Different ways to think about the best way to ski back to the handle

[jimbrake]

Was going to add this question/discussion onto Horton's thread about different ways to think of old stuff, but thought this would be better as it's own thread. One of the main issues or problems that I've always battled is how to get back to the handle from the apex of the turn in the most efficient way, with speed, to have that "great hookup" where you just say to yourself "yeah!" because now you know you are set up to nail the next pull and edge change and set yourself up so sweet for the next buoy. My main problem here is always forcing the hookup and finishing the turn too hard. Last night off the dock I ran my standard 28, then 32, then took six shots at 35. Out of those six 35s, four were identical - really nice gate, sweet 1 ball (onside), set up so nice coming in to 2 (offside), finish too hard on 2, get pulled early, but narrow and fast into 3, hard off of 3 as a result, harder off 4, narrow and now later into 5, can't get around 6. Did this exact thing four times. I know the problem was the hook up at 2, nothing before this as I could not have come off 1 better or been in better shape coming into 2. So here are the things I tried to do to hook up and come out of 2 better:

 

fix attempt #1 - keep shoulders level through the turn back to the handle. The thought here is that this prevents the inside shoulder from dropping and causing you to dig in at the finish. Problem: I still can come back to the handle too hard, too quick.

 

fix attempt #2 - keep vision up and down course. This goes hand in hand with fix #1. Problem: I still come back to the handle too quick, too hard.

 

fix attempt #3 - bigger extension/reach/keep hips up through the turn (haha). The idea is that I'll stay more on the front foot and keep the tip down and carve a smoother turn back to the handle. Problem: see above problems

 

fix attempt #4 - drive inside (right) hip through turn. The idea here is another way of doing fix #3, but this fix has the added benefit of keeping your mass moving through the turn and works. Problem - less of a problem, but I still can overcook the turn with this thought.

 

fix attempt #5 (only in my head afterwards, didn't get to actually do this one) - keep your off hand by your hip until you ski your hips all the way back under the rope. I know this works as I've done it, but somehow lost this fix over the past month.

 

All of the above are just ways to "be patient" through the finish of the turn which is the old-school equivalent in this situation of "hips up".

 

So my question to you all is, what do you all do to "be patient" through the finish of a turn (on either side) so that you come back to the handle smooth and carry speed through the finish for that sweet hook up and acceleration to the other side?

 

thanks,

Jim

[Steven_Haines]

I try to stand as tall as I can in the turn and try to counter rotate starting with my hips. The thought I have is to try to look at or be open to the shoreline. I realize that I don't even come close to achieving this but what I think it does for me is put my inside hip in the lead and transfers my mass forward and inside so that my turn is initiated by that leading hip. I also believe that it slows down my movements so that I'm not crushing the turn by twisting in the direction that I eventually want to travel. Once I've done that, I focus on leaving my body in that open position and try to keep my off hand at my outside hip until the handle makes it back to to my hip. If I can do those simple things I'm off to the next ball in a nice stacked position. Also by doing this I find that I'm hooking up just before the trough in the white wash. That's such an awesome feeling!

[Razorskier1]

I try not to think about the turns. Thinking about turns typically causes me to turn hard, whereas thinking about the intensity of my pull and keeping my handle results in nice, smooth turns. That being said, sometimes I watch the tip of the ski and wait to come back to the handle until the tip of the ski crosses under the line. This keeps me from loading too soon and gives me more angle.

[Ed_Johnson]

Jim,

 

Agree with your 5 steps and what Steven says. Would just like to add one simple tip that may help you.

 

When reaching with full extension at the apex, try to feel free of the boat in your countered position so you can FALL into the turn, hips leading. DO NOT pull on the handle or you will alert ZO you are there and it will be on you sooner, not allowing you to get in your fully leveraged staked position.

 

Also, keep that reaching arm straight as you SWEEP it acrooss your body to the opposite hip. This gives you a low anchor point at hookup, allowing load to the COM and not the shoulders.

 

Hope this helps, ED

[TSki]

I will add two alternative ways to think about it:

 

#1 - Think about shoulders moving perpendicular to direction of travel. I guess the way I think about this is going from 1 to 2-ball you want your left shoulder to be leading your movement and going from 2 to 3-ball you want your right shoulder leading your movement. If you had a rod going through both shoulders it would always be perpendicular to the direction of travel.

 

#2 - Be aware of your reach; When you release the handle let it out and ski back to it in one fluid continuous movement. Don't bring the handle back in at a faster rate than you let it out.

[skidawg]

Especially for lefties, pay close attention to ur gate. Two ball is a result of your gate shot. Ur 1 will feel good regardless. If ir gate is narrow or off, 2 ball will suffer!

[Steven_Haines]

I don't know how many of you guys are snow skiers on here but while I'm on the mountain I focus on a countered position as I'm sweeping thru fast GS turns. I find that the more I counter the better I finish the turn and the same is true with a good powerful slalom turn. I know a lot of guys don't agree with the snow and water analogy, but I find that I do a lot of the same (conceptual) movements.

And Ed is right about sweeping your handle hand back with a straight arm but I'll add to it by saying that the rate of that return should be based mainly on keeping line tension. I see quite a few people yanking or snatching the handle back in a beautiful turn. This practice wakes up ZO too early and sends you into the next buoy fast and narrow.

[tsixam]

@jimbrake, I have experienced the exact same thing and it was not really my turn @ 2 that sucked. I noticed, when I had a really nice 1 ball and a nice pull to 2, I usually came of edge too hard and too early, making me just a bit narrow to 2. The fix was to pay attention to my elbows or “squeeze the handle” as I exited the wake. It gave me the extra feet I needed to make the turn @2 much better.

Tsixam

 

[MrJones]

This is a non technical thought from a fellow lefty. Years ago I was running 38, but very inconsistently. Same thing. Sweet one ball, struggle at 2. One day I had a REALLY crappy one and on the way to two I thought, "what the heck, I'm just gonna just turn easy and see what happens".

 

Well, as you can guess I ran it and surprised myself. For awhile I actually ran more with substandard starts than with good ones. What was happening (and still does as Skidawg will attest) is that as a lefty it is easy to overload with a good rip-the-back-side-outta-one ball and not have any line tension into two. Eventually as my confidence in the pass improved I was able to say more calm with "good" one balls and not load so early.

 

So. My advice is to get a crappy one for awhile and see what happens. Non standard coaching I know, but what the heck.

Good luck.

sj

[Than_Bogan]

Related to this is, of course, handle control. I've found myself tying these concepts together in a new-to-me way: I am trying to keep the handle so long that when I finally do release it it's my trigger to start skiing the other way. It feels like the release is what initiates my turn and I try to think of it as one smooth movement from the release all the way to the re-grab, during which I am (calmly and patiently) just trying to get myself reconnected and facing the other way.

 

Of course, I don't usually manage to do this! But I seem to like this way of thinking and it feels awesome when I DO manage to do it.

[jimbrake]

Thanks, guys. I hear everything you're saying. @steven haines - I am a ski racer so I know exactly what you mean about staying countered through the turn. I think best advice is to ski that off hand back to the handle, no reaching, no rotating. I also agree with Razorskier that the focus should be on staying on the handle more so than the turn. That's what was so frustrating about this - i feel like I am nailing the previous edge change and staying on the handle so well yet still struggling with how I come out of 2. It really all comes down to turn radius. I need to avoid tightening the radius of finish to keep the speed up. Scot - I totally get what you're saying about the crappy 1 ball - I think what feels "good" to me at 1 ball is actually too tight of a finish, too much load, I can just manage that better on my good side than I can on my offside. My 1ball finish even though it feels good is probably too back side, too quick, too much load. Skidawg - agree - most of my focus is on my pullout, turn in and gate position/speed. Feel like that is the best part of my skiing right now.

 

Thanks again all. Wish I could come take a set with all of you.

 

Jim

[JC McCavit]

@jimbrake - Great thread, I am a lefty and I am having this exact same problem at the same rope length and sounds like this is the point that causes problems for a lot of skiers. Your description of nailing the one ball is exactly what I feel. Then for me it feels like I am coming into 2 ball hot. Then I go out and do it again like an idiot. I need to change something. I can't wait to get out this morning and try some of these recommendations and hopefully figure it out.

[The_MS]

@Mr.Jones

That crappy 1 all is not working for me.

[jimbrake]

We can always just go back to "keep your hips up" and "be patient".

[Horton]

When I work in this ... and I need to ... All I think about is my free hand. Literally just try to be aware of it. This seems to delay my shoulders rotating back by a fraction.

[Razorskier1]

Agree with @Horton. Sometimes when I'm struggling I will focus on keeping the free hand right on my hip until I'm back through. Works great, and also minimizes movement of the upper body.

 

As RFF skier I generally have a really good one ball. Problem I run into is sometimes after a great one I hold on to the pull too long going to 2. Then I'm fast into the ball, have to swing the ski quickly from one side of the handle to the other and turn fast. This, my friends, is bad!

 

Today I ran a bunch of 32 off. The only thing I thought about was a good, easy, progressive gate, and then where my edge change was. By making the edge change occur consistently in the same place (just off the second wake), the ski arcs better and finishes without any effort at all. I'm convinced that where I change edges determines how my ski finishes. Early edge change it finishes fast, nice and smooth. Late edge change -- not so much. I believe part of this is simply the geometry of the arc. The other part is that by changing edges early I can keep the handle better because I'm not loading the line as the rope is climbing up the side of the boat.

[SkiJay]

Fabulous thread, and I'm all for technique before tweaking. But since it seems nothing you have tried technique-wise has been able to fix the problem, isn't that when it's time to start questioning the ski's setup? The setup may be fine for your longer line passes, but you have to tune for your deepest pass. Your ski may just have a bit too much tip in the water. If you can't tame it with technique, try moving your front boot (or boots) back a hole. If you like where your bindings are, then try moving the fin back a few thou if the ski is over turning on both sides, or a little less fin length if you feel it's mostly over-turning on the off-side. One degree less wing angle might even fix it.

[matthewbrown]

luckily for me, I have seen Jim ski over the years and would concur with @skidawg and @Mr. Jones. Finishing 1 ball with heavy hips would most likely be the culprit, probably a product of sitting back through the gate pull but you should post video so that we can be sure.

[jimbrake]

@SkiJay - thought about setup after the same thing kept happening over and over. I'm already one hole back. I could take some tip out of my fin and deepen it a bit and see what happens or shorten DFT, but I know the main issue is pilot error.

 

@matthewbrown. Working hard on being over the ski on the gate turn in, but post-edge change am probably getting stuck behind my feet. I have this ability to be behind my feet but still get a ton of ski tip in the water. Weird combo. Hoping to do some video today.

[JC McCavit]

I tried an additional half hole back with both binding and was able to get around 3 but only if I didn't reach, grab, yank and drop shoulder at 2 ball. I may take 1/1000 tip out and try that for fun. I am not using a wing yet. I tried the wing the other day and it felt like and anchor when set at 9 degrees. It is obvious this is more of technique issue, but i think I am very close and like @SkiJay mentions the ski probably needs to be setup for this rope length.

[MattP]

1/1000 really?....

[JC McCavit]

@MattP - It looks like you are still trying to get through 32 in a tournament. A few us have been doing that for 25 years or more. I know 1/1000 may be a lot for you at your age. But we are talking 35 off. When you do this for a long time you start listening to guys like "Schnitz" who probably knows "Every time I came through the gates and approached 1 ball at short line lengths (38 and 39 off), I came up narrow. Taking out 8/1000ths tip solved this problem. At Carlos's place outside of Lisbon, I had to 1/1000th more tip and 3.5/1000th less depth"...If you feel your setting are close why the ?...for 1/1000th!

[MattP]

@JC McCavit

You are correct I am still trying to get through 32 in a tournament, but I have only ever skied two tournaments. At the end of the day is that all that matters? To me, no not really. 1/1000 is not a lot for someone at my age who is skiing into 35 on a regular basis. I have lived and skied with many pros and have NEVER ever seen them touch a fin. Only ONCE did I see a pro change his wing angle.

 

You people on this forum change your settings more than anyone else out there. I set mine and leave it. I check it on occasion. You can fix a whole lot more with your body positioning, when that is perfect then you can do other things to get farther in the course. If you are only changing your settings to get you better you are only hurting your self in the long run and not looking at what is causing the problems, body positioning, technique ect.

 

@matthewbrown said it this way over in the A2 review

If your fin is 6.861 in length and you increase that by 8 thousandths of an inch to 6.869 and can feel a major difference, you better find another sport because the only difference is in your head.

and he skis into 41off.

 

I agree with him fully, how are you going to feel a change in 1/1000 do you even realize how small that is?

[JC McCavit]

@MatP

I have no right challenging you as I am not an expert either. You are correct about technique. Practice is also very important. This tread really hit home with me because jimbrake put into words the area and actions in the course I am currently struggling with. And yes I adjust my fin to much, but I really have fun trying to get the numbers perfect when I can't be on the water. 95 percent of the time I put the fin back where it was before I started making changes. The reason I am trying 1/1000 adjustments is because I personally feel fin length is the most important fin setting to get right so I don't mind changing it 3 times to get 3/1000 adjustment. I am dreaming about finding that perfect sweet spot that will get me through 35 in a tournament this year. Making adjustments also motivates me to get out on the water and try to make this pass.

[Rich]

skiing back to the handle is about how you approach the ball. If you are losing angle going into the ball because you didn't get in a good leverage position to start with, (Leading arm completely straight/down and as close to the body as possible) to allow you to get the ski up on edge) then as you hit the area between the 2nd wake and end of white water spray having a combo of handle seperation and shoulders/upperbody getting twisted toward the boat you will start to go in the direction of the boat instead of outbound and carving a big turn in front of the ball. You must maintain the leading arm straight, like a steel pole, Arm/elbow closest to the boat must stay locked onto your side with no seperation. If you have seperation you will lose angle and start to go in the direction the boat is traveling. If you have done that correctly skiing back to handle is a natural progression of skiing outbound to the appex , reach and ski coming back inbound under the line, or skiing back to the handle. If the elements of leverage/ angle handle control are missing you can't ski back to the handle at that point it is game over (if you are tyring to ski back to the handle). Skiing back to the handle will occur naturally if you hold direction off the 2nd wake to the point of letting go. It all starts with the proper leverage position at the point you put the 2nd hand back on the handle, maintaining angle/direction off the 2nd wake. Creating a round turn in front of the ball maintaing outward angle If that part isn't correct you can't ski back to the handle. Skiing back to the handle is simply a funtion of how you set up the turn. That is my 2 cents. Most problems occur a step or 2 before,most skiers realize what has happened and they are trying to fix something that needs to be corrected earlier in the sequence of events. The good news is there are only a few steps to Slalom and its easy to back up a step to correct a recurring problem.

[jimbrake]

Hey Rich. Agree with you 100% that being solid through and beyond the edge change will resolve most turn issues. I just posted this because I was feeling like I was having some problems even after getting good outbound direction. After the gate (a whole other subject that I didn't intend to address in this thread), my #1 thought is maintaining a strong connection through the edge change and beyond (tight line). I still maintain there are things to do right and things to avoid in the turn finish no matter how well you've set yourself up prior. That was the basis of my initial post.

[ForrestGump]

Goes right back to what Charles tells me......... the turns are just there to link two crosscourse movements. You get the cross course movements correct, and the turn just seems to happen.

[ral]

@JC McCavit and @Mattp, here comes the Anal Engineering Cavalry.

 

I do not know if someone can feel a 0.001" change in fin length (not me), but I can prove that it would be very difficult to measure such a change.

 

Not only an instrument is not able in general to have a real precision that matches its minimum readout (not talking about exactness here, engineers will get that one...), but the mere aluminum variations with temp would prevent to get to that point.

 

6061 Al has a coefficient of linear thermal expansion of 13 microin/in per degree F, so a 6.9" fin would change 0.0897 thousands of an inch per degree F.

 

Meaning a 11 F temp change in a fin would account for a 1/1000 variation in its length.

[ForrestGump]

FWIW......I watched a coach working with a skier who wanted to change his fin repeatedly. The coach said Let me handle it. He played with it, handed it back and said "I lengthened it .005 and deepend it .003". The guy skied it and said it was better. The coach then took it back and fiddled with it some more. Gave it back and said he lengthened it another .002. Guy skied it and said it was awesome. Coach then said "Dude, I never moved the fin, just pretended to. It's all in your mind. Now go turn and lean."

[Rich]

Hey Jim, I'm convienced that skiing back to the handle is a function of outbound direction. As the line gets shorter this becomes harder to do. If you maintain outbound direction skiing back to the handle is natural. If

you are pulling in its because you have got twisted in the direction of the boat, If you are stepping on the back foot its usally because you lost outbound direction. If you hold outbound direction its easy to ride the ski around the ball and stay with the ski carrying as much speed as possible. After studying so many skiers from amatuer to pro the big difference I see is that the skiers that can run 38 & beyond consistently have great leverage positioning, followed by great handle control which leads to great outbound direction, which leads to a smooth turn carrying speed. My experience is this takes great strength to weight ratio, great core strength and proper timing. When executed properly it makes you feel like you are going slow, yet in reality you are going faster, covereing more distanse due to the rounder path in front of the ball. If you ever feel fast it because you are starting to travel in the same direction as the boat, which means you are covering less

distance and are actually going slower. If you ever want to ski together I go to twin cities every Wed. to ski 12 to 5. Off I-5

 

 

[jimbrake]

Hey Rich. Thanks for the offer to ski w/you - would definitely like to. Again, I agree with everything you are saying. I guess I'm talking about very Jim Brake-specific issues. I know when I've executed a lean, an edge change, stayed connected, am early, wide, feel slow. Yeah, it's definitely easier to execute a turn after all that. But...I can still do some dumba__ things coming back to the handle and those are probably more mental errors than anything. Getting excited/anxious to get back on the handle and get going is the problem. I am just interested what others might do or think about to "stay with the ski" through the turn. Setting everything up before the turn is job 1.

[Gern Blanston]

I've been lurking for a while and had very little to offer, but this post is EXACTLY what I've been working on this season. I know from other sports that I can really only maintain 1 thought while in the midst of the chaos, so I try to keep the one thing that seems to trigger everything else. With that, I'm RFF (but not a lefty) and have noted that the 1 to 2 transition is the one that I struggle with.

 

What works for me is to think about relaxing my right shoulder - let it trail behind me. This has the effect of opening up my shoulders and hips to the boat getting me nice and stacked for the hook up. Curiously, I've also noted a tendency to be a lot less smooth when I wait for my hips to come all the way around to the handle. I need to reach just a little bit to give me more time to get set.

 

Great thread and I do appreciate the insights you all have given me into other ways to think about this.

[Than_Bogan]

@ShaneH: Yes! Thank you Charles! I try to tell people that all the time.

 

And then Yes! again on the fin adjustments. Not saying it can't help, but a LOT of it is placebo effect. Sometimes I think the only worthwhile reason to adjust a fin is because it makes you think about the ski and then go and actually SKI BETTER. Then you can put the fin back, because it was probably right in the first place :).

[The_MS]

@Rich That is good stuff. You need to post more. Thanks for the quality info.

[Horton]

@rich wise words

[pjirsa]

@MS must have been soaking up some good advice on this thread earlier today. he ran -38 during both of his sets today at the home site. making it look easy.

[thager]

And he did it on a ..........................................MONZA!!

[Razorskier1]

@Rich has it right. I definitely notice that when I maintain outbound better by "staying at the end of the rope", ie, keeping it tight, I feel earlier, slower, and like I don't really even think about the finish of the turn, it just happens naturally as the ski arcs out and back. Now if I could just do that every time I'm on the water! @MS -- way to get after it! Now put thos scores up this weekend!

[The_MS]

@Razor I have a new S2 that will be here today but I may leave it in the box until July. After reading Rich's comments and riding the Monza, it feels easy again. The Monza carries speed into and out of the ball better than any ski I have been on for the past 3 years.

[Than_Bogan]

@MS I'm a big fan of going with what WORKS! (But I do want to hear what you think of the S2, so don't stay on the Monza too long...)

[ForrestGump]

Pulling in at the finish of the turn has been one of my downfalls as I've started skiing 35 more consistently. Pull in and the ski stops it's arc back in. Don't pull in and the ski comes under the rope. To help, charles told me to edge change, release the handle, feed it out slowly, and then to just leave it out. When I leave it out, the ski comes back inbound and the handle comes down naturally to meet the hip with straight arms. When I do that, I don't think about the turn or my hips have to do this, my body has to do that, etc. I just think, leave the handle out, leave the handle out, leave the handle out, leave the handle out. The turn takes care of itself at that point.

[Ed_Johnson]

Agree with Shane. Can only add that I like to slide the hip (COM) towards the handle off the apex and keep looking down the buoy line during the turn. If the head turns, so will the shoulders.

 

And for Gods sake, do not pull in on the handle or ZO will know your there. Charles is right.

[Rich]

Thats interesting. I have always found that hanging onto the handle as long as possible works best, as it helps to maintain outbound direction. The handle will literally get pulled away, I stay off the handle as short a time as possible. The ski comes under the line upon the release, and skiing into the handle just happens naturally.