Coaching requested...go pro video

[WBLskier]

 

I'm posting a go pro video of me skiing. I'll take any tips that anyone wants to share. Thanks.

[Than_Bogan]

From-ski perspective is interesting and cinematic, but I don't know how to understand what I'm seeing enough to coach from it.

[Chef23]

I don't think you can coach from that view either. It is hard to really see what is going on. It looks beautiful though with the sun in the background.

[RichardDoane]

32 mph -28 is a strange opener, why ?

[Essvar]

I am not a professional coach, but....

 

Step one... After a deep water start, pull your shorts down :)

[Horton]

@Essvar yes I agree

[Horton]

there is something bad at apex of 2/4/6 but can't tell from this angle. Maybe a new vest would correct it.

[Wish]

The view is tough. It's impossible to see where you are in the course timing wise. Early, late? Why? Take shots from the boat and you'll get tons of advice. Slowing boat shots down, even better.

[thager]

@richarddoane I started at -28 32mph for a while on advice from some people in WPB (Okeeheelee), FL. Shortline characteristics seem to start at -28. Opener was easy and got you warmed up for the 34.2. May go back to it in practice for a while.

[ForrestGump]

I've been going out at 28off/32mph this season. 22 is just a lot of freaking rope and nowhere close to 28 in feel. When I can run 35 off most of the time, I'll start going out at 28/34. Just not there quite yet. At tournaments, I catch a lot of flack from the boat crew usually, though. Something about Girls2 speed and a questioning of my manhood.

[Killer]

I stopped skiing at -22/34 this season, a pass I would make 98% of the time last year because I was making -28/34 5% of the time. Only skiing at 28off this year, free skiing -28&-32 on advice from the coach at the club.

 

It really is so different, when Ive gone back to -22 I ski like crap, pulling too long, hard and in the wrong places.

 

Not convinced its the right move, but its different and im never going to learn -28 unless I ski it, been a long line skier for too long...

[usaski1]

so not a coaching question, but an equipment q. How do you keep the camera from angling down during the run? I tighten up as best I can, and across the wake, it always turns down. Was trying to think of a block or something I could wedge between it and the ski?

[WBLskier]

It actually did turn down a little bit...I think I adjusted it after a fall. I was thinking of doing the same thing though. I cranked it down before I put it on the ski and that helped.

[lundberg]

I had the same problem. So I made a combo float/angle block with an extra piece of velcro on the ski. Tried it yesterday and it worked great. I'll post a picture of it when I get home tonight.

[Chef23]

@Killer I think if you are only making -22/34 5% of the time you need to keep skiing 22 off and clean up things at that line length then translate them to 28 off. You can't work on technique at a line length you run only 5% of the time you are struggling just to survive it.

 

This year I am running 28 off 99% of the time (I think I have only missed one in almost white caps) and am about 40% for 32 off and I run 22/32 and 22/34. The better my 22 offs are the better my 28 offs are. When I run 32 off as consistently as I run 28 off right now I will drop the 22/32. In practice I sometimes drop the 22/32 but I am going to keep it in for tournaments.

[Than_Bogan]

@Killer Honestly that sounds like some bad advice from your club. I'm 100% with @chef23 on this.

 

Most of your practice runs should be completing passes and trying to learn how to do every aspect of them better.

 

To work on -28, open water is fine, and also try 32/-28 or 33/-28 in the course to help get a feel for the geometry.

 

Without having ever seen you ski, it's probably the case that you need to improve your leverage position, perhaps significantly. That's usually the barrier that makes -28 seem a zillion times harder than -22.

 

In particular, if skiing a lot at -28 is making you pull too LONG at -22, something weird is going on and I am doubtful that you are learning what you're trying to learn.

 

I reserve the right to be completely wrong. After all, your club members have seen you ski and I haven't!!

[Killer]

@chef23 I think you misunderstood, but Id like to hear from you again on this revised version:

 

Last season I could run 22off in just about any condition at 34.2mph, And its my 28off pass I run about 5% of the time.

 

I wasnt really getting better at -28 while still skiin at -22, there are a lot of things you can get away with at longer lines and run all 6. I traditionally pull too early, maybe not too long, and definitelytoo hard too early.

 

The advice that has been given to me is -28 has much more whip effect and is so much different than the longer lines.

 

It would be nuts to try and run a shorter line length without being very consistent at the previous length.

 

Your thoughts?

[Than_Bogan]

I believe chef23 understood correctly; at least I did.

 

What I would strongly suggest is that most of your passes be at -15 and -22 and make sure you are actively working on getting better at something. I guess I just don't agree that you need to spend a lot of time at -28 at this stage. SOME, yes. But I think abandoning -22 (and -15) is a recipe for getting a lot worse -- and maybe getting hurt.

 

At the other end, trying a -32 every so often isn't totally ludicrous either. It may clue your body in to something that you can apply when you go back to -28. But I'd say your breakdown of time spent on each line length should be about 40% -15, 40% -22, 19% -28, and 1% -32.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, the key is that you are using those longer line passes to work on something and get better, NOT "just running them."

[Chef23]

@Killer I understood what you said and I agree with @Than_Bogan that you have a flaw somewhere that needs to be fixed to run 28 and it is probably body position that Than indicated. You need to run passes and work on fixing your flaws and you can't do that missing passes at 28 off. If you can slow the boat down at 28 off and work on technique and run passes then that would probably work.

 

I would argue that if you can't run 22 early and easy you will struggle to run 28.

 

I also agree that taking a look at 32 off after you run a 28 isn't a bad idea. Whenever I run 32 I shorten to 35. Is dont bang my head against 35 though. If I might take a crack or two then lengthen the line to work on something.

[ForrestGump]

I agree with @Chef23 and @Than_Bogan . There is no way I would recommend dropping 22 off when you can only run 28 5% of the time. My coach had me still going out at 15 when I was running only 50% of my 28s. It only got to where he had me dropping 15 when I could run 28 95% of the time. While it's certainly different from 15 and 22, if you can't run at least 50% then you are not technically ready for 28 only.

[Chef23]

I have been told frequently by skiers a lot better than me that you want to run 3 passes before you get to your tough pass. If 28 off is it you should be running 15 and 22 at a minimum. I run 22/32, 22/34, 28/34 before I get to 32 which is hit and miss for me right now but it sounds like a higher hit rate than @killer at 28. You need to run balls in good positions to improve.

[crashman]

interesting turn this thread took but this helps with a discussion I had the other night with some club members. My partner is running -15 32mph>50% and some 34 mph; another member told him to slow it down to 28mph at 28 off instead of working toward 34mph- "the course is going to go past so fast you'll create bad habits. You need to slow it down and work on body position at a shorter length." I called BS on that. Personally I'm keeping it slow and enjoying rounding #6 for a while. I think the cleanest 28.6 I ever ran last week was my best skiing ever.

[Laz]

@killer Me too!!! But I still want to be able to run up the rope, starting at 15' off.

[Laz]

@killer My latest issue is that I can run most 22's with horrible gates and a lousy approach to 1 ball. I guess the longer line makes that possible. With 28, it's all about the gate and 1 ball (for me, anyway).

 

At the club from 2-5 tomorrow.

[Killer]

@Laz will likely miss you tomorrow, should be there around 6 though. Paul would rather see me shadow at -28 and -32 only, but I can't help to try and run buoys after a few shadow passes. trying something different can't hurt too much right? when I get more comfortable out there running up the line not just drills, I'll add my -22 pass back as a warm up, maybe 32mph to start, but I dont think I'll be going back to -15, its just too different, too much rope...

 

@Than @Chef23 have been told I have good technique shadowing/open water, add the buoys and a lot of what I do well goes to hell. I pull too early, need to be more patient completing my turns and better transition/handle control, which IMO is all part of the same concept of progressively loading the rope. When I'm patient and progressive I'm wide, early and slingshotted to the next buoy. I don't find this concept as easy to work on at longer lines & its (swing effect) the difference between longline and shortline skiing.

 

So although my approach isn't the norm, I'm not heading out at my max speed and rope length right off the bat trying to get around all 6, I am shadowing passes at -28 and even -32, practicing my gate, and if I miss a buoy continue to shadow the rest of the balls.

 

I think its hard to improve on technique when youre consistently getting all 6 at longer lines. For me it reinforces bad habits because I tell myself "I just made all 6, 5 times in a row" and am not as aware of what I did wrong, because whatever I did, I just made the pass. If that makes sense? all the help and advice is appreciated, and sometimes its tough explaining in a few words everything thats going on.

 

 

[Chef23]

@Killer I think the value of running passes that you can make is having the time to think about what you are doing and more importantly having the time to understand what you did wrong. When you run all 6 do you realize that you pulled too early, rushed back to the handle or didn't ride the handle all the way out to the buoy. When I run 22 and 28 I am trying to be aware of those things and trying to do all the little things that I am working on. When I go to 32 off it is a bit of a scramble at times and I don't have as much time to think so I am not working on things I am just skiing. The idea is the things that I learn and can do at 22 and 28 hopefully become more automatic at 32.

 

I think free skiing is great for improving body position. I don't know that everything else translates as well but I don't free ski much.

 

Coaching is critical to improvement. If you can have someone in the boat that can tell you when things improve or need work that makes a big difference.

 

At the end of the day if you are having fun and improving I would keep working on what you are doing. If you have dumped 22 off and are running 28 off more often at max speed then maybe you are doing the right thing. It does run counter to most of the coaching I have heard and had.

[skier2788]

I can see both view points. While i can appreciate the idea of running three passes and then your toughest pass. I follow the method that killer is taking. For two reasons one my lake gets horrible wash back after three and i dont want my toughest pass on the worst water and two i like failing in order to help identify my problem areas. That being said i still run my opener everytime. Gets in my head if i havent run a pass in a week. I go out and run -32 then Shorten to -35 and take a few shots at it then sit while water calms and repeat going out at -32 again seems to work for me. Wouldnt mind trying the other way if i had clean water after 3 passes.

[Than_Bogan]

@skier2788 Severe backwash like that is a special situation that does call for different tactics. We had a bit of that for a while last year and I found myself doing almost a reverse set: -32, -35, -32, and then repeating -28 in the by-then oceanic water.

 

@killer Well, if you have a live coach that you trust, then you've got to go with that. But it seems I don't agree with him on ... well, pretty much anything. :) I see very little value in shadowing balls, as to me the fundamental challenge of the slalom course is the width. Training yourself to aim narrow is, in my opinion, a big step in the wrong direction.

 

And I'll shut up now!

[Killer]

@Than Bogan Try to keep an open mind, don't forget you are only reading a few words on this forum, don't see me ski, or here anything else that goes on. You are also NOT a professional coach, correct? There is no 1 way to learn or to ski.

I'm not a new skier either, with plenty of time in the sport, I actually am a certified waterski coach from years ago & have rounded all the buoys at -32off when I was young, but no speed control or tournament boat at that time...

 

1 of the reason this coach thinks its good to shadow or freeski is you have to create the muscle memory on how to ski properly and when you add teh buoys most often skiers end up scrambling in someway. I'm going against the advice of the coach and trying to round buoys without hammering the fundamentals.

 

I agree about shadowing, think of it more as free skiing though. This is why on passes 3 or 4 thru 6 I will add the gates, 1-2 and eventually try to run the pass. Not trying to ski narrow, but with freeskiing I think skiing narrow is somewhat natural - there's nothing to gauge the extra few feet it takes to get wide around the buoy.

 

I think we've come up with a few problems here with how to train.

1. you aren't going to learn a harder pass if you only ski the easier passes.

2. you aren't going to learn a harder pass if you can't ski the easier passes.

 

for me I think I have to find a balance somewhere in between. Thanks to your advice I am going to start out at -15off tonight for my first set and see how it goes, will advise. thanks for you help than and chef!!!

 

[Than_Bogan]

GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN!

[ForrestGump]

One of the best things my coach ever did was have me slow to 32mph and run up from 15 off through 35 off. To show me I could do it. And so I could work on things at the slower speeds. You have time to correct mistakes so they don't carry over to the next segment of the course. Also, strap on a set of jump skis and go run the course longline starting at 25mph. Man, that will teach you how to use your hips, knees, and ankles to turn and to be patient in the preturn. I've also never seen a boat crew laugh as hard as they did last summer when I was doing that. lol. When you can run a full pass at 34mph 15 off on some 90 inch skis it will most definitely carry over to slalom skiing.

[jwroblew]

@WBLskier, to get this back on track, hard vantage point to coach from but, looks like your angle through your gate is shallow, but can't tell way. Also it looks like your skiing almost right at 2,4,6 causing you to be down course, were you have a little more space in front of 1,3,5, once again don't know why.

[ral]

Regarding starting lines v/s limit pass, I think we need to look at the pros. Is 28 off more different to 22 off than 41 off to 32 off? I really believe that 32 off WAY WAY different than 41 off. FAR more different than 22 v/s 28. And yet the pros start @ 32 off to give a shot to 41.

 

Although there are several ways to skin a cat, I have yet so see a successful skier that has a narrow range (i.e. 1 or 2) passes between their starting line and PB. I have seen many say 15 off is just too long, 22 is nothing like 28, etc... to justify stepping up the starting line length. It always ends up in failing openers, early falls and technique worsening.

 

It feels good to start sets at short line lengths. But I guess that the 3 before the hardest full pass is a valid number. So if you are targeting buoys @ 32, you should start @ 15, if @ 35, should start @ 22, @ 38, should start @ 28.

[Laz]

@killer Them thar's fightin' words.

 

We have the same coach and I'm not sure all this shadowing at short line is so good all the time. I, like you, am trying to make 28' off a routine pass. I can shadow the buoys at 35' off and look like a pro. Then I can run the course at 22' off and look terrible.

 

I think shadowing is okay for working on specific things, but it sure can lead to a false sense of security.

 

It's a challenge to go from shadowing at 32' off to running a good 15' off and maintaining all that great position you had while shadowing.

 

For now, I'll do a little shadowing to warm up, but spend most of my time trying to run buoys.

[Killer]

totally agree @Laz on going from 32off to 15 in the course. I really dont feel like I can work on my leverage/pull through the wakes at -15off. I'm traditionally an aggressive, but lazy skier (if that makes sense) I'll take a shortcut if I think I can, and skiing the harder passes prevents me or maybe teaches me I can't cheat.

 

had a decent set yesterday evening and a tired 2nd set, it was MINT! started at -22/32mph and bumped up to 34mph and eventually -28. the next set I went out at -22/34mph which was my opener for most of last season, but thinking I might start going out at 32mph right now and maybe 33 if 32 gets really easy.

 

I need to challenge myself, but also needed to get around all 6 for my confidence. 22 isn't all that different from -28, but for me I really have to work on be patient completing the turn and try to stay countered, esspecially on my offside.

 

hope to get back out friday and/or saturday AM

[Chef23]

@killer I hope your weekend skiing went well. One thing I think you need to focus on is running your early passes with the best body position that you will use at every pass. Your opener should be run wide, early and with the same body position that you would use for 28 and 32. If you don't get that body position in your early passes you can't develop it in your later ones.

[Killer]

@chef23 Thanks same to you! It did go well, only 2 sets 1 friday 1 saturday. Friday night I went out at 32/22 and then 34/22 and only had 1 nice pass in that & only ran 34/22 once. There was a fair bit of glare and I was thinking about too much.

 

Saturday was a different story. I went out at 34/22 and ran 2 nice 22s back to back. Wide and early. Shortened to 28 at 33ish mph and on my 3rd try ran all 6. Bumped the speed up to a soft 34 (17.04) and ran that one wide and early as well.

 

I agree with having good body position in easier passes sets up the harder ones. For me its a balance between challenging myself and preparing for my harder passes.

 

Starting his season differetly has also helped, I wasnt running 28 until late July last year and Im not sure I skied it that easy, wide or early before. By actually skiing 28off more early this season has helped, whether it was a combo of shadowing or simply attacking the course and learning what doesnt work, Im not sure but I feel like Im in a much better place now than any season before. That could all change if I dont getto ski again soon!!! May e it was a fluke? Im pretty sure I know what I did right so hopefully I can continue on this momentum.

 

Will be going out at 34/22 next set and lowering the speed a bit for my 28 to start. Hope I can get into 32 again soon.

 

Thanks for your help!!!