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Efficiency of Acceleration


Ntq206
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Recently in my ambition towards getting my skiing in shape enough to run 15 off, I have been carefully studying a lot of videos.

Comparing videos of folks at the 15 off level and shortliners into 38 off always felt like comparing apples to oranges to some extent.

 

A while back though I saw a video of Seth Stisher running 15off 30MPH - and the thing that sets his 15 off run apart from just about any 15 off level skier I have ever seen is the super efficient and quick acceleration from the ball to the centerline.

 

Seth clearly falls into the pull nicely, but the acceleration gained from there just seems to be insane. He's already changing his edge at the centerline at 15 off! Most folks running 15 off aren't edge changing until much later - but he's generated so much cross course speed it seems he can afford the early edge change leading to a nice patient turn.

 

It looks so absolutely effortless once he falls back into his pull - it 'looks' like he's hardly taking any load at all but just is so efficient in acceleration. My initial thought is that he is able to carry a ton of speed through the turn back towards the wake.

 

So what do you think makes his acceleration so efficient and effortless looking? Or am I out to lunch in my assessment?

 

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It starts with a nice wide pull-out, followed by a nice progressive edge and great angle through the gates to one ball. He sets himself up to be early from the very beginning. He carries all of his speed out to the buoy and around it without giving much back at any point in the pass. And he's just really good:)
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It is all about body position and patience. Most skiers working on running 15 off don't have nearly the same body position that Seth does behind the boat. That body position allows Seth to hold the angle that he gets out of the turn which is where the patience comes in. Seth really lets the ski finish the turn and swing under the rope before he loads the rope. Most struggling 15 off skiers I see let go of the handle early then rush back to it before the ski has completed the turn and don't have the body position to hold the angle that they do get.

 

There are two articles on this site somewhere that are gold for the basics. John Horton's on basic body position and Bruce Butterfield's on handle control. Master those two fundamentals and 15 off will get much easier.

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Most struggling 15 off skiers I see let go of the handle early then rush back to it before the ski has completed the turn and don't have the body position to hold the angle that they do get.

 

True Dat- this seems to be the biggest thing that has helped me take a step forward in my skiing and start working up the speed in the last 2 weeks- getting the ski around the ball and back toward the wake before I take the boat's load. I think taking the wing off like you guys told me to do has helped make this happen.

 

I'd love to see some other 15 off skiers post some videos for analysis and comparison.

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15 or 38 are the same with a change in distance traveled YOU just don't realize it yet. This makes the pull from the boat greater as the line gets shorter. YOU DO the same things, with more resistance. Don't add anything, I'll explain. At 15 off you have more rope so you travel less distance on the same course! Sounds weird but is true! When you you figure that out you will be on your way! However I'll let you ponder that and share with you why Seth does it so easy.

 

On his pull out he leads with his outside arm and shoulder, brings the ski on edge and rides it to a few feet before the apex(he gets a little lazy and bends his outside arm, as this is 15 its ok, however keep the outside arm straight like a steel pole, that is your accelerator) He pulls in or up on the handle to bring his body over the ski, right arm/elbow locked to his side and hits the apex. Glide... Keeping pressure on the line by keeping elbow close to the body. When its time to go (the left hand gate ball will be lining up with 1 ball as you look in) Allow the left arm to go straight (Seth releases however it doesn't really assist him, you could just reach with left arm (only straighten and resis the urge to move your upper body in) and the ski will come under the line, on edge and the acceleration will begin soon. To really get the acceleration going push both hands down, but feel the pull in the right arm which should be rigid like STEEL, ankles bent, knees slightly bent. The accelorator is the right arm, as your hips come up and right arm goes straight, keeping shoulders open to the boat. Seth is starting his transition at the 1st wake at 15. He is coming off his leaning edge and starting to counter away with his right shoulder, pulling in on the handle, locking his right elbow to his side. Because its 15 and he his traveling less distance/less angle than short line slalom he has created lots of space before the 1st ball. He glides arms in, getting himself over the ski as he approaches the appex. At the apex he releases his right hand and allows the ski to carry out and around the ball. The ski will naturally arc out and back at this point. He has set it all up correctly, which allows him to stay over/with the ski and ski back to the handle, once the hand comes back on the handle he is able to push his hands down, putting the acceleration phase into motion. The moment his 2nd hand comes back on the handle his left arm becomes straight/rigid and acceleration begins. He accelerates into the 1st wake

left arm straight/ shoulders level/ ankles knees slightlty bent. He starts the tranistion at the 1st wake and repeats. (Note as the line gets shorter the distance traveled becomes greater and he will have to hold the acceleration/lean a bit longer, the resistance will have to become greater also, however YOU don't add anything.)

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In my opinon, Jim has hit the nail on the head here. It's interesting to see how a very-deep-shortline skier runs -15, but I think it's unrealistic to think you're going to *learn* -15 by doing what he does. There's just no way you're going to build up so much speed over such a short distance, so you're going to have to be in a pulling frame of mind a lot longer.

 

Although I am no where near to Seth's ability, as someone who typically starts at -28, I know for sure I run -15 and -22 in a way that would have simply not been possible when I was learning those passes. I basically stop pulling at the *first* wake because otherwise I'll end up going too fast and aim much too wide. If I had done that when I was learning those passes, I would have simply gone inside the buoy, because I didn't yet know how to generate that much speed over a short distance.

 

So DO try to learn how to accelerate efficiently, which is about 99% body position, but also understand that you can't just start out using Seth's timing.

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Go inside the Ball, thats ok! Shadow the course, thats OK! That is how I learn each progressive line length!

 

 

Pulling LONG is BAD! Doing what Seth is doing takes nothing more than a good understanding of what Slalomcourse sking is really all about. One of the untold "secrets" is the amount of distance traveled increases as the line gets shorter!

 

In my opinion, the difference between a good 15-22 off skier isn't that much from a 38 off skier. You have to be very fit, great strength to weight ratio, great core strength. You have to learn by watching the best, break it down, understand it. Do it in your mind, and it will come quicker than you think. Most people learn incorrectly to begin with. Most get stuck at either 32 @ 36 or 35@34 and have BIG trouble progresing after that.

 

Most skiers I have worked with learn incorrectly from the beginning, can hack out 22 28 and are inconsistent

at that. If you learn correctly this sport isn't that difficult.

 

Once you "really" understand the fundamentals they don't change much as the line gets shorter. The distance traveled becomes greater as the line gets shorter. The angle will naturally get greater as the line gets shorter.

The amount of resistance the skier needs has to become greater as the line gets shorter. The fundamentals stay the same.

 

YOU don't need to turn any harder as the line gets shorter, it will happen because the line is shorter. That subtle change needs to be understood.

 

YOU don't need to PULL ever, just resist!

 

That is exactly how you learn 15, doing what Seth does. If you do you will progress much faster.

 

It also depends on what your goals are, If you just want to ski for the fun of it, drink beers, don't worry about your fitness level, ect... pull long, turn hard, and hack it out. Its still fun, its just a matter of perspective and where you want to go and how fast you want to get there. A wise man builds his house on a strong foundation, Some prefer to build on sand.

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Great insights! @Rich - thank you for the detailed breakdown - I found it very useful to identify things that I couldn't necessarily just 'see' without having skied at that level.

 

I think the other important nugget here that I'd kind of suspected all along is that just as @Jim Neely said, if I could ski 15 off this way, I could ski shortline. It's a tradeoff between what 15 off 'can' look like and what 15 off 'could' look like. It can be a bit misleading watching this initially that you can change edge so early - well you can, as long as you've taken off like a missile out of the bouy! Not quite there yet!

Thanks guys!

I just love this sport - and I've only just begun.

 

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Awesome thread! I've been forgetting to keep my arm straight this season and it has showed in my poor performance. I've also been guilty of pulling (it feels so good sometimes). After reading this thread I'm sure to get an extra pass! Thanks y'all!
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@Rich

however keep the outside arm straight like a steel pole, that is your accelerator

 

I love the way you stated that Rich. I got thinking about this a bit today and started wondering about the mechanics of why this would act as the accelerator on the ski - could it be that the outside arm pressure will intrinsically create more pressure on the front foot?

Conversely, I would tend to think that if the pressure was applied to the 'inside' arm, this would have an effect of shifting weight to the tail of the ski. Don't know - just thinking out loud.

 

Lately my single focus skiing has been just a conscious effort to keep my arms dead straight. I'm anxious to try feeling pressure on the outside arm this weekend.

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Watch the best skiers in the world, Nate Smith & Terry Winter. They both do it. Nate is a bit more efficient

as he gets in the position a bit quicker on his good side lean and is able to change edges a little earlier going into his off side than Terry. This is extreme shortline however the fundamentals stay the same. I believ that Nate's 2 handed gate actually allows him to get into acceleration phase earlier than Terry, so he is able to start on a line that is about 3-5 feet earlier than Terry. You can stop and start this 1/4 speed video and really break it down.

 

 

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Thought about this again as I finally felt good enough to ski a little this morning, just at 28 off. Ran two 10 pass sets. I also read my notes from past years and in each of them I wrote "work before the first wake, be moving up by the right hand gate ball". Played with that some and it worked!
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@Ntq206 You are NOT “out to lunch” with your assessment. In fact, it seems you have a pretty good handle on what’s going on. Speed is the goal, and you are correct, the more of it you can carry through each turn, and the quicker you can accelerate, the better. There is a lot of great advice in this thread, but one comment has been nagging at me for a week because it's open to misinterpretation:

“If a 15off skier could ski 15off like Seth he would be a 39off skier.”

While this really is a true statement, I hope you didn’t take it to mean that it is a waste of your time to try and emulate the moves Seth is making at 30mph. On the contrary, it sounds like you understand what you are seeing pretty well. Keep studying Seth’s moves in detail. Study all the pros’ moves in detail and do your level best to look like your favorite pro when you ski. If you can get your 30 mph pass to look even vaguely similar to Seth’s, you will be making meaningful progress towards higher speeds and shorter lines.

 

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I have watched this video multiple times. Seth's technique here is amazing. I don't think anyone would believe you if you told them it was 30mph, because most skiers at that speed think they have to pull really long to get wide enough and maintain speed. Clearly not. Short and efficient lean and stay connected to the handle and you carry out with plenty of speed. I need to drill that into my head at every rope length!
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@ntq206 Another nuance of Seth's technique that nobody has touched on here is the bulletproof position he is in as he hits the substantial 30mph wake. Notice how Seth's accelerating position is not a static position. It is a fluid motion that starts with his hips slightly ahead of his feet exiting the ball and by the time he is at the wake, his feet have caught up to and are passing his hips. With his feet passing his hips at wake impact, there's no drama. His knees can flex up in front of him and absorb the wake without affecting his body position.
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This is an interesting thread - personally I would love to comprehend how Seth runs that pass so beautifully, but I think rich's explanation is overly simplified. It's really NOT that easy and I think the real explanation is that Seth ski's for a living, spends countless hours on the water and is a million times more talented than me and the majority of us normal folk!!

 

Rich, I really don't understand this "right arm is the accelerator" thing going from the gate turn in to 1 ball either. Does that mean you are loading your right arm (meaning leading arm - old terminology back arm)? Coz if you load your right arm on this side all you are doing is pushing your weight backwards - try it on dry land. If you load the left or trailing arm you magically swing forward in the DOT. This is why Rossi always talks in his articles about trusting the trailing arm pressure and not the leading (old back arm) as we have always been told. If you DO mean leading arm, then I can't see how that will act as an accelerator- unless I'm missing something.

 

I'd really love to believe that slalom is not hard and that the difference between running 15off and 38 off is not that much - but I can't. I have no comprehension of how the top guys do what they do. To me, I think it must be magic. Take a look at Aaron Larkins gate and try and tell me how te hell he does that - because I have no idea!!

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I am participating as a beginning course skier here, but one of my instructors (with many years of skiing and coaching experience) told me that your right arm to 1,3,5, and left arm to 2,4,6 is an accelerator. I do seem to notice that this is so.
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@SkiJay - thanks for your comments and thoughts. You also hit on another point - which is his smooth 30MPH-wake crossing.

That to me is some great timing on the release from the pull also.

 

For me, the thing that I've been keying off is finding that efficient acceleration - I know I end up pulling too long, but that's because I feel like I have to because my acceleration is much more gradual.

The 'arm accelerator' is a key that I've never even tried in this lock so to speak.

I understand that while I might not achieve that level of efficiency for quite some time - it's something I want to keep visualizing as at least what it should look like.

 

I'm thinking that as long as I can keep the speed moving through the turn, I can maybe also reduce my propensity to start my pull too early and be in a decent position to 'hit the accelerator'.

 

As I read back on what I just wrote, it's amusingly apparent to me that my "actual skiing" level isn't even on the same planet as my brain that is thinking this technique stuff through.....

 

 

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There are so many things about proper skiing that this video demonstrates, which all contribute to Seth's being able to ski that pass as he does. Handle control, hip position, position of head behind the boat, counter rotation, etc. What's nice is that at 30mph, everything is happening at a pace you can actually see.
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I scored a new PB in terms of speed yesterday and was pretty sure I looked like Seth in that video- until I watched the video of me skiing that my wife took. When I watch myself ski sure there's tons of things I'd like to do better and all the advice I get is great but the challenge is finding that next thing. It's such a neat feeling when something clicks. Good news I'm keeping a detailed ski journal (written and video) so once I'm into shortline I can chronicle the order of changes I've made along the way lol.
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@Ntq206 You are getting a ton of information all at once here, but you are understanding, so here's another essential piece that you may be missing based on your comment regarding Seth's timing of his "release from the pull."

 

Yes, Seth starts getting off of his cutting edge at the wake, but he doesn't release the handle from his hip until more than half way out to the ball. Due to the inherent geometry, the handle is accelerating beyond the boat speed from the time it passes the course centerline. Even though Seth has changed edges, he is still "pulling" the handle to his hips and harnessing this geometric acceleration until he finally releases the handle to extend. There isn't much acceleration doing this at -15, but it's there and Seth is using it. Most skiers don't discover how essential it is to "stay connected" beyond the edge change like this until it becomes an essential skill for shortline success. Summary: Seth stops cutting behind the boat, but he is still feeling the "pull" of the boat until nearly the bouy line.

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