Should B2 slalom skiers be allowed to use the light/junior ropes?

[ToddL]

G2 & W6+ can use one. There is no specification about skier weight. So why can't a 60 lb B2 use one? Seems it is more unsafe with that heavy rope catching in the water for the younger, smaller B2 guys...

[RichardDoane]

G1, B1, W6+ could all benefit, but it's mainly beneficial to long line and -15 slower speed skiers, but there are some B2 and G2 skiers into the shorter lines where it's not necessary

[ToddL]

@richarddoane Agree. So why not make it optional for those B2 who ski LL or slower just like the other divisions? FYI, G2 already are allowed the choice of standard or lighter ropes. Same for G1, B1, and W6+. Why not include B2? Either skier weight is the concern or assumption of average speed in these divisions. So what if there is a 140 lb G2? She is allowed a choice of ropes. Why not the 60 lb B2 kid?

[ForrestGump]

@Toddl Our EVP told us it's because none of the rope companies have provided any test data. If they make it optional for let's say a sub 60lb B2 skier, then the judge(awsa) who allows it would assume liability in event of an even if the skier told them their weight. He also commented that it didn't make any sense to him considering you could have a 140lb G2 skier as you say.

[Horton]

Maybe the cut off should be based on skier weight? Someone tell Richelle to get right on that.

[Than_Bogan]

If there's a way we can make entry into our sport more friendly, and that has no effect on those of us who are already addicts, it seems a no-brainer.

 

However, my concerns would be:

1) How do we make sure we have one at the tournament? Personally, I'm fine with kids bringing their own long line ropes. Do I care if somebody brings an 80 foot rope to try to get some perceived advantage at long line? No, I do not.

2) Safety. Obviously I don't want anyone to use a rope that isn't strong enough!

[disland]

Our rules are too complicated as it is, next thing you know I will have to hire someone to certify our dock scales for skier weigh ins. I just spent $450 to get our lake surveyed. The buoys are attached to anchors in the bottom, Unless there was some kind of seismic shift they didnt move since last year. We do all this mostly because our ruling bodies require class L scores for junior tournaments like the Jr US Open and Jr masters not because anyone is going to break a world record.

[Than_Bogan]

@disland: I'm venturing way off this thread's subject now, but here in New England is quite common for stuff to move, usually as a result of ice. There's also a lot of very soft bottoms. Most invidual-anchor courses are resureyed every year even for Class C usage, because there's almost always some adjustments that turn out to be required!

[Kelvin]

On the light ropes, there are clearly some smaller B2 skiers that would benefit and I support that. Looking at the G2 skiers where ALL skiers have the option of using the lighter ropes, the higher end skiers getting into shorter line lengths (15 off and shorter) choose to use the normal rope. It is only the beginner skiers skiing at longline that want the lighter ropes. I believe the same would be true for B2 skiers. It could easily be limited by weight or limited to longline skiing only and make everyone happy.

[Kelvin]

Than, down here in the south our course was installed with concrete anchors secured to the clay bottom with Re-bar in 2004. We have surveyed the courses the last 3 years and they still meet the R/C tolerances with no course maintenance on the anchors.

[ForrestGump]

@kelvin Same here. We set our concrete anchors with rebar in 2001. Have never moved, except when we drained the lake and moved some on purpose.

[ToddL]

Oh, please no! No scales on the dock! Too complicated and completely unnecessary. As @Kelvin said, G2 skiers naturally desire standard ropes as they progress past long line and higher speeds. The safety concern is not really warranted. Plus, the population that this targets are unlikely to even qualify for regionals... @Than, the junior ropes are $45. If you have G1, G2, or B1, then you likely already have one on site at the event. People can share. Likely, mommy and daddy already have bought one for their little darling. Do we need to test these per AWSA? Probably. But, a simple act of visually comparing it to an a available std rope should suffice. Rules are always overly complex to ensure fair competition and integrity of our sport's results. This is a good thing when applied in the areas of records and national competition. But small, younger B2 skiers aren't likely skiing at that level. Solutions to these concerns? No records allowed in B2 with lighter rope. Maybe even, only allowed for long line use.

[Drago]

'cept it's not merely an LL issue. It's all those knots down to 45 off that make the rope heavy. I sense by you Mommy and daddy comment that u have no kids (?)

[RichardDoane]

@toddl - you could make the lighter line a "skier supplied" rope that just needs to be length checked by the Chief Judge, just like some jumpers do with their own personal ropes, that puts the liability on the skier should the rope have an issue.

[ToddL]

@Drago poking fun at myself. I have an 11 yo son who can't keep std rope out of the wakes... So, he has stopped skiing tournaments since moving to B2. The few attempts he has made with the std rope have been harrowing. One caused a nasty OTF. Obviously I'm for making light ropes optional for B2 just like it is for G2.

[MattP]

@skimom work your magic get this kid back in tournaments!

[ToddL]

The simply solution is to ad B2 to the existing list of divisions where the lighter rope is an allowed option. I can only guess at the top reasons why AWSA would not want to do this. I assume they are 1) safety, and 2) fairness. Safety is problematic in that we all want to just say skiers under a specified weight are allowed to use the lighter rope, but we all know that we don't want to start weighing skiers at tournaments.

 

My amazingly smart wife had an idea...

The real target audience that we are trying to segment is the lower-level skiers from the higher-level skiers. We need a way to do this without adding complexity to the rules and without making the dock/boat crew's job absurd. The rope weight issue is magnified at slower speeds for lighter skiers. Lighter skiers who are skiing into shortline have significantly less of an issue with a standard rope. However, we cannot predict whether a skier will ski into shortline on any given tournament set.

The solution is to specify a starting speed threshold. Shortline skiers in B2 are very unlikely to start at significantly slower speeds. For example, if the rule stated 24MPH as the threshold, then any B2 skier who's starting speed was at or below 24 MPH would be allowed the option of using the lighter rope. If a skier requests a starting speed above 24, then they must use a standard rope. This is easy to manage and resolve at the start of the tournament set and by the dock/boat crew.

 

This idea probably also addresses fairness since these skiers starting at the slower speeds aren't impacting the upper levels of the B2 competitive field.

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL I like that direction. I think we can and should make this work. We just have to be a little intelligent.

 

My not-very-well-thought-out proposal would be:

 

A) Allow skier-supplied rope, but only for long line. (Option available to all divisions.)

B) Don't even bother to measure it. You wanna do long-line runs with a 90 foot rope? Be my guest. Frankly, I bet that's harder. But in any case it just doesn't matter to me: it's all about giving a newbie some positive tournament experience. When they start working on -15, they'll switch to the tournament (measured) rope anyhow.

C) Cover legal ass with appropriate wording in the release about how skier assumes responsibility for safety of all equipment he/she supplies. (I suspect this is already in there.)

D) No records on skier-supplied rope (a total non-issue in my proposal since there are no records at long-line, but it might make some people more comfortable to have that in writing).

[elr]

This seems like the perfect place for running a Class F group [could be for one skier] within or in conjunction with your Class C or above tournament.

[ToddL]

Some tournament hosts do not offer class F. Class C is not reserved for only those running shoreline. Nor is Class C only reserved for adults. Class C clearly allows for junior skiers skiing below max speed. Thus, extending the lighter rope option to B2 should not be so much of an issue. Much of the discussion here is in anticipation of the potential concerns against the use of a lighter rope, which is perfectly legal per current AWSA rules for G2, B1, G1, and W6+.

[ToddL]

Further Class F keeps the skier's scores off the ranking list. Junior skier's love to see themselves in that list, even if they are in the bottom group. It is validation that their performance matters, even at their level.

[Drago]

ToddL: gotcha. This sport has to lighten up, literally, and let the kids have some fun.

[cwillygood]

i think that once you get to max speed, it is not needed, but for lighter kids learning, idk, i never used a lighter rope in boys 2, or even boys 1

[LeonL]

@toddl, that's the most sane and easily enforced solution I've seen (start speed determines line used).

[JohnN]

I'm all for light lines with smaller kids through B2/G2, we just need a standard for a light line so that they can all be quickly and easily identified when going from lake to lake. We ran into the situation this weekend where we had to re-run a division when a light line (white with shortening loops) was used and didn't come off the dock. It mixed in with the tourney lines for G3 and the dock starter just used what was on the dock as they switched classes. Felt weird and spongy enough to bring a number of comments and protests from different competitors who got that rope.

 

I like Than's suggestion, but (and we did run into this in tourneys), when a kid has a breakout day and runs max speed you then have to switch ropes in the middle of the set with a long line only scenario. Instead, I suggest the handle to first loop section needs to be bright yellow or something so it's immediately obvious to everyone when a light line is in play and the skier can still start at 15off if they want.

 

John

[LeonL]

As far as I've seen they're pretty easy to identify just by diameter. I can't conceive of a dock starter mistakenly using a light line for G3, there is just too much difference in appearance. Again the suggestion that the starting speed (maybe a max of 24) be the determining factor is the best I've seen.

[JoeMac]

Agree. Once they get up to there max speed they should be on the normal ski rope. Only advantage is at long line.

[JohnN]

Just saying it happened and light lines can take many different forms and diameters since there is no standard. Start speed/finish speed, etc. would add another element to the competition. As a worker, I'm more concerned about keeping it simple, having the rope not be used when it's not intended, and identifying it easily when it is in use. FWIW, this hadn't been an issue previously as all the light lines were essentially bright yellow or bright red jump lines, and we've been running light lines for 5 yrs or more.

 

Back on topic, light lines and wide slaloms increased the number of smaller kids having fun at our tournaments, and if that helps the smaller or newer B2 skiers to enjoy the sport, that's great!

[ToddL]

I would not want the rules to reflect switching out a rope once the skier runs his or her max speed. Just continue with the rope they started with.

 

Note Max speeds:

G1&B1: 30mph (49kph). A 24.9 start speed would be 4 passes to max speed.

G2: 32mph (52kph). A 24.9 start speed would be 5 passes to max speed.

B2: 34mph (55kph). A 24.9 start speed would be 6 passes to max speed.

 

This, for B2, the risk is that a skier starts at 23 mph and skis 7 passes to run his max speed at LL, then continues at short line... I think this will be very rare. Thus, skiers who are likely skiing past their max speed will be starting faster than 24.9mph. Even the G1&B1 skiers would have to ski 5 passes to get past their max speed if the 24.9mph starting speed rule was universal for these divisions. Again, I think that would be rare.

 

I know kids can sometimes ski 8+ passes in a set. But typically this is when they are starting at very slow speeds, like 19mph. So, again the chance that such a skier is on a light line at max speed is extremely low.

[ToddL]

@JohnN I think a standard, like yellow handle section, would be a great addition to this proposed solution to making light lines available to B2 skiers. Anything that makes compliance with rules easier on both the officials and the skiers is a welcome idea.

[ToddL]

I asked around informally at the SCR Junior Development Tournament. Most B2 skiers who were under 100 lbs would use a light weight "junior" rope. Most B2 skiers above 100 lbs prefer the standard rope. Officials and parents at the event also agreed that the youngest and smallest B2 skiers are at risk of being hurt if they attempt to ski LL and slow speeds using a standard rope. Most people thought that the proposed starting speed rule for lightweight ropes made sense and was the easiest solution to enforce/implement by tournament officials.

[ToddL]

I've gone some research that challenges many false assumptions about size and weight of B2/G2 skiers... Check this out!

 

The standard for growth charts is the CDC charts. The youngest age for B2 is 10 years old. The national average weight and height of a 10 year old boy is 70 lbs and 4' 6", respectively. The top age of G2 is 13 years old. The national average weight and height of a 13 year old girl is 101 lbs and 5' 2". The maximum on the growth chart for 13 yo girls is 159 lbs (97th percentile). The minimum weight for 10 yo boy is 53 lbs. (3rd percentile). So, Current rules allow this nearly 160-pound girl to use a light weight rope with no restrictions whatsoever, but prohibit this boy 53-pound boy from doing so.

 

This does not make sense, and it is inconsistent.

 

Further, let's address the assumption that the oldest B2 skiers are too big for a light weight rope. Currently, that 13-yo, 97th-percentile G2 skier at 159 lbs can use the lightweight rope without any restrictions. The growth chart's 97th percentile for a 13yo B2 is 155 lbs; that's less than the girls! The average for both boys and girls at 13 year of age is 101 lbs! To restate this more clearly, the data show that 13 year old boys are the same or lighter than 13 year old girls. So, the assumption that G2 should be allowed to use the lighter rope because they are smaller is false. Further the assumption that the largest B2 skiers are significantly bigger than the largest G2 skiers is also false. This is not based upon an opinion but is confirmed using standardized and statistically-significant data samples of children's ages and sizes.

 

Thus,if skier weight is the concern and if G2 is allowed the option to use lightweight tow lines then all of B2 skiers should also be allowed to do so. End of discussion.

 

 

 

(source: http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/2000growthchart-us.pdf, PDF pages 38-41)

[ToddL]

FYI - This is confirmed at the young end of the B2/G2 division. 10 year old boys and girls are the same or the boys are just barely lighter than the girls per the CDC charts.

 

Executive Summary:

CDC Growth Charts show that 10-13 year old boys (B2) are the same weight or lighter than 10-13 year old girls (G2). Thus, if skier weight is the significant concern when determining who can use a light towrope, there is no reason to allow G2 to have the option and exclude B2.

 

[ScaredOfCorbets]

First the parents 'should' not allow their kids to ski very short line with the Junior rope. But I imagine that some will try to squeeze every ounce if advantage over others.

 

Since the junior line's primary benefit is for light skier at long line; and short line skier tend to go with the standard ropes. Then it would seem that another simple solution is to limit the junior rope to 22 off. The parent/kid make the rope decision before hopping into the water. To me, it's not likely that a kid 'needs' to ski long line will get into 28 off.

[ToddL]

I wonder if B1/G1 skiers would need a light towrope that goes beyond -28. Currently, the Masterline Junior rope goes to -35. Thus, we want to avoid having a special rope for B1/G1, and then a different special rope for B2/G2...

[Than_Bogan]

I guess I still think it's easiest to limit it to long-line. Yes, every so often you'll have to change ropes on a guy who just ran his top speed, probably for the first time ever. But I think it makes it far simpler for judges to do the right thing if these light ropes simply don't have shortening loops on them. I am a huge fan of making it nearly impossible to screw up, because otherwise I WILL.

[Kelvin]

I have never seen a kid use the light rope and shorten it past long-line. If they are shortening the rope, they don't need the light rope.

[ToddL]

I think there is the once in a blue moon event where a smaller skier will start below max speed, ski a PB and end up at -15 or possibly even a half buoy at -22 at a tournament. That's why I like the idea that the starting speed be the governing rule. If set low enough, it will nearly eliminate this possibility. Think about it... If the starting speed limit were set to say, 23 MPH, a B2 skier would have to run 6 passes to just get to 34 MPH.

1- 23 LL

2- 24.9 LL

3- 26.7 LL

4- 28.6 LL

5- 30.4 LL

6- 32.3 LL

7- 34.2 LL

8- -15 off

etc.

 

Heck, I don't care if the skier wants to ski at -15 from the start on a junior rope. It shouldn't matter if they are starting at a sufficiently slow speed.

1- 23 -15

2- 24.9 -15

3- 26.7 -15

4- 28.6 -15

5- 30.4 -15

6- 32.3 -15

7- 34.2 -15

8- -22 off

etc.

 

I still think this is a 1-in-a-million skier who can run all of that in a tournament set. Most likely the skier who is looking to PB at -15 is also starting at a speed closer to 28 or above.

 

And keep in mind, the G2 skiers can use it legally in any tournament at any line length at their max speed. G2 skiers' max speed is 32.3, but they also weigh the same as the boys 2 skiers. So, tell me this... How is it completely OK to let a 100+ lb G2 skier ski at -35 off on a junior rope, but there is so muck risk with B2 that we can't even come up with a solution to let the young B2 skiers use the junior rope safely??

 

It just does not seem consistent.

 

[ToddL]

Also, we aren't even addressing the fact that W6+ can use the "junior" rope at any speed and line length. I know some W6+ aged women who could easily break a lightweight rope. Why is it OK to give them the option, but not B2?

[MattP]

@toddL write a detailed proposal for a rule change and have your region rep present it at the next rules meeting.

Sounds like you have a good case

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL On that second point, that probably isn't OK!

 

Just to play devil's advocate, let me make my case for LL-only: The main advantage of this approach would be the near-impossibility of doing something wrong or dangerous.

 

If a rope has shortening loops on it, instinct is gonna be to shorten it. If it doesn't, and the rule is LL-only, then the rule is self-enforcing: you simply can't do it wrong.

 

This completely eliminates the concern of accidentally using the light line for a heavier skier. You go to set it at -15 off and "hey wait a second, there's no red on this rope -- oh this is the light line!"

 

The main downsides are:

1) Skier desiring light line can't do -15. I think that's fine, but I don't currently have a child at this point, so maybe I'm forgetting something here.

2) Every so often you'll have to change a rope right in the middle of somebody's round. Mildly annoying, but I think an acceptable downside for the protection-from-concentration-lapses offered above.

 

 

[MattP]

Or how about only having a LL and 15 off section on the rope just in case. Past 15 I guess they should use the regular rope

[ToddL]

@MattP - yes. I have the amendment form and I am drafting some proposals for the committee. FYI - I am told that this has been requested repeatedly and the technical committee still has some concerns. However, in the past they changed to allow B1/G1. Then, they added W6+ and G2. So, as new information is presented, they consider it and are willing to adjust accordingly. I think they see the benefit, but need to protect AWSA from fault and genuinely ensure skier safety. Thus, I am confident that a solution is completely feasible. I just wish I could be there to help them talk through the concerns and fully consider the many solutions until the best one is identified.

 

@Than Bogan - I think LL is a no-brainer for G2/B2 kids. I just worry that B1/G1 and W6+ skiers may need those take-off loops. Currently, there are two rope standards (normal & lightweight). We can modify the lightweight standard without fully considering all skiers who are currently allowed to use one. Again, we want to keep it simple.

 

A starting speed based-rule will allow that skier to ski 7+ passes and possibly get into shortline on a junior rope. However, that will be very rare. I don't like the idea of having to change ropes mid set. Thus, a starting speed would be sufficient to nearly eliminate that possibility.

 

[Than_Bogan]

@MattP I'm not saying I have a serious problem with that idea, because I don't.

 

However, it does eliminate a level of idiot-proofing, because there are usually a good number of skiers at a tournament who are starting at -15. If it's a long-line with no loops, then it's almost impossible to accidentally use that rope for the wrong person.

[ToddL]

FWIW, B1/G1 and G6+ records are all 12M (-35) or longer ropes. G2 records are at 11.25 (-38). B2 records are at 10.75 (-39.5). Simple wording would be that no record can stand if set on a light weight rope.

 

[mlusa]

First of all, Masterline's Jr. rope has a break strength of approximately 1,100 lbs. No B1, B2 or W6 skiers are going to break it. The number 1 W6 skier has an avg of 4 @32 off at 32mph and they are not pulling anywhere near 1,000 lbs.

 

Secondly, the skier's that are running any shoreline in W6 aren't going to choose the smaller rope because they will feel it to be a disadvantage because of the stretch.

 

The better and/or stronger skier is going to choose the larger 10mm rope. The lightweight longer line skiers are going to want the lighter rope.

 

20 years ago, everyone skied on ropes with a 1,200 lbs break strength. That includes Bob and Kris Lapoint etc. No need for rules, let the skiers decide. Open these divisions up to allow skiers to bring their own rope. Anything to encourage more, not less participation. Maybe it's only psychological, but if it's an approved brand that meets the specs, why not?

 

Background for Jr ropes:

 

Masterline developed the jr rope when my kids, the Baldwins and Neilly Ross started running the course at 5-6 years old. They all skied together, all were very small and we saw the difference immediately with all of the kids. For a 5 or 6 year old that weighs 35-40lbs and trying to run 20 mph, the standard slalom rope can be dangerous. It dips and catches the water as they round the buoy and then yanks them off the edge as they approach the 1st wake, putting the skier in a very bad position.

 

Anna is now running 32 off in practice at 32 mph and weighs about 75 lbs. She has been using an 8mm rope that is in between the Jr. Rope (5mm) and the 10mm standard slalom line. Just before Team Trials, she started skiing 34 mph. In her first set out at 34 she ran 28 off. Then we realized that she was on the smaller rope. It took her 6 sets to finally run 28 off after switching from the 8mm line to the standard. The first couple of sets she could run any pass. So it clearly makes a difference even at 28 and 32 for the smaller skiers.

 

The Jr. rope that we sell has a break strength of approximately 1,100 lbs. I don't know anyone that would "want" to use this rope that could break it. As the skier gets bigger, stronger and skis shorter line lengths, they will prefer an 8mm or 10mm rope. The skier running 32 or 35 off at 34mph is not going to prefer the Jr. rope. The idea for the rope is to help the lightweight skier from taking hard falls and progressing. I don't think that there has to be a cut off for B2. I don't think that there are any B2 skiers that can break it. The top skiers won't want to use it because it will feel to soft to them. The ones that are borderline can make that choice if it will help or hurt. I don't think it has to have a cut off for weight or ability. Anna won't use the Jr. rope that we sell because it feels too stretchy for her. I think that is the progression that you will find in reality. The beginner skier, skiing longer line lengths will prefer the smaller rope. The more advanced will want the standard 10 mm rope or something in between.

 

Any way, the point is that these ropes are strong enough that they won't break for these age divisions. If there was a skier that was large enough and had enough leverage, they would never choose this rope. They will have an advantage with the bigger, stiffer rope.

 

We should also do away with the shock tubes for the 1 and 2 divisions. They are useless for these divisions and just get in the way for the shorter, lightweight skiers.

 

Russell Gay

Masterline USA, Inc.

http://www.masterlineusa.com

[klindy]

Russell, just a clarification - Do the "break strength" numbers above include a safety factor as well or are those best defined as "ultimate break strength"? I ask because generally there's an additional safety factor applied as well which could mean the ultimate load is significanly higher. Since I assume you guys have some test data you'd know.

[ToddL]

From Matthew Leach (B2, 11 years old, 75 lbs, 4' 8"):

"The standard rope is very unsafe because I get a lot of slack but I would not with the lightweight rope. When I get slack, I get a very hard hit and almost go out the front. The rope is bouncing up and down and gets caught in the water. At my first tournament as B2 skier, the rope caught in the water and I went out the front so hard that I got whiplash. After that I didn't want to ski in Class C tournaments any more. I was afraid to ski, too."

 

[klindy]

All valid points @ToddL. One thought, the shortening loops add about 18-24" of rope PER loop. So loops for 15-*say* 38 off (6 loops) would effectively add 12-20% more rope (and the corresponding weight) to the rope. If the battle is to keep the rope light enough to help it stay out of the water for LL skiers I would think fewer loops are better than more.

[ToddL]

@klindy - good point. FYI - my son tried a jump rope (meets the standards for a LL slalom rope) which of course has no loops. It still bounced and waved enough to make contact with the water. So, while reducing the number of loops removed a good amount of material and weight, the primary weight of the fundamental rope is still a factor above 60 feet in length. Someone on site commented about spectra, but many trick skiers refuse to use a completely spectra rope due to the lack of any stretch and the perceived safety risks. So that doesn't seem like a viable solution either.