Handle guard / Arm Guard

[McGruder]

I've heard/read a number of comments concerning the potential of a handle guard or Arm Guard creating a worse situation in the event of poking your arm between the handle and the guard and it not coming out very easily because of the restricted opening. I have an Arm Guard and it seems that such a scenario would be tough since getting the fingers through the guard is easy, but getting a hand through it would be tough - not impossible, but much more difficult than a head or arm through a yolk without a guard in place. Is there anyone out there that has caught their hand or arm through a guard and ended up with any kind of injury because you could not get the hand/arm out because of the guard being in place? If so, what kind or guard were you using?

 

I do feel the zip ties might be better replaced using a bungee type alternative, but I have not done that and don't know how well it would work. Comments on that are welcome as well.

[jedgell]

Even if your hand gets in between the handle and guard it won't go past your forearm. At least not on mine. The zip ties are good because that opening can't expand, like it could with bungees. The zip ties break off occasionally, but they're easy to replace.

[McGruder]

Good point on the zip ties vs the bungee.

[jimbrake]

@McGruder - whoever is saying that is spouting completely unfounded bullshit. If you've ever put your arm through a handle and had it ripped back out (I have), you (meaning anyone, not pointing a finger at you specifically) would understand the power involved and know that if you had an Arm Guard on our handle, it is going to have basically zero effect on your arm coming back out. That's just some naysayer that doesn't want to put a guard on their handle for whatever lame reason. Yes, it's not 100% certain that you won't put your arm though with a guard in place, but it's a lot less likely than with no guard at all. Getting stuck in the handle because of an Arm Guard is just wrong thinking.

[HO 410]

Action/Reaction.

 

If you make the panel more flexible, to make it a little bit easier for your hand to get out, you also make it easier for your hand to get past the panel. Taken to an extreme, a panel that should be deflecting your punching fist could guide your hand through.

 

Obviosly, everyone can and should make his or her own decision. I think the possible pitfalls of an Arm Guard are fairly minimal compared to what I am confident it can protect from.

[Jody_Seal]

Second season on a Handle guard. (I don't use the word Arm Guard because that is a patented product, handle guard is a generalization!) I can say that the device I utilize (FM) has saved my ass or extremities a number of times over the last two seasons. I have felt my hand hit the mesh in a tail blow out or have hit the mesh missing the handle and even on my yearly OTF I could tell my head was near the handle maybe even hitting it as I did see stars after that one. The FM product is a softer plastic material that attaches via zip ties. I cut the zip ends close with a pair of nail cutters. I have to install a few new zip's about once a month.

For me I wont ski with out a handle guard and I also believe for me the pitfalls of going without is far greater then utilizing one. Again my decision!

[footloose42]

What I seem to be hearing is:

 

"Without a handle guard, injury is unlikely, and if it happens, will result in intense damage to the entire arm; a worth-while risk. With a handle guard, injury is extremely unlikely, and if it happens, will result in intense damage to the elbow and below. So we should stay away from them."

 

I'm failing to see the logic here.

[Brian_M]

To add to what HO 410 said, I see a lot of guys making an econo version with just duct tape. In speaking with TW a long time ago, he made a good point that a flexible handle guard such a one made from duct tape or a material mesh or neoprene, could actually "funnel" your arm right into the handle opening rather than the handle guard bouncing off of you.

 

I think a handle guard is like seat belts and airbags. If I'm going to be in a head on collision, I'd rather risk the slight chance of injury from the seat belt and the air bag rather than being thrown threw the front window and all that can result from it.

[HO 410]

Footloose42,

We're dealing with cans and mights is both situations. There are skiers that punch though the hande and just get a hefty bruise. Not every skiers breaks an ankle when their bindings should have release but didn't. Not every skier that crashes into the wakes breaks a rib.

 

The plastic these guards are made of is more flexible than I would expect in high energy situations. I have tried to punch through and rip out on the dock. Counldn't do it with 41 Tails on, could with a barehand and fingers straight. It doesn't feel great but neither does crahing OTF. I thought the EVA rubber in the Animals was pretty inflexible until I crashed and ejected from the boots. Again, it doesn't feel great but I've never describe crashing as a pleasent experience.

[thager]

Maybe a more appropriate name would be "Headguard" since a few people have died over the past few years by getting their head in the handle on a fall. I knew one of these people. I'll take my chances with my hand or arm getting caught in the guard. That's a smaller risk I can probably survive.

[rodltg2]

With all this recent talk about handle guards I have a question. Are shortline skiers more likely to put thier arm thru the handle then a longline skier? It seems like all the incidents that I have read about have occured to shortline skiers. Obvoisuly the risk is the for all , but as a 15-28 skier am I less likely? Or should I rush out and get one and not ski another pass until I get one on.

[jimbrake]

@rodltg2. First answer: you should rush out and get something on your handle because it's not worth the risk, because the result of a fall through the handle has a high probability of being BAD. Second answer: speaking only for myself, my arm through the handle falls (I think I've had three over the years, two where I escaped only brushed, scratched, and scared and one that dislocated my elbow, severely stretched my ulnar collateral ligament and put me out for the season) have all come at 35 or 38 off. They happened when I loaded way too hard on the preceding turn, got "snapped" through the following edge change, pulled forward, and missed the handle at the finish of the next out of control turn. There are just too many ways it can happen though. Just get something on your handle. For me it's an Arm Guard.

[Ed_Johnson]

@rodltg2: In your owm words "rush out and get one and not ski another pass until I get one on."

 

Your head or arm can go through the handle at any line length. It happens so fast you will never see it coming. A lot of us who have skied a long time have had many close calls, and know someone who it has happened to, like Chet Raley or Ron Toole.

 

The risk is just to great to ignore.

[thager]

The shorter it gets the more unpredictable the fall due to acceleration, deceleration and the loss of sensibilities caused by those little orange round balls. I missed stuffing my head into the handle three weeks ago by less than a few inches at -28. Got a nice lump on my temple from impact with the rubber handle piece. Scared me a little!

[Klundell]

I am one of those guys that asked the question about getting your hand stuck in the handle guard and not getting it out. I admitted up front it was an ignorant question because I have no experience with it. Sounds like the consensus on this forum is handle guards are a must and getting caught in it is a non-issue. We had a tournament in UT yesterday and I only saw one handle guard on 17 different handles.

[Than_Bogan]

Handle guards are getting pretty common in New England. Maybe still below 50%, but if so not much.

 

While it's certainly true that it CAN happen at any line length, I'm pretty convinced the probability goes way up at extreme short line.

 

I had quite a bit of trouble finding something I could ski well with, but a few strips of well-placed duct tape and I don't notice it at all. (Thanks MS!)

 

This does NOT completely prevent the possibility of an arm getting stuck, however. It reduces the chance of that, but the key benefit is that it does make it impossible to get my head in there (and I tried -- including with some "assistance" from my daughter).

[Klundell]

can someone post the link to the FM arm guard that everyone is saying is the best?

[ForrestGump]

It would seem to me that If you fall at 15 off with a bunch of slack, the boat is pulling the handle down course away from you because you're turning way farther back in relation to the boat. If you fall at 38 off with slack, the angle of the rope is such that the boat has to travel farther away before it takes the handle down course.

[dave_n]

Skiing in Lacanau, France recently I used a friend's handle a few times. The handle had a guard fitted into it. After using it half a dozen times I realized that I hadn't noticed the guard getting in the way once. I couldn't think of a reason not to use one on my handle so after an hour playing around with an old wetsuit bag, a piece of webbing and a couple of small shoelaces, I've got one. I'm ugly enough already without sticking my head through my handle in a fall. We've all heard of a death or serious injury resulting from getting tangled up with a handle. I don't know why I waited so long to fit one.

 

[thager]

Nice kini!

[Jim Neely]

@klundell http://www.jagersport.com/index.php?cPath=89&osCsid=fcd40bb6756f9a371e96056a083c7e6c

 

[footloose42]

at $20-30 a piece, I could hardly use the "I don't want to spend the money" excuse in this high cost sport. I ordered mine on Monday.

[Klundell]

@Jim Neely Thanks

[Klundell]

@Jim Neely which one do you recommend. The regular $25 one. The $30 one... White flex or black flex. There are a few options there.

[footloose42]

@dave_n, did you sew the mesh into the rope? It looks like it came from the factory like that!

[Jim Neely]

@Klundell I use gorilla duct tape

[jimbrake]

@klundell - I think it is posted in another thread, but you can order an Arm Guard from Thomas Wayne at twcues@gci.net. That's the one that I think is best.

 

@shaneh - i don't get what your point is about a through-the-handle fall at 15 vs. 38. Do you think you are going to have time to do something about it at 38 because you are up on the boat?

[Than_Bogan]

@jimbrake I'm sure Shane can answer for himself, but MY point (which I think is also his) is the opposite of your guess: At -38 and shorter, that handle is often NOT being pulled away from you, and may even be behind you, giving you all sorts of opportunities to get fouled in it.

 

In fact, I believe a main reason this kind of accident has become so much more common in the last decade or so is that a lot more people are challenging deep shortline thanks to improvements in equipment and technique.

 

I have my Duct Tape as the final protection against instant death, but I am also extremely conscious of where that rope and handle are, especially at -38 and in, and I don't drop it until I think I've chosen where it's going. (Yes, I understand I do not have complete control in all situations -- but I'm going to TAKE as much control as I possibly can.)

[ForrestGump]

@jimbrake Like Nathan indicated, at the shorter line lengths the rope and handle will be close to you longer because you are higher up on the boat and it's got to travel downcourse farther before it pulls it away. Has nothing to do with your reaction to it. This increases the likelihood that you can fall into the handle or rope.

[eleeski]

As a trick skier, I have taken more weird falls than any of you slalom specialists. My hand bounces off the toe harness frequently. There is plenty of room for my whole arm to fit around the toe harness - but it never has for me. Personally the worry over sealing the entire handle opening is silly.

 

I have used TWs Arm Guard for years. It is a bit of a pain while skiing - the regrab target is small - but I'm not sure I have ever missed the handle completely because of it (I use Clinchers too). I'm not sure I made a single hookup with the center thingy - that didn't last long. Despite my years on the Arm Guard, I hate it. It is a serious pain to thread on and off the rope. It is scratchy and uncomfortable to step on in the floor of the boat. It will not fit in my ski bag. Trivial complaints ...

 

I travel with a different handle. Duct tape was a disaster for me by unsticking a bit and oozing goo all over my ski bag. Plus it's really ugly - it just doesn't fit with the fantastic finish on my Leeski. So my travel handle got a rope across the bridle to block body parts form the opening. It looks kind of like a toe harness. It is clean and inconspicuous. Hopefully it will stop most hands through and certainly it will stop a head through. I use my travel handle a lot and have never put my hand through it. If I didn't have an Arm Guard on my fancy Masterline handle (with my name engraved in it!) I'd use the rope blocker.

 

Than is right on - be as aware as you can be and you can lower the risk.

 

Eric

[jimbrake]

@Than Bogan, @Shane H - OK, sorry for my misread. I concur - more ways to get messed up in the handle at shorter lines and also agree that more people are getting there these days, so more accidents occurring. Yeah - hang on as long as possible. Have you ever skied back over a an extremely slack rope laying in the water, putting you between the boat and the handle? Kind of partial ski-line trick on a slalom ski? That's an "oh s__t" moment.

[Than_Bogan]

@jimbrake I HAVE! And I keep that handle in my hand -- limited control of the situation is better than no control! I hold it high at first to try to pull out any slack that could become a tangle, and then as it tightens I try to guide it down and toward the front of the ski so it doesn't snap me around too much.

 

This doesn't exactly "work" -- but I'm pretty sure it helps!

[dave_n]

@footloose42 Yes, sewed the mesh onto the handle with thin shoelaces. Just parted the rope and passed the lace through without damaging the rope at all. All took less than 1 hour. Got a new handle last week, put one on there before I skied with it. Putting a soft guard on may funnel your hand in, as someone suggested, but it keeps your head out. Never notice it there when I'm skiing, even with the centre webbing, and changing handles is a doddle.

[Texas6]

@ dave_n, that is really slick. Stupid question, where did you find the mesh material you put in there? I like this appriach as it makes handle changes easier than plastic

[dave_n]

@Texas6 The mesh I used is from the bag that a new wetsuit came in. I've had the wetsuit 2 years and it 's never been back in its bag once. I've now seen the same material used for swimming bags and also the bags that some of the Oneil winter stuff comes in. ( neoprene gloves etc. ) The mesh is easy to cut with scissors but you CAN'T tear it. Hope that helps.

[footloose42]

I'm having trouble understanding the "funneling" phenomenon of having a flexible arm guard. To me, it seems like if my hand is already where it would need to be to get the guard to funnel it, wouldn't that mean that my hand would still go through even if the guard wasn't there?

 

Am I not getting something?

[Brian_M]

@dave_n I wonder if putting a solid bar in (see pic) would alleviate the funnel effect, provide some rigidity but still keep it easy to swap on and off ropes?

[eleeski]

If your hand is in a strange fall and gets funneled well into the bridle by a soft guard (or one missing the center thingy), it may be more difficult to extract your hand before you hit the water. Very unusual situation but theoretically possible. I haven't heard of that ever happening. But I haven't heard of any body parts going through any handle that has any type of protection. Maybe a wrist hung up on a trick handle a bit (past a toe harness) but no serious injuries.

 

In many falls, your body parts will bounce off whatever fills in the bridle and avert the injury. Whatever you use should improve your safety.

 

Eric

[jimbrake]

Eleeski made me think - maybe all those who think a handle guard is unnecessary or are worried about getting caught in it should also do/learn toe tricks without a release. What could go wrong?

[dave_n]

@Brian M. Brian, that looks like it would work even better than the design I've used. You're right, it would still be a breeze to swap handles/ropes.

[eleeski]

I learned toe tricks in the days before releases. I have had release failures and operator failures. Sometimes I do toe tricks without any release.

 

Toe tricking is different in that you are locked into the rope to start with. Every fall is a high stakes event.

 

Slalom handle issues are extremely rare. The skier has some control over the outcome in some of those falls. Rare random events should not drive how we approach the sport or our equipment. You choose your acceptable level of risk.

 

Eric

 

 

[Klundell]

Could someone point me to the thread about TW's arm guard or a picture. The rig that @Brian has looks great but it wouldn't work for me because I hold the handle in the middle with my left hand. I'm convinced that I would be safer with a handle guard but I want to know which one to get.

[jimbrake]

Eric, you sound like you're arguing for arguing's sake. I don't get your point(s).

 

"The skier has some control over the outcome in some of those falls." Are you referring to a through-the-handle fall or do you mean all slalom falls? You have zero control over the outcome if something goes through the handle. You gets what you gets.

 

"Rare random events should not drive how we approach the sport or our equipment." What? You mean like death and dismemberment? Those kind of rare, random events?

 

"You choose your acceptable level of risk." Agreed. I used to jump without a helmet and avoided head injury (I got lucky). I still snow ski upwards of 60 mph occasionally without a helmet (I'm starting to rethink this one). I used to ski without a handle guard and I finally got unlucky. Now I ski with an Arm Guard. No one is talking governmental mandates here. This thread has just come up (again) as a result of a gruesome injury from a through the handle fall. We're all just discussing the need for and the types of guards. My point was that toe tricking is dangerous, so pretty much everyone, except you occasionally, uses a release. Slalom skiing is dangerous too, so why not throw a simple guard on your handle even if the odds are low?

[jedgell]

@klundell - send an email to Thomas Wayne, he'll send you back a picture and info about his guard. His address is twcues at gci.net

[eleeski]

Sorry Jim. It sounded too much like you were advocating manditory handle guards. I'm programmed to reject nanny state rules.

 

I disagree with the zero control over an arm through the handle fall - I've pulled mine out several times on the way down. I worried that I was getting too complacent practicing with the Arm Guard so I added the rope across the bridle on my travel handle.

 

Our reaction to the rare random events of 9/11 drove a huge change in society. Are we better off having started wars, restricted freedoms and become paranoid as a response? Sorry, I can't talk politics here.

 

I do fly a private plane (and let my son take flying lessons) despite a tenfold risk over driving. I also ride motorcycles - 10 times more dangerous than flying. Wait, I ride road bicycles which are 10 times less safe than the motorcycle. How can I not be dead?

 

Sorry if this sounds hostile. I certainly don't want to demean those who have been injured - and I have seen several. But there are so many threats (both on and off the water) that I worry that we are overreacting to this issue. And the worry about making the perfect protector goes after a vanishingly small risk.

 

Eric

[ThePantsManCan]

I think the value this sport gives to our lives at this very moment makes us want to protect very ounce it available . We are all a bit nuts. We are all a lot excited. Let's protect it.

[jipster43]

@eleeski I agree with an alarming amount of your posts, but I still think you may be off base on this one. You may ride motorcycles, bikes, and fly aeroplanes, but I'm sure you don't ignore simple safety precautions while you do so. That's all a handle guard is - a simple, cheap piece of insurance. It certainly doesn't negate any of the thrill I get when I ski, but as stated earlier it removes the risk that a buddy of mine will have to pull my limp, headless body from the water!

[eleeski]

I am not advocating against handle protectors. I use one. But the hysteria is what bothers me. Handle accidents are quite rare. Spawning a thread about releasing the rope to increase safety (??!) is absurd. Fixation on making sure that your hand cannot ever get through the handle is not doing anything for the safety while interfering with the grab and being a true pain for the dock starter - and your wallet.

 

Eric

[jimbrake]

Eric - you can pull your arm out of the handle in a slalom fall? Awesome. I can't. You're a ninja skier. Anyway, I'm not getting the "hysteria" part. It's just a discussion following a really nasty injury that might (might) have been prevented by a cheap fix. Yeah, no mandate necessary. No release necessary either, in my mind anyway. I am not a fan of mechanical release water ski bindings. I forgot to mention before - all my snow ski bindings are big springs with DINs up to 20 or 24. I ski them at high settings so I don't come out. I think you might get that I, like you, accept some risk in the things I do. It's just that the result of putting a body part through a handle is almost guaranteed to be bad and the fix is easy and relatively cheap. Horton, do you have a beating a dead horse emoticon somewhere?

[Jody_Seal]

FYI most of the new MasterLine ropes come with an enlarged handle loop to make for easier installment of handles with guards on them.