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"Fast Water" "Slow Water" Wing Changes


SkiJay
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it: Cold water is referred to as Fast Water and warm water is referred to as Slow Water. This is because cold water is denser than warm water, and creates more drag on the ski. This drag makes it harder to get wide both because the drag slows the ski down and because the slow ski gets behind you making it want to turn earlier. All this sends you at the ball narrow which makes it feel like you are going too fast. Assuming this is all true, then the opposite is true for warm water.

 

I keep reading that skiers are reducing their wing angle in response to warming water because warmer water is "slower." But warm water isn't actually "slower," it just feels slower cause it's easier to get wide and early. Clearly, warm water is less dense than cold water, making the wing less effective in warm water than it is in cold water.

 

Here's my question: As the water warms up, isn't reducing wing angle on a wing that's already less effective making a change in the wrong direction because of misleading terminology?

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1st: It’s not worth pondering; just setup the ski properly & appreciate the warm water.

 

IMHO:

1.) Cold water is SLOWER, that’s what makes it tend to feel narrower & hurried.

 

2.) Warm water is FASTER. Think about it; your widest & earliest passes consistently tend to be when the water is just right (low 80’s?, at least for us Florideans). The completed pass felt “slow” & in control, but more space was created, thus relatively greater distance in the same time = faster; just feels ”slower”

 

3.) Density of H2O varies little with temp. However viscosity & surface temp vary a fair amount. Cold water is more viscous and has greater surface tension. The ski tends to ride higher on the surface, which I think has a greater effect at the tail, creating more tip pressure in the pre-turn and facilitates tail blow-out; so less wing may help. If one bleeds too much speed though in cold water, ski gets deep & becomes more difficult to hold & re-generate velocity out of the turn (> viscosity). Warmer water is less viscous & the ability to re-generate velocity when deep is easier, allowing greater space into the next turn, the tail tends to ride lower with the lower surface tension; sometimes more wing may be considered.

 

4.) Most of is in one’s head. The whole topic is marred with varying, well-supported opinion; just ski!

 

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Being from Michigan and now in Florida I think I have decent experience with cold vs. warm water. Cold water is FASTER!!! As the temperature drops the wing angle should increase. Density of water changes very little as the temperature and really if you look at the numbers viscosity doesn't change that much. I don't really feel like doing any calculations at 10:30 so we will leave it at that. Go off of feel. Go from skiing in 50F water to 80F water, as most mid westerners do and leave wing angle constant, you will notice as the water gets warmer the ski will move through the turn slower and acceleration will decrease.

 

Personally I have went from 9 to 8 to 7 as the water has went from 75 to 85 here in Orlando. I would not ski my wing at 7 in Michigan right now, too much speed would be generated.

 

Now another thing for you guys to think about, the type of water your on, if it is clear or has a lot of sediment in it, like blue water from clay. Also the depth, if you ask any wakeboarder about ballast he would say you need more for shallow lakes then in deep lakes. At the Wake Games at OWC a few weeks back they had a new G23 loaded with ballast along with 3 fat sacks inside to get the wakes they wanted. OWC is about 8 ft deep. There is definitely a difference in shallow vs deep lakes. This is due to the fact water is liquid and liquids are in-compressable.

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I agree with @Gloersen on the change being "viscosity" rather than "density." It was a bad use of terminology on my part. But it's not all in the head. I have skied Canadian water at 40 degrees and 85 degree Florida water in the same week and on the same ski. The difference is dramatic!

 

The cold water is way more work, and getting wide is definitely tougher. It behaves slower than warm water, but cold water gets called "cold and fast" and warm water "warm and slow." So the terminology seems misleading.

 

I haven't been changing my wing angle, but was puzzling over how many ballers here say they reduce wing angle for the warmer weather. Intuitively, it seems backwards.

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When a pass is run late & narrow it feels "fast", the ski tends to be behind the skier; less space created, less overall distance traveled at a given line length (mostly less than12m)=less overall speed for the pass. Based on surface tension alone; cold water is faster, but throw in the viscosity component; the topic is clear as mud and kind of like skiing in it.

 

Curious if when the skiers up north visit our southern warm waters for coaching/training if they find upon edging out for the gates, with similar technique in cold water, then look up after doing so, find themselves way early before aligning the transition back in?

 

Fascinating stuff but cogitating the concept unlikely to yield more buoys.

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I´m with SkiJay all the way, cold water is alot of work compared to warm water.

Since I live and ski in Sweden and has been on a number of warm water ski vacations I have also felt the dramatic changes temperature have.

Wether or not to change ski setup has a lot to do wich ski I´m on and the best setup I´ve found for that particular ski.

Usually I have the ski setup for tourney season when the water hits 75 and leave it alone from there, however when I skied a Monza I absolutely had to change dft with dramatic water temperature changes and with the Sixam SS I found (for me) an ideal setting that were not to be touched regardless of temperature, go figure.

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My skiing turns to garbage on cold water, which we have on both ends of the season here in WI. I always attributed it to the additional gear I put on - wetsuit / drysuit, etc, adding weight and bulk. Plus, the human body performs better when warm and loose - at least mine sure does. I really wish I lived down south.
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When I say "fast water," I don't literally mean the speed of anything. I mean that I *feel* like I am going fast, which most likely is because I'm not slowing down and settling into the water as much. In my experience, this feeling is usually present in colder water, but also other site conditions can cause it.

 

Note that "fast" is not necessarily associated with "easy" or "hard." It's just different.

 

"Slow water" is, of course, the opposite. It *feels* sluggish -- most likely because I decelerate faster, meaning I have to build more speed. In my experience, this feeling is usually present in warmer water, but again other site conditions can cause it.

 

Since this relates mostly to my timing, I may sometimes reduce wing a little in water that feels "slow" to me, especially if I don't have time to ski it a lot and get used to it -- instead I want to fake it up so that the timing feels more similar to what I'm accustomed to at home.

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I would contend that less viscous (warmer) water allows the ski to displace more water therefore creating better angular displacement relative to the boat as it allows more surface to act upon to create the angle. Thus, warmer water allows the skier to be earlier to the buoy.
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I've studied Rossi's article on Cold Water Recommendations and it makes total sense to me. Everything he recommends is focused on making it easier to keep his ski ahead of him and to facilitate width. He has a clear understanding of what gets in his way with colder water and of what to do to address it ... including the option of reducing his wing angle.

 

@Than_Bogan's description of reducing wing angle in warmer water also makes perfectly good sense. He has a clear understanding of what gets in his way with the temperature change (the change in the feel of his timing) and of what to do to address it. This is the first time this common adjustment (less wing for warmer water) has made any sense to me.

 

The hard core physics are one thing, but feel, timing and familiarity are to be reckoned with too. Once again, what works for one guy is not guaranteed to work for another.

 

Fascinating! To me, this discussion isn't simply about getting more buoys (not that that's a bad thing). It's more about gaining an ever-deeper understanding of a pretty dynamic game. I love that skiing isn't easy and that most of it is far from black and white.

 

Chasing this knowledge is part of the fun, and you guys are awesome!

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Warm water is for sure slower. Viscosity in this sense concerns the displacement of water. As the viscosity decreases the water is displaced easier, making the ski slower, riding deeper. There is a decent difference in viscosity between 60 and 80 degrees.

 

Colder water will be more viscous meaning the water is not as easy to displace (given similar load to warm water), making the ski ride higher and faster.

 

Just trust me. I am sure @Than_Bogan can back me up on this. I have heard he is a engineer.

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As a starter I would recommend everyone to read Hortons ”Your ski is a lever”. It makes sense and it´s easier to understand how the fin works.

 

Warm water is “softer” and the ski sits deeper. (If you notice and mark where the water breaks at the front boot in cold water you will see the difference when the water warms up.) When the ski sits deeper you get more grip and it´s easier to generate and maintain the angle. You will also be able to generate more speed and ski a wider path. The ball is not coming up so fast. “Slow water”!

 

The opposite is true for cold water. The ski sits higher and you get more slip. The ball is coming up faster, even if you in reality are skiing with less speed. “Fast water”!

 

Once you realize this it´s easier to understand which move to make when water temp changes.

 

Cold water, bindings back or fin forward and the opposite for warm water. Or you just adjust your stacked position..

 

My 2cents

Tsixam

 

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@tsixam, I used to move fin back for warm water but with the Razor I have found the opposite works best.

Didn´t ski much last spring but found a really sweet setting when the water was cold that involved fin back, deeper and shorter from stock.

That is a move I generally do as the water heats up so I anticipated good things when the water finally got warm - wrong, the ski just died

and I reset everything to shortline settings and it seemed to work well again (as I said I did not ski much last season).

Reading Rossis article about cold water settings this was all in line with what he claims so I guess he knows what he is doing.

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@DanE, I´ll haven´t been messing with settings on the Razor yet. But for my old Sixam and the Elite, fin back always worked when the water got warmer. The Elite was very sensitive when it came to DFT.

Tsixam

 

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Yeah it seems contradictionary but it could be that the effects of adjustments made has a lot to do wether or not you have dialed the ski in properly to begin with, or if you´re on a borderline too big/small ski for your weight/speed.

Anyway I have experienced both school of thoughts work, allthough on different skis.

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Understanding how temperature affects water density is critical to understanding ski tuning.

 

Earlier, I incorrectly backed off my assertion that cold water is "denser" than warm water. I shouldn't have. Cold water always settles to the bottom because it's denser than warm water which settles on top.

 

So the cooler water gets, the denser it becomes. The denser it is, the more it will resist being displaced by the wing, fin, bevels, etc. Colder water, then, has to resist smear/slip/drift and speed more than warm water, supporting everything in @ChrisRossi's article.

 

In the extreme, there would be very little slip and a lot of drag skiing in a super dense liquid like mercury. Likewise, there'd be a lot of slip and very little drag skiing in water so hot it is almost steam.

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I wish you guys would actually look at the density numbers between 50F and 80F, it varies so little. Start thinking VISCOSITY! Look! http://www.epa.gov/apti/bces/module4/gravity/images/table2.gif

 

10C is 50F

30C is 86F

 

However this is a graph of viscosity, you can see that where 50F and 80F are there is a difference, more than density!

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/images/visc.gif

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Excellent charts @Triplett! Clearly, skiing in drysuit water is different than skiing in 85* water. What this viscosity chart also highlights is that wing, fin & binding changes will have a more noticeable affect on ski behavior in really cold water than they will in warm water. This suggests that it is easier for a Florida skier to ski well without ever having to touch their fin than it is for a skier from Washington or Canada where temperature swings include REALLY cold and exponentially more "viscous" water.
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