything will sort itself out based on ability, size of skier and feel of rope. Those that it helps will choose it and they won't be the skiers that push the limit of the rope.

 

If someone has access to a strain gauge let me know, we could test some of the higher end skiers to see what they are doing. Testing Ruth and Bailey in G2 would be enough data in itself.

[ToddL]

@mlusa - Russell, I love your passion on this topic. Please keep it coming! And your support and sponsorship of this sport is without any question! I am very grateful. Your support of juniors is the reason why this topic even exists!

 

My comment was not intended to suggest the solution be ML USA change. Rather, it was just a fact. Consider the last comment that I made: "or AWSA would have to specify and both Masterline and InTow would have to decide if there is a reason to continue to offer such a rope." In this case, I would assume that Masterline would work closely with AWSA on any adjustments to the lightweight rope standard. As such If a change were made, I would expect that the standard would be sensible and feasible. At that point, Both Masterline and InTow would have to decide if they want to offer a compliant rope. Based upon the comments above, I would suspect that InTow would choose to simply drop that rope from their offerings and that Masterline would likely continue to provide a viable rope per the spec.

[ForrestGump]

And if someone could find a strain gauge, I know that Marc and Bailey Austin will be out at Drew's the week before Nationals. It might be an opportunity to get data on Bailey, Neilly, and maybe even Anna?

[JDM]

In my view, anything to facilitate the younger generation of skiers to enjoy the sport is a positive, so if this helps, do it. Don't over rule the kids. I know that is simplistic, but this is supposed to be fun.

[mlusa]

@JDM That's my point exactly. We should just keep it simple. Lets design a rule that allows the kids to use what will help them. This is the 4th season selling this rope and we have never had one returned for warranty because of breaking. All ropes break down and this rope should be changed out more frequently than the standard lines due to UV degradation.

 

If anyone has access to a strain gauge, we can easily do some testing here with many of the best juniors. We could also send it to Texas to get some numbers. It would be interesting to get some data on the top women for comparison and just general knowledge. In the end, the reality will be that the bigger skiers won't choose this rope and we won't have to dictate some crazy rule. As we move forward in the future we can regulate if a problem occurs. Without having any breakage problems in the past 4 seasons, we should be able to feel a little more secure in the integrity of the rope.

 

@ToddL I appreciate your passion to getting this going. I would like to see B2 use the rope and do whatever helps get the beginner and smaller kids over the threshold to become successful. So many get frustrated easily and are done before they can appreciate skiing. It takes so much time to get to a proficient level. Once they can run the course they feel good about themselves and will continue to try and get more. When they are getting yanked out the front it's not so much fun. This is such a simple fix to help these kids.

 

I'm happy to help and I would like to see AWSA develop a rule that makes sense. I just don't want to build my rope to the specs of another company because of their limitations. They can buy bulk rope from us to these specs if they need.

[Chef23]

@Brent do you sleep?

[MAD11]

@mlusa

Bailey says she is glad to help you test whatever you need although she wouldn't want to use the smaller rope in tournaments. She is 5'7", 117lbs now and doesn't even turn 14 until late December.(Really bad ski birthday, but we did get an extra year tax break I guess) Not sure the small rope would be good for her.

 

Masterline has given the sport and her unprecedented support and service. It's your products at our house. Period! Plus if I don't get her stuff from Anna's dad I'm in trouble she says.(Amazing how our names disappear and we just become someone's dad. Sorry Russell) She loves that handle with the webbed guard built in you made for her.

 

I'm sure Joe would consider having Ruth test also. Both girls into at least purple everyday. Been fun to watch. Both their averages are higher than what is listed above now. Data would be interesting too. Their styles are fairly different.

[ForrestGump]

@Baileysdad I've changed your name in my phone now, too. :)

 

[mlusa]

@MAD11 If we can come up with a strain gauge we can test Ruth and Bailey on the normal rope to see how much they are pulling. I'm not sure what this does for the junior rope, because none of these types of skiers are going to use it. They will opt up before they get to this level and have a chance of putting this much stress on the rope. It will tell us how much stress they would put if accidentally skiing on the small rope which I doubt will be come close to the max break strength.

[ToddL]

@MAD11 - Hey, Bailey's Dad... Thanks for the support! I agree with @mlusa (Anna's Dad) that the strain gauge results on the standard rope would be the same expected loads that the lightweight rope would experience.

 

Given a year with G2 having the option and no reported incidents, we can assume that most advanced G2's are voluntarily selecting the standard rope and/or the lightweight rope is sufficiently capable for those opting to use it. .

 

Given the CDC size data, we can all conclude that skier size/weight is not a reason to allow G2 vs. B2 to have the option of the lightweight rope. The only difference would be the difference in load due to the 3 KPH max speed difference.

 

There really isn't anything more to discuss which could be applicable.

 

The simple solution is to add B2 to the list of divisions allowed the option - no further restrictions or complexity needed.

 

 

 

[Horton]

I will have Richelle get right on it

[Drago]

AGREED! The discussion is a giant circle. Simply let B2 athletes and their parents make an educated decision. My soon to be B2 weighs 70 pounds. He loves the kids' rope. Why test his love of the sport? Going from 30mph to 34 overnight is quite enough

[ToddL]

Now, I am told that last year, both the Rules Committee and the Technical Committee recommended passage of adding B2 to the list of divisions where a lightweight tow rope was an allowed option, but that it was the AWSA BOD which rejected the B2 group's inclusion.

 

[klindy]

What was the BOD rationale for saying no?

[ToddL]

@klindy - I have inquired to find that out. I am waiting on a response.

[ToddL]

So I just looked at the Nationals Boat Draw for 2012.

http://www.usawaterski.org/nationals/nationals/BoatDraw.html

Slalom

MasterCraft: G3, W3, W7-11, M9-11, OW, B2, M2, M4

Nautique: W2, W5, W6, B1, B3, M5, M7-M8, MM

Malibu: G1, G2, W1, W4, M1, M3, M6, OM

[ToddL]

Just a quick update... It looks like AWSA will attempt to capture load measurements during the upcoming towboat tests.

[ToddL]

Just for fun, here is a video of my son skiing at practice. (He is still using the lightweight rope during practice.)

 

The video is very shaky due to a loose mount on the camera/trakker. I tried the YouTube enhancement to fix this, but that made the video squished, then stretched, etc. So, I have put the videos back to the original version, shakes and all.

 

Opening pass: 19mph, -15, light rope

 

Second pass: 21mph, -15, light rope

 

[MAD11]

@ToddL

Good to see some Frameswitch video. Should have shown him dodging the cow that is usually in the water around the turn island. Bet the light rope would make that move easier. I had to ski around the cow one year and lift the rope over it before coming in at 38. Place is always fun, but hot.

[ToddL]

@MAD11 The cows are now rated officials.

[MAD11]

@toddl Nice!

[Horton]

@ToddL

So after all this talk, has anyone written a formal proposal for the BOD and or rules committee?

I confess I have only skimmed this thread.

 

[MAD11]

Change a rule? I thought we were talking about using cows as buoys? Real issue at frameswitch. Not makin that up man.

[ToddL]

@MAD11 The cows came out for Tx St Championships and were asking where you were. They were in position to cut your gates...

[ToddL]

@Horton - The proposal is drafted. It has been informally discussed with key members of the technical committee, one of whom is addressing it with the BOD. Formal amendment will be submitted this week. Key issues are simply:

Gather load data on B2/G2 - rumored to be planned at Boat Tests

How to confirm that the light rope is safely used for B2

 

Key point of the proposal:

CDC data show G2 bigger/same as B2

G2 allowed option w/o load data

Allow B2 the option simply given G2 option

If load data is desired do not hold up B2 option pending elusive testing

Survey G2/B2 to see age/size who would select the lighter rope option - confirm lack of risks

 

[ntx]

We had a B1 skier break his light rope at our tourn yesterday.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

NTX - Several very important clarifications lest people get the idea that light ropes are weak - that rope was:

 

1) skier supplied

2) 4 years old

3) NOT made by a ski rope manufacturer

4) badly frayed from being run over by an un-named boat driver

5) just hoping to make it another 3 weeks

 

[ToddL]

@Bruce - very important clarifications!

[Than_Bogan]

@ntx

 

Bruce's details aren't just important -- they 100% alter the take-home message. Please try to be more careful to avoid extremely misleading posts. (I'm just gonna assume that "spin" wasn't intentional.)

[elr]

Do the light ropes meet the IWSF breakage and stretch specs? I don't think you can look at one end of the spectrum of skiers without looking at the other. I remember my son's first tournament in B2 (he weighed less than 60 lbs) after he took a look at one of the other boys in his division he turned to me and said "dad he has a beard." B2 kids at the other end of the spectrum run short line at 36 MPH in IB.

[ToddL]

@elr The IWSF rules state that the rope must bear a 590 kg load. That equates to 1300 lbs. The AWSA lightweight rope rule requires 454 kg (1,000 lbs). The AWSA standard rope requires 817 kg (1,800 lbs).

 

The great thing about this proposal, is that is DOES NOT DISADVANTAGE the top skiers in the junior divisions. They have an OPTION of a lighter rope, not a requirement. Thus, if they are concerned with IWSF ranking, they can simply choose the AWSA compliant standard rope and any performances which would qualify for any IWSF recognition will still be viable.

 

 

FYI... Google is your friend easy to find both rule books for inquiries.

http://www.iwsf.com/rules/2012/World%20rules%202012-1.pdf

www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/2012AWSARuleBook.pdf

 

 

IWSF, pg 20:

10.04: Tow Lines

The Tournament Committee shall furnish single-handle 23 m and 18.25 m tow lines constructed as in (d) below, made of 6 mm., single braided, monofilament line of plastic material, with the handles and lines meeting the following specifications:

a) Number of Strands = 12

Minimum Number of Yarns each strand = 60

Minimum Diameter at 5.5 kg. load = 6.3 mm.

Weight per meter: 23.0 grams/meter maximum

Breaking load, minimum = 590 kg.

 

AWSA, pg 27-28:

8.04 Tow Lines

The Tournament Committee shall furnish tow lines constructed as in 8.04.C below

with the lines and handles meeting the following specifications:

 

A. Weight per foot, maximum = 23 g/m (.250 oz.)

Breaking Load, minimum = 817 kg (1,800 lbs.)

Elongation at 115 kg (250 lbs.) tensile load, 2.6% +/- 0.4%

The gauge length shall be set at 5.5 kg (12 lbs.) tensile load

 

Optional: Light Towlines for B1, G1, G2, W6 and above only

Weight per foot, maximum = 23g/m (.250 oz.)

Breaking Load, minimum = 454 kg (1,000 lbs.)

Elongation at 115 kg (250 lbs.) tensile load, 4.0% +/- 0.5%

The gauge length shall be set at 5.5 kg (12 lbs.) tensile load

[ToddL]

Further, based upon the above info, the current B1 top seed's scores are invalid at IWSF due to the skier's choice of the option. I suspect that is also the case for the top G1 skier(s). Maybe in regards to junior division competition, we need to think of this as AWSA is leading the way and IWSF is slow to catch up...

[elr]

@ToddL - thanks for the links I already have both rule books on my computer. Just wanted you to see that the light line doesn't meet either the IWSF breakage or elongation standards - and be able to address those facts in any proposal you may have. I don't know that I would like being the boat judge or driver when the "bearded" B2 competitor is trying to hold on to three ball at 34/-39 with a light line. Don't know that I would like to be the B2 record holder that whose record gets topped by a competitor using a light line either. I just think that consideration needs to be given to both sides of the bell curve.

[ToddL]

@elr I think numerous people have commented that older or short-line B2 skiers do not want to exercise the option of using the light line.

Are you afraid of the Big or Top G2 skiers? They currently pose a risk to your boat judging safety... ANY G2 skier can attempt -38 off on a light line and there is nothing you can do about it, since it is completely allowed per current AWSA.

 

But, there is fear of the unknown (and the unlikely). Wow...

Let's not write rules based upon fears. Let's investigate and become educated. I've offered/suggested that AWSA survey the 300 B2/G2 skiers' parents to find out how many BIG B2/G2 skiers would actually request a light rope. I suspect none over 110 lbs. But hey, let's find out!

 

Bottom Line - this is all that matters:

AWSA must protect its behind from liability. Older and Shortline B2 competitors scare AWSA (and @elr).

A SIGNIFICANT MAJORITY or folks agree (INCLUDING AWSA Rules Committee and TECHNICAL Committee) that younger, under max speed B2 skiers should have the option of a light line just like G2 skiers.

G2 skiers (which are statistically BIGGER than B2 skiers) can use the light line at -38+ off per current AWSA rules

 

This is just all so ridiculously simple to me. I guess I'm just biased too much.

 

If there must be a black and white rule to prevent the Big and Advanced B2/G2 skiers from using the light line, then let's focus on that... My proposal to address that concern is quite simple...

B2 Skier shows up at the starting dock requesting a light line and a starting speed of 23 MPH or less - OK No problem. Unlikely to be a big guy and unlikely to get into short line.

B2 Skier shows up at the starting dock requesting a light line and a starting speed of 24.9 or faster - NOPE! Hand him a standard rope.

EASY as can be! Heck, they should add this for G2, too!

 

PS: @elr - I do appreciate your opposing viewpoints. It does make us all think more about what is at stake. I hope you don't mind me having a little fun with your comments.

[elr]

@ToddL - no worries. I like the light line @ LL and -15 up to max speed - you may want to consider re-casting your proposal from that perspective as opposed to start speed. And, yes I think a handle hit from Tyler Scott (when he was a B2 at 34/-39) hurts just as much as a handle hit from Chad Scott going the same speed/line and the risk could be excerbated with a rope that stretches more. I've been around highly competitive athletes for a long time and they will use ANYTHING within the rules they feel will give them an advantage. A national record is highly prized.

[Drago]

A streatchy rope is not an advantage. Two kids got into "shortline" in b1 at our tournament Saturday. One weighs in at 60 lbs soaking wet(2 1/2@28) the other weighs 70 after a big lunch(1@22). Let's say they gain 10 lbs by next season, ok, even 20: are you seriously afraid they will hurt you with a handle pop?

[ToddL]

@elr said, "I've been around highly competitive athletes for a long time and they will use ANYTHING within the rules they feel will give them an advantage. A national record is highly prized."

 

True. But you assume that a light line is an advantage to a B2 skier who is truly competitive at a national title/record level. That's the part I disagree with.

 

The only place it serves as an advantage is with the lightest weight skiers skiing at slow speeds and incapable of maintaining a sufficient tension on a standard rope to keep it out of the water during a normal amount of "free from the boat" slack leading into a turn. (I can't speak to the issues/advantages/disadvantages of the B1 top skiers who are skiing into -35 on a light line...)

[elr]

I guess we will just have to disagree - I do think that some B2 skier will figure out how to use the up to 6 inches of extra rope @ -39.5 the light line offers at current 4.0% elongation specs. I also believe that if you are shortening beyond -15 at max speed your line isn't dragging the water.

 

Another solution would be to have manufacturers formulate a light line that meets the 2.6% elogation spec.